Odds: T75->HYSCCN Forum

[trizz]

T75, 4.1 GPA, #2/~300, 3 CALIs, LR, Moot Court board, full scholly, 1L SA at V10 in preferred secondary market, strong LORs, terrible UG GPA, high LSAT, skipped HLS write-on.

Chances at HYS? Worth it to transfer, if accepted, to CCN or lower?

Thank you,
trizz

[JamMasterJ]

I'm a dumbass.

[Cupidity]

very likely going to get into at least one of the big three.

Interesting use of "very" and "likely."

50-60% Odds at CCN, 10-15% Odds at HYS

[20121109]

very likely going to get into at least one of the big three.

Interesting use of "very" and "likely."

50-60% Odds at CCN, 10-15% Odds at HYS

Yes.

And this is why 0Ls should probably refrain from posting in the Transfer forum.

[Hannibal]

If I might ask, if you are #2 and got a V10 SA at your preferred market, why would you transfer?

[3ThrowAway99]

very likely going to get into at least one of the big three.

Interesting use of "very" and "likely."

50-60% Odds at CCN, 10-15% Odds at HYS

Yes.

And this is why 0Ls should probably refrain from posting in the Transfer forum.

I don't think this info is something that someone necessarily gleans from being in law school. I realize that there is a sticky 0Ls not posting in transfers though, and that in some cases the fact of being a 0L mean can make a post/thread in Transfers overly speculative. But I think that erroneous info such as the 'very likely' (to the extent that the poster was off) could just as easily come from a law student. And FWIW, I am not a 0L.

Edit: I edited it to be less snarky. My apologies for earlier unnecessary snark. Best.

[20121109]

I realize that there is a sticky about this though, and that in some cases the fact of being a 0L mean can make a post/thread in Transfers overly speculative.

All I heard, bro.

Don't really care about whether it can just as easily come from a law student...The mod team has made it very clear that 0Ls still should not post in the Transfer forum. Whatever point you're trying to argue is irrelevant.

[Cupidity]

I don't think this info is something that someone necessarily gleans from being in law school.

Note I didn't correct him because he is a 0L, I corrected him because he was wrong. Don't snark up my posts.

[JamMasterJ]

Ok, I'm sorry. Won't happen again. I thought I read it in one of the stickies on transferring to top schools. My bad

[3ThrowAway99]

I don't think this info is something that someone necessarily gleans from being in law school.

Note I didn't correct him because he is a 0L, I corrected him because he was wrong. Don't snark up my posts.

I wasn't even commenting on yours broheim.

[vanwinkle]

I don't think this info is something that someone necessarily gleans from being in law school.

They do if, say, they've been through the transfer process themselves, or have classmates who were, for example. And if there's one thing that you do "necessarily glean" from being in law school, it's how much about law school you didn't know as a 0L. Oh, and law school also teaches you that being right doesn't matter if you can't cite a proper source for it. Actual law students tend to need less admonishment about making stupid assumptions, and I'd imagine it's largely because of those two things.

Of course, whether you agree with this or not, the fact that 0Ls are told not to post here should be enough to keep them out.

[3ThrowAway99]

I realize that there is a sticky about this though, and that in some cases the fact of being a 0L mean can make a post/thread in Transfers overly speculative.

All I heard, bro.

Don't really care about whether it can just as easily come from a law student...The mod team has made it very clear that 0Ls still should not post in the Transfer forum. Whatever point you're trying to argue is irrelevant.

It may be irrelevant in terms of whether his post was acceptable, but you used the fact of an error to justify the policy, and my point is that a 1L-3L could just as easily give wrong info. So in that regard the point was not irrelevant.

[3ThrowAway99]

I don't think this info is something that someone necessarily gleans from being in law school.

They do if, say, they've been through the transfer process themselves, or have classmates who were, for example. And if there's one thing that you do "necessarily glean" from being in law school, it's how much about law school you didn't know as a 0L. Oh, and law school also teaches you that being right doesn't matter if you can't cite a proper source for it. Actual law students tend to need less admonishment about making stupid assumptions, and I'd imagine it's largely because of those two things.

Of course, whether you agree with this or not, the fact that 0Ls are told not to post here should be enough to keep them out.

Understood and in agreement. I guess sometimes I feel like the TLS policy on this is used to beat 0Ls over the head, but at the same time I do understand it, especially in so far as it advises against 0Ls starting 'chances' threads for transfer.

[vanwinkle]

T75, 4.1 GPA, #2/~300, 3 CALIs, LR, Moot Court board, full scholly, 1L SA at V10 in preferred secondary market, strong LORs, terrible UG GPA, high LSAT, skipped HLS write-on.

Chances at HYS? Worth it to transfer, if accepted, to CCN or lower?

Thank you,
trizz

I see two questions, and will address them one at a time:

1) Odds at HYS are low, but it's not impossible. It seems like Harvard takes a couple of T2 transfers a year. The people they do take are always #1 or #2 in their class, but you appear to have that covered. I think the remaining factor for Harvard will be whether or not you have substantial WE there and how they take your softs and your given reasons for wanting to transfer. If you can get in, it's obviously worth it to go. I think it's worth the app fees, if you're already going through the trouble to arrange for LORs and get your school's registrar to send out certifications, but your odds aren't great.

