Tier 3 v. Michigan Forum

[transfer4545]

I have recently been admitted to UofM as a transfer student but am having cold feet about walking away from a full-ride, law review, and #1 ranking at a neighboring TTT. My goal is to work for a big firm in either Grand Rapids or Detroit. My concern is whether by transferring to Michigan I will wind up with the same job that I would have had if I had stayed at the TTT but paid $90k more for it. I am extremely risk adverse and have heard things on ATL that say some less than impressive things about Michigan's career services and the fate of some of their students.

I know that it's pretty hard to find jobs coming out of any law school ITE, let alone a TTT, but I am clinging to the thought that the #1 ranking at the state's arguably #2 law school would give me a chance to be making six figures in Michigan with zero debt upon graduation.

Is this analysis too short sighted? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

[holydonkey]

If big law is hiring in Detroit, I can't imagine they wouldn't take the #1 student at Wayne State or Michigan State. Maybe it does make sense to stay if you know you want to stay in Michigan. It's not like you're thinking about Chicago, NYC, or DC. If the money was the same, I would think transferring is obviously the right call, but the cost difference is pretty big. I still think I would transfer if only because Mich would give you options in Chicago/Columbus if Detroit just isn't hiring and you're only paying 2 years of tuition. I don't know, really tough call man.

[thexfactor]

i think this is one of the few cases that I would say stay at your school.

Most of the people at biglaw firms in detroit graudated from msu/wayne UD....
Being number 1 will help A LOT in motown.

[chitown825]

Stay. Congratulations on your acceptance, though, but you deserve even more congratulations for your #1 ranking, LR, and full ride.

[CanadianWolf]

Your analysis is not short-sighted, although probably a bit provincial. The irony is that the third tier law school scholarship that grants you the financial freedom to pursue any path, also restricts you geographically in a practical sense because it is a tier three law school. So the real issue may be what type of freedom do you want more--financial or geographical?.

[romothesavior]

Stay.

[trialjunky]

I'm jumping on the stay bandwagon (You should create a poll)!

[solidsnake]

I think you should transfer. The quality of your classmates is half of your legal education. And career plans change. Go to a school your kids will be proud of.

[nealric]

I would transfer in a heartbeat. Although it isn't fair, many people will still see you as a "TTT Graduate" regardless of where you rank. UM will command respect no matter where you end up ranking there.

[MrKappus]

If you want Grand Rapids/Detroit and are debt averse, you have little to gain by going to Mich. They have a huge class and their OCI's not great (by T14 standards).

[seespotrun]

If Biglaw in your home market is the be-all-end-all for you, then you have nothing to gain except prestige. Prestige is something that you'll have to value. You have to ask yourself if the prestige of a Mich. JD is worth ~$90k? If yes, transfer. If not, stick around.

[najumobi]

iyou'll definitely land that big law job in detroit. if you want to move to a different region after a couple of years it will probably be the caliber of your work at that firm that will determine how easy or hard it will be for you to move.

save yourself 90k.

[jdhonest]

the driving question(s) for the OP should be the following: are you certain that you'd like to work in those cities for the rest of your life? At your age, how certain can you be of anything?

No offense to your home state, but you may find that career and life opportunities are more abundant elsewhere, making your decision to stay something of a liability. 90k can be paid back, but there's no LRAP for life regret. Good luck with your decision.

[vanwinkle]

You might be the rare person who should stay. However, give it serious thought. If you want the law firm salary you'll be in a position to pay off $90K or so within a few years, especially with the low COL there. It might be worth the extra money. On the other hand, you'll be at Michigan, but just some guy at Michigan... Giving up #1 status and LR and everything is a lot. If anyone can get a job from your school ITE, you already know it's you. You'll be building your reputation up again from the ground up at Mich.

Good luck. It's a tough call.

[oscarthegrouch]

If you want Grand Rapids/Detroit and are debt averse, you have little to gain by going to Mich. They have a huge class and their OCI's not great (by T14 standards).

Based on what I have heard, Mich placed at least as well as the t-14, minus HYSCCN, at OCI.

It's a tough choice though. Getting into a large firm in Detroit is pretty competitive, and based on GPA data I have seen, more competitive than large primary markets like NYC and Chicago (at least from the t-14). I don't know anything about Grand Rapids, but if you want to work for a place like Honigman, you typically need better grades than you do for the main markets.

