Transfer to Davis/Hastings vs. Stay at Iowa Forum

[JOThompson]

I would love to do PI in California, preferably in San Francisco or Los Angeles. I originally chose to attend Iowa to minimize my debt, despite my reservations about the limited portability. Unfortunately, my scholarship may be reduced by up to half since I can't find an R.A. job for instate tuition purposes. I've been accepted to Davis and Hastings and I'm waiting for a decision from UCLA. This is my reasoning: if Iowa is no longer free, I might as well attend a UC school to increase my chances for west coast work. Here's my list of the pros and cons for each school:

Davis:
-Collegial atmosphere and smaller class sizes
-Relatively low COL
-Ranking climb (I don't want to emphasize this too much, since both schools have similar lawyer/judge assessment scores)
-New law building
-LRAP ($60k/year cap)

-I don't want to work in Sacramento
-Might have to purchase a car to live in Davis

Hastings:
-Access to the SF market
-PICAP/LRAP ($70k/year cap)
-Large alumni network
-No need to own a car in SF

-High cost of living
-Somewhat of a sinking ship in USNWR
-Competitive atmosphere?

Iowa:
-Great classmates
-Affordable tuition and COL

-Low Portability
-Stagnant administration
-Few employers at OCI
-No LRAP
-Lack of a large home market

I appreciate any advice you can offer.

[Regionality]

I knew that RA bs was by no means guaranteed. God I hate Iowa's admissions department and policies. I had some terrible experiences there.

Get the F out of middle of nowhere Iowa...though pray for UCLA bc Davis and Hastings are both steps down.

[ozarkhack]

The difference between Hastings' and Davis' LRAP is less about the income ceiling and more that Davis actually works to pay off your loan while Hastings marries w/IBR, which means you'll never pay off your loan but your debt payments will be itty bitty. Both are good for different reasons. (I also could be out of date regarding Davis' program. That's what it was last year, anyway.)

Hastings/Davis aren't "a step down" merely b/c Iowa has a higher ranking. If you want to work in California, they're gonna serve you much better than Iowa. That said, I wouldn't transfer if I were you unless you get UCLA. Unless you're 100% dead-set on California. You know, b/c of the debt load you're looking at from Iowa.

FYI, Hastings has ~130 interview skeds lined up for OCI, w/a couple dozen fine, market-paying firms. But you probalby don't care anyway since most of them are firms. PI/PS is what you'd be interested in for PI work. That's in February and chock full of interviewers too (and open, I believe, to Boalt & Davis students).

Also, I guarantee you that Hastings' atmosphere isn't any more "competitive" or "cutthroat" or whatever than any other similar law school. There are more people, but the class sizes are probably equivalent, the people represent the normal percentage of friendly and dick, and you can certainly make your own circle of friends and feel as intimate and sheltered away from the hordes as you could at Davis.

And the COL at Hastings doesn't have to be that much higher than at Davis. Be smart about it and it can be about the same.

Good luck to you. Happy to answer any Qs about Hastings.

[JOThompson]

I knew that RA bs was by no means guaranteed. God I hate Iowa's admissions department and policies. I had some terrible experiences there.

Get the F out of middle of nowhere Iowa...though pray for UCLA bc Davis and Hastings are both steps down.

I was initially skeptical of the R.A. program, but then deluded myself into thinking that the school wouldn't willfully mislead me on such an important issue. How ignorant that was.

Anyhow, I realize that Davis and Hastings are not much of a trade up in terms of rankings. I am pretty set on California and the west coast because all my family members live there. I think a Davis/Hastings degree would still place much better in the region than an Iowa J.D. I am worried about the price of a UC education, but I think it'll be manageable it if I can use some form of LRAP or IBR. If UCLA admits me, I'll definitely be thrilled. My second term grades took a little slump though, so I'm at best borderline competitive.

