Rising 2L with 3.72 at a TT (ranked 80-90s)....to where? Forum

[John N]

After Fall 1L, I was 4th in my class and in the top 3 percent. However, I don't have a class rank for my cumulative GPA yet. I suspect my 3.72 will place me around the top 3-10 percent (class rankings will come out the 2nd week of June...ugh)

This summer I'm clerking for a small employment law firm. I also have 2 Book Awards, and good work experience prior to law school.

I have a partial scholarship, but still taking out about 20K/year.

I'm not going to bother transferring unless I can get into a school that affords me solid biglaw opportunities. I should be getting on law review, and have a significant other living in this city currently.

Edit: As far as my grades go for the entirety of 1L: 5 A's, 4 A-'s, 1 B+, and 1 B.

[buckilaw]

What city are you in? If you are in LA, Chi, NYC, DC, etc. I think the natural choice would be to transfer to the best school in the city you are currently in, so long as that school is worth transferring to.

[John N]

What city are you in? If you are in LA, Chi, NYC, DC, etc. I think the natural choice would be to transfer to the best school in the city you are currently in, so long as that school is worth transferring to.

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, without naming the city, this is not an option. The school I am at is the only law school in the city.

[emptyflare]

Here's a good guess as to your shots:

To transfer into HYS you need:
-top 5-10% at a Top 20
-top 5% at T1
-top 1% at a mid-upper T2
-Other notes: People in the top 1% in the Top 20 generally have a lock on at least one of the holy trinity. I could not find a record of anyone in the lower T2/T3/T4 transferring into HYS. Yale and Stanford only appear to take people in the T1 and up. Also, people in the T2 who transfer to Harvard are pretty much always ranked #1. People have stated that HYS only takes transfers who had a shot as an undergrad. My guess is that this is partially true for YS but not H. I do believe that you need above average softs for HYS, but the data seems to show that numbers alone can do the job.
-according to XxSpyKEx, there was 1 guy who went to HYS from a T4 because he co-authored an article or something
-according to utilitarianjac, someone with a 4.0 from Pepperdine transferred to Yale
-xeoh85, who wrote the legendary article on doing well in law school, was #1 at UCLA and was accepted as a transfer at all of HYS

To transfer into the T14 you need:
-top 10-15% at T1, top 5-10% for CCN
-top 5-10% at a T2, top 5% for CCN
-top 1-2% at a T3/T4
-Other notes: Depending on how far up you want to transfer, you may even succeed if you are ranked top 20-30%. For example, if you are transferring up like 10-15 spots, top 20-30% maybe enough (like a lateral transfer). Also, people in the T3/T4 generally only have a shot at transfer friendly schools in the T14.

To transfer into the T1 you need:
-top 10-20% at a T2
-top 5-10% at T3
-top 5% at T4
-Other notes: Depending on just exactly where you are and how far up you want to transfer, you can again make the jump by being in the top 20-30%.

Check out the entirety of that post by Arrow, as it has great info on reasons for transferring, pros, cons, etc: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 27&t=82937.

[boredatwork]

so you are top of your class in a city where you want to practice that only has one law school with minimal debt load? I think you would have to be crazy to transfer.

[John N]

so you are top of your class in a city where you want to practice that only has one law school with minimal debt load? I think you would have to be crazy to transfer.

I really want a shot at BigLaw, though. I didn't get any callbacks at 1L OCI---granted, there were only 2 biglaw firms. But most of the 5 or so students who got the summer associate positions had family/close connections to the 2 firms. And ALL of them had worse GPAs than mine...often, much, much worse (e.g. only top 30 percent)

I'm justifiably concerned the same will happen again for Fall 2L OCI.

[boredatwork]

so you are top of your class in a city where you want to practice that only has one law school with minimal debt load? I think you would have to be crazy to transfer.

I really want a shot at BigLaw, though. I didn't get any callbacks at 1L OCI---granted, there were only 2 biglaw firms. But most of the 5 or so students who got the summer associate positions had family/close connections to 2 firms. And ALL of them had worse GPAs than mine...often, much, much worse (e.g. only top 30 percent)

I'm justifiably concerned the same will happen again for Fall 2L OCI.

ok I get it you want to transfer so you will have enough debt after law school to need a big law job in order to service said debt ... IMHO I would rather have a 60k job with 60k in debt than 160k job with 260k in debt. But I guess if big law is your dream I understand. I know I have always wanted to work 2400 billable hours a year and probably burn out in 2-5.

[John N]

so you are top of your class in a city where you want to practice that only has one law school with minimal debt load? I think you would have to be crazy to transfer.

