T25 to T7 Forum

[Entellus]

Long time lurker.

I attend a school ranked between 20 and 25, with a half scholarship. My school is very secretive about rankings, but I'm fairly sure I'm top 10%, and there is a chance I snuck into the top 5%.

My goal is biglaw. I wouldn't mind keeping my doors open for academia, but I don't have any particular desire for a clerkship.

What are my chances at transferring to the following:
HYS
CCN
Berkeley (I'm a CA native and would like to return)

Also, how low is it worth it for me to transfer to? Should I apply to anything below T7?

[BruceWayne]

Where do people come up with these artificial dividers (T7, Top 6, etc.)? If you are at UCLA or USC I'd stay put or transfer to HYS. If not I'd aim for to HYS or Columbia. Since you have ties to California and less people from Columbia try to go to Cali than Boalt, I'd go there for less competition for California jobs. Essentially all of the big wig California firms go to CLS for OCI and they take a ton of transfers.

[Entellus]

Thanks for the response Bruce,

To clarify, my current school is outside CA.

[ClosetStateSchooler]

If I were you, I would think about programs and also look at employment statistics (location, 25th-75th percentile salaries, percent reporting etc.) BU, for example, has comparable employment statistics as some T-14 schools but less mobility. I've also heard first year OCI's are the determining factor for landing a job in biglaw, so I would take that into consideration. It would be nice to say you graduated from Stanford though...

[vanwinkle]

If you are at UCLA or USC I'd stay put or transfer to HYS. If not I'd aim for to HYS or Columbia. Since you have ties to California and less people from Columbia try to go to Cali than Boalt, I'd go there for less competition for California jobs. Essentially all of the big wig California firms go to CLS for OCI and they take a ton of transfers.

I think this is good advice. CLS does take a whole bunch of transfers, and CLS + legit CA ties might help.

(Though if you're not currently enrolled in CA, firms might ask why you've attended two non-CA schools if you want to work in CA. I think your answer just has to be something along the lines of "In both cases I chose to go to the best school I got into so I could get the best possible education. And I understand that even in CA they respect the value of a [transferred school] degree, so I came here.")

[magicman554]

Half scholly? That probably rules out GW. I'm thinking BU, UMN, or UIUC. Assuming you can get some awesome recommendations (they do matter), I think you have a shot somewhere in the T7. Try getting professors that are alumns from the school you are applying to to write reccs . And try to WRITE ON THE LAW REVIEW, at the current school and the ones you're applying to. It won't guarantee admission, but if you get on, they tell the adcomm, and it helps.

This is, of course, if you've already made up your mind to transfer. For biglaw, HYS definitely helps (because what biglaw firm doesn't want to boast another HYS diploma on its roster?), and CCNB, a tad less so. Generally, law firms look at you during OCI as if you never transferred. IOW, they interview you the same way they would someone from your current school with your current grades. Lots of people have verified this, including transfers and recruiters I've talked to. So, if scholarships is an issue, staying might actually be smart, because with top 5-10% at T25, biglaw is more than just possible. Interview well, and maybe you can save yourself the time, hassle, and money.

[vanwinkle]

This is, of course, if you've already made up your mind to transfer. For biglaw, HYS definitely helps (because what biglaw firm doesn't want to boast another HYS diploma on its roster?), and CCNB, a tad less so.

WTF? You do realize that at HLS alone there are 550 students per class, right? If a firm wants plenty of HLS diplomas on its walls it can get plenty without necessarily taking you. Plus, as much as firms love prestigious diplomas, they also love having at least some competent people in their class ranks, and keeping good relations with other top law schools. So, in a lot of cases a firm would rather take the top person at a lower-ranked school over yet another HYS student when they already have enough of those. This is bad logic, in the sense that no, firms aren't always eager to add one more HYS person to their ranks. There are some people who struck out at HLS EIP this past fall, and I've heard that from them personally.