The difference between Hastings' and Davis' LRAP is less about the income ceiling and more that Davis actually works to pay off your loan while Hastings marries w/IBR, which means you'll never pay off your loan but your debt payments will be itty bitty. Both are good for different reasons. (I also could be out of date regarding Davis' program. That's what it was last year, anyway.)

Hastings/Davis aren't "a step down" merely b/c Iowa has a higher ranking. If you want to work in California, they're gonna serve you much better than Iowa. That said, I wouldn't transfer if I were you unless you get UCLA. Unless you're 100% dead-set on California. You know, b/c of the debt load you're looking at from Iowa.

FYI, Hastings has ~130 interview skeds lined up for OCI, w/a couple dozen fine, market-paying firms. But you probalby don't care anyway since most of them are firms. PI/PS is what you'd be interested in for PI work. That's in February and chock full of interviewers too (and open, I believe, to Boalt & Davis students).

Also, I guarantee you that Hastings' atmosphere isn't any more "competitive" or "cutthroat" or whatever than any other similar law school. There are more people, but the class sizes are probably equivalent, the people represent the normal percentage of friendly and dick, and you can certainly make your own circle of friends and feel as intimate and sheltered away from the hordes as you could at Davis.

And the COL at Hastings doesn't have to be that much higher than at Davis. Be smart about it and it can be about the same.

Good luck to you. Happy to answer any Qs about Hastings.

I appreciate the insight about the LRAP differences, that's all new info for me. I have a few brief questions, if you don't mind.

Where do you live? If I can't find anything in McAllister or Mission Bay, what would you recommend for convenience and relatively low cost?

For PI/govt positions, do you think that Davis has a noticeable edge over Hastings? I've spoken with a couple alums and they keep suggesting that Hastings is the school for firm work while Davis is more oriented toward PI.

Do both schools carry similar weight in southern California?

Should I be worried about the growing USNWR gap between the two schools? In other words, does that mean much for real job prospects? I try not to rely heavily on the rankings, but it's hard not to notice how Davis has pulled ahead significantly in recent years.

[ozarkhack]

Where do you live? If I can't find anything in McAllister or Mission Bay, what would you recommend for convenience and relatively low cost?

I live in the central/outer Richmond neighborhood. About a block off Golden Gate Park. A 25-30 minute bus ride to school, but I know for 100% that my $1,200 rent for 1-bd is as affordable, or more, than a smaller 1-bd in the Tower. I love it, love it, love it.

It can be tough to get a place in the city without having a couple days to just drive/bus/walk around target neighborhoods. Hayes Valley is good and close to school. Inner Sunset would be fine and not too far out. I know some people who live in North Beach. My fiancee liked Noe Valley, but it's too pricey (and too many baby strollers for my liking). Basically, if you can get a roommate or a couple of roommates, you can find a good place. And transit is prevalent enough that you should be able to find a good place w/n 10-30 minutes of school.

Also, you may get some good deals in the Tenderloin. But you may very well get tired of living AND going to school there.

For PI/govt positions, do you think that Davis has a noticeable edge over Hastings? I've spoken with a couple alums and they keep suggesting that Hastings is the school for firm work while Davis is more oriented toward PI.

Hate to be unhelpful. But I just don't know. I don't think the percentages of students going into PI/govt are that much different. Hastings may be "better" for firm work, or perceived to be so, because there are so many freekin' alums out there. Our OCI is pretty decent, too. That may affect perceptions. But overall, I think job prospects, and actual placements, are more or less similar.

Do both schools carry similar weight in southern California?

Pretty much the same, I suppose. Check this out. The chart/data includes all alums, so it's hard to know where newly minted JDs are going.

Should I be worried about the growing USNWR gap between the two schools? In other words, does that mean much for real job prospects? I try not to rely heavily on the rankings, but it's hard not to notice how Davis has pulled ahead significantly in recent years.

