T4, law journal, accepted at T2 Forum

[makaf2000]

T4, law journal, accepted at T2

Hi, looking for educated opinions. I am at T4 school in a small town.
Decent grades but I am not in the top of my class. Got onto law journal right after I was accepted as transfer student at Camden (I have good work experience).
Pros: So, I am not in the top of the class but got on the Law Journal, have good relationship with professors, it is inexpensive to live in the area,
tuition costs are 30%-40% less than Camden.
Generally, current T4 school has nice environment, plenty of recreational opportunities in the area, etc.
Cons: T4, not near any major legal market where I want to practice, in fact, not near any major legal market at all, not really known school,
few to none opportunities for p/t paying jobs during school and definitely very little opportunities here after graduation.

I have an option to compete for Camden law journals in the fall.

My goals: practice in major city, probably with a firm or a government in DC, Phily or such, because I have foreign language skills and work experience.
Chicago or SF were other options but I have not heard from those similar ranking schools there (USF, DePaul)

Any ideas or related comments about Camden besides the fact that it is a commuter school?

Thank you all

[arstech]

I could be wrong, but it strikes me as unlikely that most employers will (or even could) differentiate between a T2 and a T4. As such, I think that taking the significantly cheaper tuition at your current school is a better plan.

Of course, all this changes if my premise is wrong; i.e., if employers actually do differentiate.

[thecilent]

It's not all a commuter school. I have friends that will be going there in the fall in the apartments right near the campus.

If you want to work in South Jersey / Philly, I would transfer.

[makaf2000]

The thing is, from my current school, most students go back to their home states, or set in MO or IL (Including Chicago, even though it is not very close). I was considering either Phily/DC, Chicago or SF (CA), with more chances of landing a job in DC due to my background. My school charges 14-15K for tuition while Camden charges 23+K in-state tuition. How about the overall reputation of Camden? Placement? Living in the area? Would law journal without top 10% grades at small T4 be more preferable than, say, top half of the class in Camden without journal or moot court?

[nahgems]

In your position, I would probably transfer. I'm in a similar spot (T4, barely top 10%) and hoping to transfer to Temple.

[makaf2000]

Frankly, two most important issues that make this a tough decision are costs (even though Camden is a decent value), and law journal thing. I might not get in LJ at Camden. And, my grades are not even in top 20%.

[thecilent]

Frankly, two most important issues that make this a tough decision are costs (even though Camden is a decent value), and law journal thing. I might not get in LJ at Camden. And, my grades are not even in top 20%.

Transfer.

[reverendt]

Transfer.
Rutgers is a pretty good school, and if you know you want Philly, T4 is probably not gonna cut it.

[makaf2000]

Generally, I want DC and/or Phily. I did not get into one of the DC schools I wanted, and still waiting on response from Catholic. Nevertheless, here are my thoughts:
I can settle for a decent mid-size firm or a boutique vs. Big Law. I would have 170-175K debt if I graduate from Camden, and 140-145K debt if I graduate from my current school (I have loans from my previous education). After Camden, my payments will be close to 1000$, after my current school, about 750$. With extended payment plan, I would need to make min of 70K after Camden or min of 60K after my current school. I am not sure if there is such a huge difference in terms of costs at this point. If I get an interesting position in the government, which is a possibility due to my background, I can choose to deffer my payments or get my debt eliminated after 10 years of service. I just want to be close to my target marked and get a decent local degree. Any thoughts?

[2009 Prospective]

I vote for transferring. Also, I'm pretty sure you can get in-state at both Rutgers locations simply by signing a lease somewhere in Jersey. I believe there's one halfway decent complex right near the school in Camden or you could live in one of the nearby South Jersey suburbs if you don't want to be in depressed Camden.

I don't think Rutgers will offer you any gaurantees but based on what you say, sounds like your current school isn't going to get you much of anywhere in Philly / DC. Rutgers on the other hand should give you at least some opportunities in Philly and South Jersey, though I wouldn't necessarily count on anything through OCI.

[makaf2000]

Any more ideas? Any ideas against such transfer?

[CanadianWolf]

It's hard to offer solid advice without knowing your current school. My best guess is that it is either Northern Illinois or Southern Illinois. Assuming that I am correct & understanding that you want to practice in Philadelphia or Washington, D.C., then you should transfer. If you wanted to practice in the Midwest, then I would recommend staying at your current law school.

[jp0094]

TRANSFER

Invest a lot of energy into the transfer LR competition. Camden + LR can probably net you a semi-decent job. Your 20%+LR @ a T4 won't do much.

[makaf2000]

There is an option to go to Chicago after graduation, even though it is a second choice. What do you think?

[bwv812]

.

[Hinkleymustang]

Stay, when you transfer you will not get any scholarships and will have to borrow much more then you do now, assuming you have a scholarship. Employers do not exactly embrace transfer students, so in this economy you should really consider your debt obligation.

[A'nold]

Stay, when you transfer you will not get any scholarships and will have to borrow much more then you do now, assuming you have a scholarship. Employers do not exactly embrace transfer students, so in this economy you should really consider your debt obligation.

I hate it when people post their opinions without reading through the thread.