[OnWisconsin]

If you're considering GR, and I would, Eastern Michigan sans Ann Arbor and the surrounding burbs is a festering wound on the state (nation?), I would say GO BLUE.

GR is an extreme example of the "good ol' boy" mentality. To initialy open doors in that town you really need one of two things, either be born and raised in East Grand Rapids and have played lacrosse with a partners son in HS, or have a big fat M stamped on your forehead.

I lived in GR for a few years, did some networking before law school to get a lay of the land, and was pretty much told by a partner at Miller Johnson over lunch that they summarily pitch applications that don't come from prestigious institutions or if they don't alreayd have an "in" with the firm.

That being said, you still might have more latitude because of your class rank. Just know GR is operated by old school, white, Dutch (better have Van or De in front of your name), men with a death grip on the helm.

[selfloathingtransfer]

I think the key question is whether OP prefers to have more financial freedom straight out of law school or more geographic freedom. Financial = Stay, Geographic = UM.

Also, while OP is probably going to keep a very high ranking, there's no guarantee OP will keep THE #1 ranking. What if OP slips to . . . #2, #5? How much does that change things, if at all?

[romothesavior]

The problem with making a poll like this is that many people just vote without even reading the thread. They see T10 vs. TTT and they just vote impulsively.

IMO, this is not that hard of a decision: gunning for the Michigan market as the #1 person in your class with law review and little debt is INFINITELY better than being a transfer to Michigan with potentially no law review and 6 figures of debt. I'd really like to hear from the 12 who voted otherwise.

[seespotrun]

.
Also, while OP is probably going to keep a very high ranking, there's no guarantee OP will keep THE #1 ranking. What if OP slips to . . . #2, #5? How much does that change things, if at all?

It doesn't change things at all. He wants Biglaw, not a fed. clerkship.

[ggocat]

Good luck. It's a tough call.

This. I don't think there is a "right" answer economically (i.e., whether $90K plus interest is "worth" the Michigan degree in a monetary, career improvement sense). And if there is a right answer, you'll never know with certainty.

Nealric's comment is probably accurate -- you will likely have more credibility/respect coming from Michigan, at least with people who don't know you well (maybe opposing counsel, judges).

I think seespotrun's comment touches on something important -- this is likely an intangible decision. Some people would (and do) pay a lot more than $90K plus interest for a Michigan degree. But keep in mind that some people pay a lot more than $90K for a TTT degree. The value of the degree is different for different people.

I voted to stay, partly because I like being an underdog; that's just who I am. But mostly I voted to stay because you never know you'll want to stay in biglaw for the long haul, and having the extra $90K plus interest in the early party of your career will allow you to be less tied to the biglaw job.

[kazootey]

Here's my question: Who is more likely to be a better lawyer, a middling UM law student, or a student at the very top of a TTT class?

Is being #1 at a third tier institution really that great? I am not asking to sound like a jerk, but from reading TLS it sounds like most TTT's are not worth going to (which I disagree with). I don't know for myself, hence the question.

Oh, and since I am a Wolverine myself, GO BLUE! Go to Ann Arbor and don't look back.

[romothesavior]

Here's my question: Who is more likely to be a better lawyer, a middling UM law student, or a student at the very top of a TTT class?

This question is loaded, silly, and irrelevent to whether or not OP should transfer or not.

[270910]

One of the toughest calls I've ever seen. I lean towards stay, given that you are actually numero uno. But even I am unsure of myself...

[270910]

Here's my question: Who is more likely to be a better lawyer, a middling UM law student, or a student at the very top of a TTT class?

Is being #1 at a third tier institution really that great? I am not asking to sound like a jerk, but from reading TLS it sounds like most TTT's are not worth going to (which I disagree with). I don't know for myself, hence the question.

Oh, and since I am a Wolverine myself, GO BLUE! Go to Ann Arbor and don't look back.

First year law school exam performance is a very poor proxy for ability as a lawyer. Just like the LSAT, if you look at a large enough sample you'll see enough correlation to allow you to use (the LSAT or the 1L GPA/law school) as a proxy for hiring decisions, but looking at any small set of individuals and trying to predict lawyering ability would be farcical.

[kazootey]

Here's my question: Who is more likely to be a better lawyer, a middling UM law student, or a student at the very top of a TTT class?

This question is loaded, silly, and irrelevent to whether or not OP should transfer or not.

I don't care about the impact of this on the decision, I just want to know.