I really want a shot at BigLaw, though. I didn't get any callbacks at 1L OCI---granted, there were only 2 biglaw firms. But most of the 5 or so students who got the summer associate positions had family/close connections to 2 firms. And ALL of them had worse GPAs than mine...often, much, much worse (e.g. only top 30 percent)

I'm justifiably concerned the same will happen again for Fall 2L OCI.

ok I get it you want to transfer so you will have enough debt after law school to need a big law job in order to service said debt ... IMHO I would rather have a 60k job with 60k in debt than 160k job with 260k in debt. But I guess if big law is your dream I understand. I know I have always wanted to work 2400 billable hours a year and probably burn out in 2-5.

Well, yeah. But more than that, I want a legal job.

[boredatwork]

so you are top of your class in a city where you want to practice that only has one law school with minimal debt load? I think you would have to be crazy to transfer.

I really want a shot at BigLaw, though. I didn't get any callbacks at 1L OCI---granted, there were only 2 biglaw firms. But most of the 5 or so students who got the summer associate positions had family/close connections to 2 firms. And ALL of them had worse GPAs than mine...often, much, much worse (e.g. only top 30 percent)

I'm justifiably concerned the same will happen again for Fall 2L OCI.

ok I get it you want to transfer so you will have enough debt after law school to need a big law job in order to service said debt ... IMHO I would rather have a 60k job with 60k in debt than 160k job with 260k in debt. But I guess if big law is your dream I understand. I know I have always wanted to work 2400 billable hours a year and probably burn out in 2-5.

Well, yeah. But more than that, I want a legal job.

Ok so I am assuming your school has around a 50% employment rate in the legal field, since that seems to be about average in the T2 schools. You have previous work expereince, you interviewed well enough to get a legal job for 1L summer (I am guessing it is paid) you should be automatically admitted to your law journal and possibly order of the coif and all of that with little debt. Unless you have some glaring flaw you will get a job in the legal field. What gets missed here on TLS most of the time is that not many lawyers enter big law firms, most go to medium or small practices. Also what gets missed is that biglaw associates aren't trained to be well rounded trial lawyers, they are all largely small parts in a huge system. Is anything certain? no, could you end up jobless? sure, but If you have good legal skills and good interpersonal skills there will always be a place for you at a firm. TLS is great entertainment but it is not indicitive of the whole legal system. You are at a regional school that is the only one feeding into that legal market, in a town you like, at a school you are doing well at, presumably with close friends and family to support you, it is not worth giving all of that up for a shot at doing something that you might hate. If you hate being a lawyer now you have little enough debt that you can afford to move on, many TLSers won't have that option. It is my opinion that transfering will actually limit your options, not broaden them.

[keg411]

boredatwork, are you even in law school yet? You honestly sound like a 0L that doesn't belong in the transfer forum.

OP, your options are going to look different if you end up being top 3-5% as opposed to top 5-10%. Also, do you have ties or residency in CA, VA or NC? Also, do you have a scholarship at your current school and do you want to practice in that market?

[Xferr]

ok I get it you want to transfer so you will have enough debt after law school to need a big law job in order to service said debt ... IMHO I would rather have a 60k job with 60k in debt than 160k job with 260k in debt.

Even if you have a full ride to a law school that can guarantee you a 60k job (which OP already said he doesn't have), accruing 150k in debt at a t14 opens the door to an 160k job. You earn the difference back in two years, ignoring bonuses, and from then on you're outperforming the first option by a ton. Even if you don't care about the money necessarily, you open up a lot more options by quickly paying off your debts and then having a degree from a better school that offers more types of opportunities.

But I guess if big law is your dream I understand. I know I have always wanted to work 2400 billable hours a year and probably burn out in 2-5.

When people are asking for advice, it's usually not helpful to impose your own preferences upon them. He's not asking if he should get a biglaw job. He's asking what his chances are to transfer into a t14.



Almost everything you said in the second post is a red-herring. Of course most people don't go into biglaw - it's not an option for most people. There also aren't a lot of billionaires - that doesn't mean people shouldn't want to make a billion dollars. You either don't understand what he's asking or are insecure about your own decisions. Either way, this isn't the place for it.

[woeisme]

boredatwork, are you even in law school yet? You honestly sound like a 0L that doesn't belong in the transfer forum.

OP, your options are going to look different if you end up being top 3-5% as opposed to top 5-10%. Also, do you have ties or residency in CA, VA or NC? Also, do you have a scholarship at your current school and do you want to practice in that market?

I thought boredatwork made some solid points. Read through the short thread... OP answers some of your Qs

[keg411]

boredatwork, are you even in law school yet? You honestly sound like a 0L that doesn't belong in the transfer forum.