That said, I'm only objecting to the bad logic, not the suggested outcome. If you have the grades to get into HLS, then firms generally do respect your grades plus your anticipated HLS diploma. HLS transfers seem broadly to do well when looking for BigLaw, if they're smart about the way they bid.

Generally, law firms look at you during OCI as if you never transferred. IOW, they interview you the same way they would someone from your current school with your current grades.

Who are you? This is not only false but illogical, and probably one of the crazier myths I see perpetrated on TLS. Why would anyone ever bother to transfer if they were going to be treated the exact same as if they stayed put?

Plus, it directly contradicts what you said above about how firms are happy to add another HLS diploma to their roster. If you transfer up to HYS from an upper T2, do firms take you because they're happy to have another HYS diploma on their roster, or do they reject you because they treat you the same way they would if you were still at your old school and they don't take people from your old school?

The truth is that it varies widely by firm, and there are a very few firms who come to places like HLS and bluntly tell people that they won't take someone because they wouldn't have taken them from their old school, but most firms are very eager to take transfers. It's not just because they want "another HLS diploma" but because they're getting both an HLS diploma and someone who demonstrated the grades/dedication to work their way up into the school the hard way.

I know people who transferred up from lower T14, from T25, and even as low as from some T2 schools. I do not know a single transfer who did EIP and did not get at least one offer, and I got the impression that most got several, even in the tough market we had this year. It seemed like where were coming from might matter to some firms, but it certainly didn't seem like a deal-breaker most places, and people generally did well across the board no matter where they came from.

Lots of people have verified this, including transfers and recruiters I've talked to.

"Lots of people have verified this" sounds like a great way to mask not knowing what you're talking about, until you run across someone who has firsthand knowledge.

[magicman554]

Read this first: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=142144

WTF? You do realize that at HLS alone there are 550 students per class, right? If a firm wants plenty of HLS diplomas on its walls it can get plenty without necessarily taking you. Plus, as much as firms love prestigious diplomas, they also love having at least some competent people in their class ranks, and keeping good relations with other top law schools. So, in a lot of cases a firm would rather take the top person at a lower-ranked school over yet another HYS student when they already have enough of those. This is bad logic, in the sense that no, firms aren't always eager to add one more HYS person to their ranks. There are some people who struck out at HLS EIP this past fall, and I've heard that from them personally.

This is not an equivalent analogy (and you're assuming I'm saying something else). I'm talking about someone who is already top 5-10% at a T25, adding the prestige of HYS to their diploma, not people at the dregs of HLS. You did better on your second attempt:

That said, I'm only objecting to the bad logic, not the suggested outcome. If you have the grades to get into HLS, then firms generally do respect your grades plus your anticipated HLS diploma. HLS transfers seem broadly to do well when looking for BigLaw, if they're smart about the way they bid.

Who are you? This is not only false but illogical, and probably one of the crazier myths I see perpetrated on TLS. Why would anyone ever bother to transfer if they were going to be treated the exact same as if they stayed put?

I didn't say always exactly the same (especially in the case of T25). I said "generally;" how else would they evaluate your first year grades (which is the only really substantive thing they have at OCI)?

Plus, it directly contradicts what you said above about how firms are happy to add another HLS diploma to their roster. If you transfer up to HYS from an upper T2, do firms take you because they're happy to have another HYS diploma on their roster, or do they reject you because they treat you the same way they would if you were still at your old school and they don't take people from your old school

No it doesn't, because I did not say that firms would automatically accept you because you got into HLS. I just said they wouldn't mind, and it might be a plus.

It's not just because they want "another HLS diploma" but because they're getting both an HLS diploma and someone who demonstrated the grades/dedication to work their way up into the school the hard way.

Now you're getting it!

I know people who transferred up from lower T14, from T25, and even as low as from some T2 schools. I do not know a single transfer who did EIP and did not get at least one offer, and I got the impression that most got several, even in the tough market we had this year. It seemed like where were coming from might matter to some firms, but it certainly didn't seem like a deal-breaker most places, and people generally did well across the board no matter where they came from.

