GULC v. T2 (With Poll!) Forum

[xferAlt]

Now that the elation of being accepted to at T14 has almost worn off, I'd like help from the brutal honesty that is TLS. I'm the (authorized) alt of a long-time poster who has attempted to help others with similar decisions in the past, and I'm pretty sure I have my mind made up. I want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious and/or important.

Where I'm At
Right now, I'm exactly top 5.64% at my mid-T2. Sorry for the anonymity, but I know for a fact my main username is being monitored by the career services office. I really like it here. Lots of friends, graded onto law review, great schedule this fall full of courses I'm interested in.

OCI has about 25 unique employers interviewing, and I'm fairly confident that (at number 11 in my class) I'll be able to land something paid for next summer, though probably not doing what I want (see below).

Kicker #1: I'm all but assured (through my school's externship placement program) that I will have the option of interning for a federal judge this fall. Obviously, if I transfer, this option will disappear.

Kicker #2: I'm from the neighboring state than the one in which my law school sits. I have no problem staying in the state where my law school is located. I came here fully intending to graduate. I was shut out as a 1L at spring OCI. Not unusual ITE, I realize, except for those who were 15-20 spots lower than I am in my class (but from the home state) securing paid gigs. However, I had more than one firm tell me at callbacks that they liked me, but were sure I would use them for a SA gig and then jump ship back to my home state. The dispositive question seems to be "Where in [state x] does your family live?" Not "What are your connections here?" or "Can you convince us you want to stay here?" Frustrating, but whatever. Long story short, I'm worried about being able to secure the type of position I'm interested in (market midlaw) because I'm not from this state.

Kicker #3: our career services website is utterly, completely and incompetently useless. Words cannot describe my frustration. I would rather have every tooth pulled from my mouth with out anesthesia than deal with them.

I'm currently paying around $18,000 per year to live here and the cost of living is average. Current T2 is completely unwilling/unable to negotiate scholarships, which is understandable, since I'm not technically the top of the class.

Where I Could Go
Basically, I'd be looking at a T14 education at a 2 year price. Difference would be a little more than $50k in student loans, total, for both years. No debt from UG, thankfully. At this point, it's $80k in student debt at GULC v. $30k in student debt at my current T2.

Unfortunately, OCI deadlines have passed at GULC for transfers, I think. I would be working with CSO to place me, a transfer student. I've also been told that I would be viewed as a slightly-above-median student at GULC by potential employers.

Where I Want to End Up
1) Dallas biglaw. I'm from Dallas, know the legal market, and have a few (read: 3) contacts at big law firms which pay market rate. I want to practice in Employee Benefits/ERISA or a tax-related field.
2) D.C. big/midlaw. I don't care. I love the city and would happily work here for the rest of my career, but want to be able to pay debt back.
3) DOJ/DOL/A-US-A. Particularly the civil division. Solid job security, interesting work, fantastic work-life balance. Or so I'm told.

What Route I Want to Take to Get There
Straight out would be nice. However, I really want to clerk for a year or two at the federal level and then move to biglaw. No illusions of grandeur (SCOTUS or COA).

Sage wisdom of TLS: should I transfer to GULC or stay at my T2?

[selfloathingtransfer]

I think I have sage wisdom, but maybe not on topics like this, unfortunately. However, in case you care what I think (maybe you shouldn't) here it is:

GULC should lead you directly to one of your three goals - (DC big/mid).

DOJ/DOL I'm sure you could get into one of them or something comparable by going to GULC, even if you have to work elsewhere in the city for a few years first.

AUSA - I don't know.

Dallas - I'm sure a local who had gone off to GULC for law school could move back and get a job in Dallas if you convinced them you wanted to stay there. Biglaw? I guess. I don't know. Would you settle for midlaw if you had to?

In any case, I think GULC is your best option. It will stick out on your resume your entire career. It sets you up nicely for at least one of your goals, if not more. Just do it.

[A'nold]

I'm pretty sure I know who this is, and I say TRANSFER.

[xferAlt]

I'm pretty sure I know who this is, and I say TRANSFER.

Shhh...

[bwv812]

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[concurrent fork]

Try asking GULC career services how many of the 81 transfers they took lat year ended up getting a biglaw SA. Then ask them how many transfers who missed the OCI deadline got an SA. I doubt you'll get a real answer to either question, but even their rough responses to these questions may be sobering (or encouraging, though I'd be very surprised).

Exactly. Missing OCI as a transfer would make me very nervous.

Even if we assume you land some interviews with Dallas employers (maybe through networking, resume bombs, or CSO vodoo), everyone will ask why you transferred. You need to have a persuasive answer lined up. This could be a tall order since you already have great grades at a school that borders TX and presumably feeds into that market.

Also as above poster covered - many GULC students will strike out at OCI. You are at a disadvantage by starting as one by default. You must compete against these students (and potentially many others from higher T-14s) without DC ties. I know very little about the DC market specifically, but generally this is a tough position to be in. Who knows, you could get lucky and still land a SA gig from a resume drop.

[xferAlt]

I would definitely stay. DC biglaw or midlaw will probably be difficult for you at GULC, extremely so if you can't get any OCI interviews. You'll have to hustle to get a job, which isn't much different than if you stay at your T2 and can't get anything through your OCI. Yes, Being at GULC will mean you're in DC, but there are probably 1500-2000 other 2Ls in the DC area alone — not to mention all the other T14 students who want DC — that you'll also be competing against. If you are a super networker maybe you could make something happen in DC, but this is far from being a sure thing.