OP, your options are going to look different if you end up being top 3-5% as opposed to top 5-10%. Also, do you have ties or residency in CA, VA or NC? Also, do you have a scholarship at your current school and do you want to practice in that market?

I thought boredatwork made some solid points. Read through the short thread... OP answers some of your Qs

OP said SO in the city, but never specified that he/she wanted to work in that city or had major ties to the current law school city or anything like that. Or if OP really wanted to work in NYC/Chicago/DC/etc.

My point is that 0L's and people who haven't transferred (and don't have plans to transfer) should stay the out of the transfer forum because they don't know anything about the process.

[blurbz]

boredatwork, are you even in law school yet? You honestly sound like a 0L that doesn't belong in the transfer forum.

OP, your options are going to look different if you end up being top 3-5% as opposed to top 5-10%. Also, do you have ties or residency in CA, VA or NC? Also, do you have a scholarship at your current school and do you want to practice in that market?

I thought boredatwork made some solid points. Read through the short thread... OP answers some of your Qs

OP said SO in the city, but never specified that he/she wanted to work in that city or had major ties to the current law school city or anything like that. Or if OP really wanted to work in NYC/Chicago/DC/etc.

My point is that 0L's and people who haven't transferred (and don't have plans to transfer) should stay the out of the transfer forum because they don't know anything about the process.

Agreed.

OP: As Keg said, your options will depend on where you ultimately place in your class. There will be a difference if you're top 5% or top 10%--that being said, you might as well send applications everywhere you'd consider attending, especially because you might not know your ranking until later in the summer. Just get the applications in and update them with that information when it becomes available (and it's possible the adcomms will be familiar enough with your current school that they'll be able to accurately ballpark your ranking). I wouldn't worry too much about the cost of the applications: It's worth it to know you took the chance.

[SwampRat88]

boredatwork, are you even in law school yet? You honestly sound like a 0L that doesn't belong in the transfer forum.

OP, your options are going to look different if you end up being top 3-5% as opposed to top 5-10%. Also, do you have ties or residency in CA, VA or NC? Also, do you have a scholarship at your current school and do you want to practice in that market?

I thought boredatwork made some solid points. Read through the short thread... OP answers some of your Qs

OP said SO in the city, but never specified that he/she wanted to work in that city or had major ties to the current law school city or anything like that. Or if OP really wanted to work in NYC/Chicago/DC/etc.

My point is that 0L's and people who haven't transferred (and don't have plans to transfer) should stay the out of the transfer forum because they don't know anything about the process.

Agreed.

OP: As Keg said, your options will depend on where you ultimately place in your class. There will be a difference if you're top 5% or top 10%--that being said, you might as well send applications everywhere you'd consider attending, especially because you might not know your ranking until later in the summer. Just get the applications in and update them with that information when it becomes available (and it's possible the adcomms will be familiar enough with your current school that they'll be able to accurately ballpark your ranking). I wouldn't worry too much about the cost of the applications: It's worth it to know you took the chance.

[bk1]

I really want a shot at BigLaw, though. I didn't get any callbacks at 1L OCI---granted, there were only 2 biglaw firms. But most of the 5 or so students who got the summer associate positions had family/close connections to the 2 firms. And ALL of them had worse GPAs than mine...often, much, much worse (e.g. only top 30 percent)

I'm justifiably concerned the same will happen again for Fall 2L OCI.

I'm in no position to give any real advice on transferring, however I will say that you are reading way too much into 1L OCI results. The only way I could see those 1L OCI results as relevant to 2L OCI is if those 5 SA's are a significant portion of the SA's in the region your school is in.

[keg411]

Let's assume I am somewhere between top 5 and top 10 percent. Do I have a chance at Chicago, Vandy, Northwestern, Penn, Michigan?

You'd have a chance at Vandy, NU and Michigan, although NU and Michigan are more likely the closer you are to top 5%. Penn is probably out unless you're closer to top 3%, and Chicago is probably out unless you're closer to top 1%.

[Void]

OP, I just finished 2L at a TT and I was in a similar position to you last year. I stuck around because I figured I'd hold on to my spot at the top of the class, and I would have a really solid shot at getting a decent (not BIGlaw, but decent) job at the end of the line.

Honestly, looking back I wish I had more seriously considered transferring, only because my school/local area has so few employment prospects. I read on this site about schools with 40+ firms coming to OCI, whereas mine has maybe 20 at most. Had I transferred I probably would have ended up slipping down in class rank, but I would have had exposure to a lot more employment opportunities.

I ended up with a few OCI callbacks but ultimately struck out. I have something nailed down for this summer but it's not a long-term career-type position. I'm pretty confident that my 1L grade performance will have meant nothing by the time I graduate. Not a super fun position to be in.