And who are you to say they wouldn't have gotten these offers had they not transferred?

"Lots of people have verified this" sounds like a great way to mask not knowing what you're talking about, until you run across someone who has firsthand knowledge.

See above topic. And don't jump to conclusions.

[vanwinkle]

Read this first: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=142144

Your link is broken.

I'm talking about someone who is already top 5-10% at a T25, adding the prestige of HYS to their diploma, not people at the dregs of HLS.

Maybe that's what you meant, but it's not what you said. You said, and I quote, "because what biglaw firm doesn't want to boast another HYS diploma on its roster?" That's more broad and misleading than your much clearer and more accurate statement above. If what you said above was what you originally meant to say, it's what you should have said.

I didn't say always exactly the same (especially in the case of T25). I said "generally;" how else would they evaluate your first year grades (which is the only really substantive thing they have at OCI)?

You weren't just making a statement about how they evaluate your first year grades, you were making a statement about how they evaluate you as a candidate to their firm. You didn't say "they look at your grades the same", you said "they look at you the same". You also said that they "interview you the same" as someone with your grades at your old school, which certainly sounds like you saying they treat you the same.

Firms will look at your grades using what they know about your old school, if they're familiar with it, but that doesn't mean they look at you the same, which is what you actually said before and what I was objecting to. If you're disavowing your own prior incorrect statements, I'm okay with that.

No it doesn't, because I did not say that firms would automatically accept you because you got into HLS.

You definitely made it sound like that's how you think it works. You said, repeating it again, "what biglaw firm doesn't want to boast another HYS diploma on its roster?" That sounds like you're saying firms are always eager to take on another HYS grad, and you certainly didn't qualify it to say you were only talking about folks who had transferred. And, no, it's not obvious you only meant that to apply to transfers.

It's not just because they want "another HLS diploma" but because they're getting both an HLS diploma and someone who demonstrated the grades/dedication to work their way up into the school the hard way.

Now you're getting it!

You mean, now that I'm saying what you're claiming you said but didn't?

In that case, I'm definitely glad I spoke up and corrected you. If I hadn't, people might have believed what you wrote before, which you're now saying isn't the same as what you meant.

And who are you to say they wouldn't have gotten these offers had they not transferred?

I know people who got offers from very prestigious firms that don't even recruit at their old schools. Some of them have said themselves that they don't believe they would have gotten those offers, or even gotten interviews for those jobs, if they hadn't transferred. It's fairly obvious they have a rational basis for that belief.

And that's a lot closer to the source than you seem to be.

And don't jump to conclusions.

I can very easily jump to conclusions about what you communicated based on what you actually said. If you meant to communicate something other than what you originally said, that's your problem, not mine. I'm the one having to jump in and correct you, but at least you agree with some of my corrections. That's a start.

[vanwinkle]

Apparently you were trying to link to this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=142144

You're citing as a source to support you a thread where I said the same thing I'm saying here?

Not only that, but one where other people agreed with me, and even those who disagreed were doing so about transferring to schools below T6 and admitted things could work differently at the very top schools, which are the ones OP was asking about?

WTF? I can't even comprehend what your point was with that.

[rejectmaster]

Just want to say congrats to the TC, if you keep up your good work you will probably be desirable with a degree from your current school or one with a higher rank.

Top 10% is an awesome place to be. I guess if there's any problem I would face in trying to transfer (other than the fact that I didn't ace everything) it would be getting good recommendations, I didn't really go to see professors much and I would feel 100% awkward trying to get to know them in hopes that they would help me leave.

People who have interest in transferring/have transferred... how do you reveal your intentions?

[missinglink]

Just want to say congrats to the TC, if you keep up your good work you will probably be desirable with a degree from your current school or one with a higher rank.

Top 10% is an awesome place to be. I guess if there's any problem I would face in trying to transfer (other than the fact that I didn't ace everything) it would be getting good recommendations, I didn't really go to see professors much and I would feel 100% awkward trying to get to know them in hopes that they would help me leave.