It does suck. I don't think it ultimately will matter for me. Or you if you come to Hastings (or go to Davis). I'm more worried at the fact that Davis has lured away two really top-shelf profs from Hastings over the last coupla years, including one who just bailed. That just should not be happening and may be indicative of some systemic problems with Hastings. But, really, by the time it's firmly established that Davis is objectively "better" than Hastings in more than the USNWR's eyes, which trends suggest will happen, it won't matter to current students.

That said, it'd be good for you to know Davis' real job numbers. Hastings reports that only 52% of the c/o 2010 had full-time, bar-required jobs secured 9 mos. after graduation (LinkRemoved). Davis' number, for the same type of jobs, is unknown.

[SchopenhauerFTW]

Whoa. The poll is stuck at a three-way tie. Thank you, ozarkhack, for your helpful posts on a topic that is relevant to my interests. Though I would like to hear some arguments for Davis (and for staying in Iowa as well). I feel as if some posters didn't read the OP, looked back at the rankings, and then voted.

[Regionality]

Well, this might help OP:

I was deciding between these exact three schools (and Wisconsin, the one I chose in the end that I am now transferring from) as a 0L.

I did not like Hastings as it felt hyper-competitive, cost of living was crazy, the school is enormous and it's dropping a lot in the rankings (indicative, predictive or irrelevant? Who knows). It's also ridiculously expensive, more so than Davis.

I did like Davis. However, I wanted a cheaper COA, so my sights turned to the midwest schools as I had lived in Chicago for 5 years and loved the region.

I got in to Iowa and Wisconsin. Iowa "nominated" me for a scholarship which they said would be "imminently" forthcoming. Well they dragged my ass along for 2 months while I checked in until finally they told me all the scholarship money had been used up (which, I may add, according to TLS and LSN was given out nearly exclusively in the form of FULL scholarships to folks with MARGINALLY better numbers...as in 1 LSAT point higher and .10 higher UGPA's). Then they said I was "nearly guaranteed" to get an RA position bringing my tuition down to in-state after the first year. Well, now as you've just experienced this was complete bogus.

I ended up choosing Wisconsin because they gave me a normal no-stip scholly. In other words, I think Iowa sucks balls and that they have terrible admissions policies. If the rest of their school is run in any similar fashion (which from the sounds of it it is since you can't find an RA position and my guess is no one gives a crap) I say get out of cornfield nowhere land and head to the west coast.

/ rant.

[ozarkhack]

It's also ridiculously expensive, more so than Davis.

Absolutely false. There are many good reasons to pick Davis over Hastings. Tuition/fees is NOT one of them. Even for OOS.

Davis est. 2011-12 fees/tuition: $45,000+.

Hastings: $40,800 (LinkRemoved).

The recently passed nightmare budget will screw that up some. But Hastings admin sent a note to students last week saying that they do not anticipate mid-year increases. Hastings, due to its weird UC-but-pseudoindependent-from-the-UC status, is a little more insulated from the vagaries of the California Legislature than Davis/Boalt. It's not safe, by any means. But it gets such a tiny slice of funding from the state (i.e., ~5%-8%), that it's way less harmful.

That $5,000 more than makes up for the COL difference between living in SF and living in Davis/Sac. I'm still not convinced it's that much more expensive. But it's certainly not $5,000/yr more expensive.

[Regionality]

It's also ridiculously expensive, more so than Davis.

Absolutely false. There are many good reasons to pick Davis over Hastings. Tuition/fees is NOT one of them. Even for OOS.

Davis est. 2011-12 fees/tuition: $45,000+.

Hastings: $40,800 (LinkRemoved).

The recently passed nightmare budget will screw that up some. But Hastings admin sent a note to students last week saying that they do not anticipate mid-year increases. Hastings, due to its weird UC-but-pseudoindependent-from-the-UC status, is a little more insulated from the vagaries of the California Legislature than Davis/Boalt. It's not safe, by any means. But it gets such a tiny slice of funding from the state (i.e., ~5%-8%), that it's way less harmful.