Career services here isn't great, and they are unlikely to be of much help beyond OCI, which is to say they won't be of much help to you. And if you even got 1L callbacks, then that's pretty solid and suggests placement from your current school shouldn't be terrible. I suspect your interviewers were more wary because under the traditional employment model 1L summers end up going elsewhere, while 2L summers end up coming back. All you have to do is work on giving a good answer as to why you want to stay in the region you're interviewing, even if they don't ask the question that way.

Going directly into a fed gov job also seems tough.

Also:
Try asking GULC career services how many of the 81 transfers they took lat year ended up getting a biglaw SA. Then ask them how many transfers who missed the OCI deadline got an SA. I doubt you'll get a real answer to either question, but even their rough responses to these questions may be sobering (or encouraging, though I'd be very surprised).

Thanks for your detailed response. A lot to consider, and I took most of it to heart. Spoke with career services at GULC this morning for about half an hour. The short of it was that I hung up the phone very impressed and optimistic. As we both expected, they didn't have (or want to release, not sure which) numbers for transfer students last year. He said almost all of them got paying gigs, though he knows for sure it wasn't 100% placement. He said quite a few went to secondary markets near where they grew up/went to UG/etc.

There's a 'back-door' of sorts for transfer students to make full use of the Early Interview Week as well as several other OCI events and resume collects, in which I would be able to fully participate. Further, since I'm not dead set on DC or NYC, the people I spoke with seemed (admittedly, a little too) confident a simple resume-bomb would yield interviews, at which it's up to me to sell myself, same as at my current school.

Also: turned away again by current T2 during scholarship negotiations.

[xferAlt]

Try asking GULC career services how many of the 81 transfers they took lat year ended up getting a biglaw SA. Then ask them how many transfers who missed the OCI deadline got an SA. I doubt you'll get a real answer to either question, but even their rough responses to these questions may be sobering (or encouraging, though I'd be very surprised).

Exactly. Missing OCI as a transfer would make me very nervous.

Even if we assume you land some interviews with Dallas employers (maybe through networking, resume bombs, or CSO vodoo), everyone will ask why you transferred. You need to have a persuasive answer lined up. This could be a tall order since you already have great grades at a school that borders TX and presumably feeds into that market.

Also as above poster covered - many GULC students will strike out at OCI. You are at a disadvantage by starting as one by default. You must compete against these students (and potentially many others from higher T-14s) without DC ties. I know very little about the DC market specifically, but generally this is a tough position to be in. Who knows, you could get lucky and still land a SA gig from a resume drop.

Now that I'm not exactly "missing" OCI (see above post), I'm slightly less nervous. As for why transfer to Georgetown, I have only spoken with one attorney in the Dallas market so far who has suggested that it's a 50/50 decision in my particular situation. His advice was to transfer if I wanted to do biglaw in Dallas, or if I wanted to work in any other city. Or if I had ambitions above a firm gig. Basically, he said to make sure I'm ok with working a midlaw job or as a prosecutor if I wanted to stay at current T2.

In short, no one has questioned why I would want to transfer. It's such a huge jump in almost every category that few people question the prospective move, other than cost. I'm mainly considering it for the increased mobility of going to a national law school. I'm not set on the DC market. More the type of work that a large percentage of GULC grads go into. If it happens that I start my career in DC, that's just gravy.

[xferAlt]

Also, thanks to everyone who is participating in the poll. I really appreciate the advice, particularly the detailed responses by those who tell me to stay. Those who advise transferring, aside from "zOMG it's a T14!!!!," are there any particular reasons why you voted that way?

[CanadianWolf]

Assuming that you are currently studying in the land of entrapment, then you need to transfer to Georgetown unless the externship with the federal judge is guaranteed & a primary goal of yours.

[bk1]

Question if you're willing to field it (I understand if you don't want to):

How do you know your username is monitored by your OCS? What do you have to fear from them if they did know about your transfer option?

[xferAlt]

Assuming that you are currently studying in the land of entrapment, then you need to transfer to Georgetown unless the externship with the federal judge is guaranteed & a primary goal of yours.

A federal clerkship is definitely a goal, albeit a far-fetched one. A federal internship, not as much. Though it would still be a sweet opportunity. Since I don't have it locked down at this point, it's not guaranteed. I'm the only person I know of who is applying, though.

[xferAlt]

Question if you're willing to field it (I understand if you don't want to):

How do you know your username is monitored by your OCS? What do you have to fear from them if they did know about your transfer option?

PM'd

[Indubitably]

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[sundevil77]

You mean GeorgeTTTown the diploma mill? Nuf said.

[let/them/eat/cake]

Question if you're willing to field it (I understand if you don't want to):

How do you know your username is monitored by your OCS? What do you have to fear from them if they did know about your transfer option?

PM'd

now i'm curious

[selfloathingtransfer]

Question if you're willing to field it (I understand if you don't want to):

How do you know your username is monitored by your OCS? What do you have to fear from them if they did know about your transfer option?

PM'd

now i'm curious

+1!

[bwv812]

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