2) I think whether it's worth it to transfer depends largely on what you want to do. Would you be happy working in your preferred secondary market? If so, then you should just talk to the people at the firm you're currently working for, and see what they think. Having a 1L SA position is a great inroad and suggests you'll do well during OCI this fall as well. You could potentially graduate with minimal debt and still have a job in a market you want when you graduate, which begs the question ... why do you want to transfer, exactly?

[trizz]

very likely going to get into at least one of the big three.

Interesting use of "very" and "likely."

50-60% Odds at CCN, 10-15% Odds at HYS

Right. Thanks for the reply Cupidity, but the only "very likely" transfers into HYS are the CCN top 5% (1%?). If you disagree, where might I find your data? Also, personally, I have no problem with 0L speculation, but I would prefer sourced information if you have not yourself gone through the transfer process (or know others who have at your school). This forum may nonetheless have different policies, so you should probably follow those.

JamMasterJ, are those chances for each of the schools, or for the group--i.e., do you mean that at each of CCN I might have a 50-60% chance of admission, or that I have a 50-60% shot at getting into one of the three?

Hannibal, wrote this before I saw your post, but I think it is responsive:

FWIW, I talked to some Associates at the V10 I'm working at and they said that although I shouldn't have a problem getting a position as an Associate at a big firm, the relatively lesser prestige of my law school would likely affect partnership prospects down the line. The only schools, however, that they think would be worth the move are HYS, CC: they excluded NYU because I prefer not to work in NYC. They had no insights into my chances.

[20121109]

I realize that there is a sticky about this though, and that in some cases the fact of being a 0L mean can make a post/thread in Transfers overly speculative.

All I heard, bro.

Don't really care about whether it can just as easily come from a law student...The mod team has made it very clear that 0Ls still should not post in the Transfer forum. Whatever point you're trying to argue is irrelevant.

It may be irrelevant in terms of whether his post was acceptable, but you used the fact of an error to justify the policy, and my point is that a 1L-3L could just as easily give wrong info. So in that regard the point was not irrelevant.

See Vanwinkle's original post. Yeah, misinformation can obviously come from any source including 1Ls-3Ls, but its more likely to come from 0Ls rather than actual law students.

[vanwinkle]

Right. Thanks for the reply Cupidity, but the only "very likely" transfers into HYS are the CCN top 5% (1%?). If you disagree, where might I find your data?

I have to disagree with this. I think that there is a model of applicant who is "very likely" to get into Harvard, at least; that would be someone who both 1) has substantial work experience between UG and LS and 2) is either top 5% or better at a T14, or top 1% at a T25. Bonus points if the T25 is BC/BU.

My "data" is having been through the application process, successfully transferred to HLS, seen what other kinds of students got in, and, oh, let's throw in having personally spoken to HLS adcomms about their transfer admissions criteria. I think that about covers it.

FWIW, I talked to some Associates at the V10 I'm working at and they said that although I shouldn't have a problem getting a position as an Associate at a big firm, the relatively lesser prestige of my law school would likely affect partnership prospects down the line. The only schools, however, that they think would be worth the move are HYS, CC: they excluded NYU because I prefer not to work in NYC. They had no insights into my chances.

Talk to partners. Associates don't know that much about what it takes to make partner. If you can, try to talk to partners about it. If it's like any of the other big law firms there should be partners who are available to you or designated as "mentors" that you can turn to and ask for advice.

[trizz]

vanwinkle, thank you for the correction re: "very likely" and the insight into my HYS transfer prospects. Do you think the PS would matter enough in my case to try to push the envelope on my HYS apps, as opposed to playing it relatively safe (I mean, I don't imagine that my reasons for wanting to transfer are especially compelling, but I could take some risks on content and style)? BTW, I don't have significant pre-LS WE, but (though I suspect it won't matter much) I went to a very strong UG and majored in eng'g.

Any thoughts on sub-HYS transfer prospects? What about schools outside the T6? Should I assume that an even marginal increase in partner prospects is worth the $100K+?

[keg411]

You're already working in your secondary market at a V10 and will likely get an offer to return to the firm you want at the end of the summer (which will make OCI a breeze). Why take on the debt when you have LR/moot court and can pretty much do anything despite your school's low ranking.

Personally, if I had a guaranteed BigLaw job in my preferred market + LR + full scholarship, I would stay at my school and wouldn't think twice about it.

[johndhi]

Should I assume that an even marginal increase in partner prospects is worth the $100K+?

I'm suspicious of the existence of even a marginal increase. I realize the associates at your firm suggested otherwise, but my experience is that there is not much correlation between law school name and partnership prospects: there were plenty of partners from the lower-tiered schools around the firm where I paralegaled, and, in fact, it seemed like the associates were the ones from the big-name schools. Maybe this is something that might change with the times, but I really, really doubt anything other than "money talks" will be the factors in these decisions. It also sounds like the associates you talked to are buying into NYU's lower lay-prestige and not realizing how well-respected in the law community it has become.

[thesealocust]

The idea that school you attend can have an impact on partnership prospects like that is total bullshit. Partnership decisions aren't fucking resume reviews. It's going to depends on the business needs of your area of expertise + your business ability in your area of expertise + your skill in your area of expertise + your ability to not run screaming in terror for the better part of a decade of big firm practice.