That $5,000 more than makes up for the COL difference between living in SF and living in Davis/Sac. I'm still not convinced it's that much more expensive. But it's certainly not $5,000/yr more expensive.

Well actually we don't know if OP is in state or out of state, and since they're only talking one year of potential in-state, the out of state tuitions are much more similar. COL is also higher in SF. But you're right, the tuition at Davis is more. I remember Davis being less than Hastings when I applied...must have misremembered or there has been a significant change in the last 2 years.

Also, you mis-quoted the Hastings tuition. It's more like 44k,

[ozarkhack]

Well actually we don't know if OP is in state or out of state, and since they're only talking one year of potential in-state, the out of state tuitions are much more similar.

True. Forgot about that possbility.

Also, you mis-quoted the Hastings tuition. It's more like 44k,

.

Nope. Hastings is $40K. LLM fees are $44K.

[Regionality]

Well actually we don't know if OP is in state or out of state, and since they're only talking one year of potential in-state, the out of state tuitions are much more similar.

True. Forgot about that possbility.

Also, you mis-quoted the Hastings tuition. It's more like 44k,

.

Nope. Hastings is $40K. LLM fees are $44K.

haha i suck at reading

[drdolittle]

That $5,000 more than makes up for the COL difference between living in SF and living in Davis/Sac. I'm still not convinced it's that much more expensive. But it's certainly not $5,000/yr more expensive.

This and the other info ozarkhack's posted about Hastings/Davis is right on the money. He's made very fair and balanced comments about the schools after going through the selection process last year, and after actually having experienced Hastings for the past year.

For anyone looking for meaningful advice on deciding between Hastings/Davis, it's best to disregard the ignorant fools who have nothing better to do than to disparage Hastings without any first-hand experience and/or by posting patently false info.

[prezidentv8]

http://daviswiki.org/ABT_49

TCR: Davis and find a way to take that class.

[Regionality]

That $5,000 more than makes up for the COL difference between living in SF and living in Davis/Sac. I'm still not convinced it's that much more expensive. But it's certainly not $5,000/yr more expensive.

This and the other info ozarkhack's posted about Hastings/Davis is right on the money. He's made very fair and balanced comments about the schools after going through the selection process last year, and after actually having experienced Hastings for the past year.

For anyone looking for meaningful advice on deciding between Hastings/Davis, it's best to disregard the ignorant fools who have nothing better to do than to disparage Hastings without any first-hand experience and/or by posting patently false info.

Dude, I was also deciding between both of these schools last year. I stand by all my opinions except that I remembered the tuition differences incorrectly. I grew up in SF, visited both Hastings and Davis, and have friends who have gone to both. I also applied, was accepted and had to deal with Iowa's admission department.

So before you get all defensive about Hastings, take a chill pill and accept that I admitted I got the tuition prices wrong. Hastings DOES have a reputation for being unpleasant, and I have heard it from multiple first hand sources. I'm not saying Davis is a pic-nic, and I'm sure plenty of people love both schools, but we're talking general trends and reputations. It's not nice to call people ignorant fools.

[drdolittle]

That $5,000 more than makes up for the COL difference between living in SF and living in Davis/Sac. I'm still not convinced it's that much more expensive. But it's certainly not $5,000/yr more expensive.

This and the other info ozarkhack's posted about Hastings/Davis is right on the money. He's made very fair and balanced comments about the schools after going through the selection process last year, and after actually having experienced Hastings for the past year.

For anyone looking for meaningful advice on deciding between Hastings/Davis, it's best to disregard the ignorant fools who have nothing better to do than to disparage Hastings without any first-hand experience and/or by posting patently false info.

Dude, I was also deciding between both of these schools last year. I stand by all my opinions except that I remembered the tuition differences incorrectly. I grew up in SF, visited both Hastings and Davis, and have friends who have gone to both. I also applied, was accepted and had to deal with Iowa's admission department.