People who have interest in transferring/have transferred... how do you reveal your intentions?

Good question. I eagerly await any answers.

I never really got to know any of my professors last semester. But it's a big school, so that must be fairly common.

My plan was to talk to this specific professor about their experience clerking, and eventually get around to asking if they would write me a recommendation. Although I didn't get to know him, I did get the highest grade in his class, so that has to count for something.

[Blindmelon]

Top 10% at a school that range is pretty awesome man congrats. Top 10% + ties can give you more mobility depending on the school you're at currently. People here at BU who are on law review (presumably good grades) are summering in firms in the OC, Seattle, NY, DC and other cities.
I personally would only transfer if you could get into a HYS range or maybe CCN. Outside that, if you can pull LR where you are and keep up your grades (pretty big if there though), having the half scholly might make it enough of a reason to stay.

[vanwinkle]

People who have interest in transferring/have transferred... how do you reveal your intentions?

1) This is not something I did just for the benefit of transferring, but because it's good practice in general: I would talk with my professors outside of class, usually during office hours. I would make sure I had something worth talking about so I wasn't wasting their time, but I would certainly go to them for clarification on something or to get feedback.

(If you haven't really talked with professors that much, but you got one of the top grades in their class, they'll probably still assume that you paid attention in class and were an attentive student, though they might not be able to give you the kind of personalized letter that helps the most.)

2) Hopefully by the time you're ready to transfer, you know at least two professors who know you pretty well and who gave you strong grades. These are the people you'll want to go get transfers from.

3) I made clear I wasn't certain about transferring yet, but that I was considering it, and to even have a chance at it I needed strong recommendation letters, and I would appreciate their help whether I ended up transferring or not.

Interestingly I had totally opposite reactions from the two professors I approached. I don't mean that either of them said no, because they both said yes (they were both the kind of people to want to help their students, even with transferring out). But one said "I'd be glad to, even though I'll miss you when you're gone" and the other said "I'd be glad to, though I hope you don't get your hopes up too much about trying."

Only one of them was right, but I still gave them both thank-you gifts after I got in anyway.

[A&O]

vanwinkle is correct. magicman is wrong.

[rejectmaster]

thanks, van.

[missinglink]

People who have interest in transferring/have transferred... how do you reveal your intentions?

1) This is not something I did just for the benefit of transferring, but because it's good practice in general: I would talk with my professors outside of class, usually during office hours. I would make sure I had something worth talking about so I wasn't wasting their time, but I would certainly go to them for clarification on something or to get feedback.

(If you haven't really talked with professors that much, but you got one of the top grades in their class, they'll probably still assume that you paid attention in class and were an attentive student, though they might not be able to give you the kind of personalized letter that helps the most.)

. . .

Ugh. Exactly what I was afraid of. I'll have to try anyways, since the ED app will be due before second semester ends, so I won't be able to solicit letters of rec from those professors. Although I am getting along well with one of my current profs. I wonder if he would be inclined to write a letter or rec without the benefit of a grade in his class?

Thanks for the responses.

[Lawl Shcool]

vanwinkle's advice ITT > magicman's advice ITT

[vanwinkle]

Hmm. So, magicman554's post history makes clear that he is a 0L. I could swear we had some rules for 0Ls to read before they started posting in the Transfers forum... oh, wait, there are.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 9#p3256006

So that he doesn't confuse anyone else or waste anyone's time with bad advice, I've given him a warning that he will be banned for trolling if he continues posting in this forum. Seriously, 0Ls need to GTFO, or at least stop pretending they know what they're talking about.

[Entellus]

Thanks for the good advice everyone. Any thoughts on how far up in the ranks is "worth" transferring to to maximize my chances at biglaw?

[Entellus]

Also, does anyone want to venture how good my chances are at HYS if I did indeed sneak into top 5%?

[ndirish2010]

You're not at Notre Dame are you? I would say it's either here or UIUC. If you are, PM me.