So before you get all defensive about Hastings, take a chill pill and accept that I admitted I got the tuition prices wrong. Hastings DOES have a reputation for being unpleasant, and I have heard it from multiple first hand sources. I'm not saying Davis is a pic-nic, and I'm sure plenty of people love both schools, but we're talking general trends and reputations. It's not nice to call people ignorant fools.

What makes you think I was necessarily talking about you?

[Regionality]

That $5,000 more than makes up for the COL difference between living in SF and living in Davis/Sac. I'm still not convinced it's that much more expensive. But it's certainly not $5,000/yr more expensive.

This and the other info ozarkhack's posted about Hastings/Davis is right on the money. He's made very fair and balanced comments about the schools after going through the selection process last year, and after actually having experienced Hastings for the past year.

For anyone looking for meaningful advice on deciding between Hastings/Davis, it's best to disregard the ignorant fools who have nothing better to do than to disparage Hastings without any first-hand experience and/or by posting patently false info.

Dude, I was also deciding between both of these schools last year. I stand by all my opinions except that I remembered the tuition differences incorrectly. I grew up in SF, visited both Hastings and Davis, and have friends who have gone to both. I also applied, was accepted and had to deal with Iowa's admission department.

So before you get all defensive about Hastings, take a chill pill and accept that I admitted I got the tuition prices wrong. Hastings DOES have a reputation for being unpleasant, and I have heard it from multiple first hand sources. I'm not saying Davis is a pic-nic, and I'm sure plenty of people love both schools, but we're talking general trends and reputations. It's not nice to call people ignorant fools.

What makes you think I was necessarily talking about you?

I'm the only other person in the discussion...

[SchopenhauerFTW]

What makes you think I was necessarily talking about you?

I'm the only other person in the discussion...

Maybe drdolittle was speaking generally and not just this discussion, or even TLS(?).

[JOThompson]

Sorry that I neglected to mention my non-resident status. I received my financial aid information from Hastings today. I'm looking at $37.5K after the need-based grant is applied. Unless Davis is significantly cheaper, I'm leaning toward Hastings now due to its location and alumni network. The 23-42 rankings gap hasn't escaped my attention, but I don't think the Hastings slip will affect my employment search in the short to mid term. I'm going to visit Hastings and Davis tomorrow though and see which is a better personal fit. I'll update the thread once I've made my final decision in a few days. Thanks again to everyone who voted and posted comments.

[JOThompson]

Update: I submitted my deposit to Hastings today. Then a professor at Iowa offered me an R.A. job. Not sure what to do now that Iowa is free again. I want the west coast but not the debt of a UC education.

[IrwinM.Fletcher]

Update: I submitted my deposit to Hastings today. Then a professor at Iowa offered me an R.A. job. Not sure what to do now that Iowa is free again. I want the west coast but not the debt of a UC education.

What are your grades at Iowa?

[JOThompson]

I'm just at the top 35-40% mark. I did well first term (top 20%) but had several blah grades for the second semester. I'd like to think that my grades will go up if I work more diligently, but there's no guarantee. For west coast work, I imagine it's better to be around median at Hastings than say top third at an unknown school from another region. Then again, maybe the $60-70k price difference is worth working in a secondary midwest market for a couple years. What do you think?

[random5483]

I'd be very cautious about a lateral transfer with more debt. If you are absolutely convinced that CA is the market for you, a transfer might make sense.

FYI, Hastings OCI deadline has passed based on the discussion in another thread. So you might be out of luck with OCI. Not sure if Davis's deadline has passed.

And "median" in Hastings is not a good place to be with all that debt. A T3 or T4 student might benefit from a transfer to Hastings, but I don't see why you would. Are you that keen on working in CA? If you are fine with working elsewhere, Iowa is the better choice. If you are willing to do the leg work to apply to CA firms, and are okay with the chance that you might not get a CA job, Iowa is the better choice. If you absolutely must work in CA, then Hastings *might* make sense.