[spanktheduck]

Generally, I want DC and/or Phily. I did not get into one of the DC schools I wanted, and still waiting on response from Catholic. Nevertheless, here are my thoughts:
I can settle for a decent mid-size firm or a boutique vs. Big Law. I would have 170-175K debt if I graduate from Camden, and 140-145K debt if I graduate from my current school (I have loans from my previous education). After Camden, my payments will be close to 1000$, after my current school, about 750$. With extended payment plan, I would need to make min of 70K after Camden or min of 60K after my current school. I am not sure if there is such a huge difference in terms of costs at this point. If I get an interesting position in the government, which is a possibility due to my background, I can choose to deffer my payments or get my debt eliminated after 10 years of service. I just want to be close to my target marked and get a decent local degree. Any thoughts?

Your goals seem unrealistic. Top 20% at T4 generally don't "settle" for midlaw or boutiques, especially in DC. Biglaw is out of the question. Federal gov't employment is very competitive, especially the "interesting" positions. I hope you have a great background, if this is what you want.

Practicing in your law school's region is a much more realistic goal, and I would base my decision accordingly.

TITCR. Transfer only if you want to work in that region. T2 and T4 grads are going to network their way to jobs, they do not get hired at midlaw or biglaw firms. You should transfer if you want to work around Camden, you should stay if you want to work where you school is located (I realize you don't want to). If you don't want to work either, I would probably stay, b/c LJ (is this the same as LR?) is better than no LJ and coming from a T4, you will need all the help you can get. There are no real differences between T2s and T4s for employment as long as the T4 isn't a school like Cooley or unaccredited.

[Hinkleymustang]

Stay, when you transfer you will not get any scholarships and will have to borrow much more then you do now, assuming you have a scholarship. Employers do not exactly embrace transfer students, so in this economy you should really consider your debt obligation.

I hate it when people post their opinions without reading through the thread.

lol - I hate it when ppl post without adding anything to the discussion. Makaf2000, form someone who has successfully transferred (not saying you have not or will not A'nold) your debt obligation should be at the top of your list of worries. I am in the top of my 3L class and to be honest if employment prospects are tough at my school then they are going to be poor at a T2. If you want to be in Philadelphia or any other city then the most important thing is to network. You have already begun your network as a 1L you will have to start over as a transfer. If this was 2006 then I would transfer in a heartbeat, but times have changed.

[A'nold]

Stay, when you transfer you will not get any scholarships and will have to borrow much more then you do now, assuming you have a scholarship. Employers do not exactly embrace transfer students, so in this economy you should really consider your debt obligation.

I hate it when people post their opinions without reading through the thread.

lol - I hate it when ppl post without adding anything to the discussion. Makaf2000, form someone who has successfully transferred (not saying you have not or will not A'nold) your debt obligation should be at the top of your list of worries. I am in the top of my 3L class and to be honest if employment prospects are tough at my school then they are going to be poor at a T2. If you want to be in Philadelphia or any other city then the most important thing is to network. You have already begun your network as a 1L you will have to start over as a transfer. If this was 2006 then I would transfer in a heartbeat, but times have changed.

Are you trying to tell me that the difference b/w a t4 at 16k or whatever and 23k at Rutgers, a t2, for the last two years should actually have any role in this decision?

[Hinkleymustang]

Stay, when you transfer you will not get any scholarships and will have to borrow much more then you do now, assuming you have a scholarship. Employers do not exactly embrace transfer students, so in this economy you should really consider your debt obligation.

I hate it when people post their opinions without reading through the thread.

lol - I hate it when ppl post without adding anything to the discussion. Makaf2000, form someone who has successfully transferred (not saying you have not or will not A'nold) your debt obligation should be at the top of your list of worries. I am in the top of my 3L class and to be honest if employment prospects are tough at my school then they are going to be poor at a T2. If you want to be in Philadelphia or any other city then the most important thing is to network. You have already begun your network as a 1L you will have to start over as a transfer. If this was 2006 then I would transfer in a heartbeat, but times have changed.

Are you trying to tell me that the difference b/w a t4 at 16k or whatever and 23k at Rutgers, a t2, for the last two years should actually have any role in this decision?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the job prospects at a T2 and below are poor, even if you are at the top of your class. So yes you should really consider borrowing an extra 30k because when you graduate you need a job that will allow you to pay it back. Makaf2000 wrote that the debt would be 170 at the transfer school or 140 at the current school. Either way big or medium size firms will not be available so if it was my decision I would stay and use my existing network to get the best job possible. Last year I transfer from a school in the 50s to USC. I am happy that I did because I have better options now. However, my former classmates and friends at other T2 schools are not doing so great as far as employment is concerned. A'nold, thank you for calling me out to clarify, if you would like to know more about my transfer experience feel free to pm me.

[A'nold]

lol - I hate it when ppl post without adding anything to the discussion. Makaf2000, form someone who has successfully transferred (not saying you have not or will not A'nold) your debt obligation should be at the top of your list of worries. I am in the top of my 3L class and to be honest if employment prospects are tough at my school then they are going to be poor at a T2. If you want to be in Philadelphia or any other city then the most important thing is to network. You have already begun your network as a 1L you will have to start over as a transfer. If this was 2006 then I would transfer in a heartbeat, but times have changed.

Are you trying to tell me that the difference b/w a t4 at 16k or whatever and 23k at Rutgers, a t2, for the last two years should actually have any role in this decision?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the job prospects at a T2 and below are poor, even if you are at the top of your class. So yes you should really consider borrowing an extra 30k because when you graduate you need a job that will allow you to pay it back. Makaf2000 wrote that the debt would be 170 at the transfer school or 140 at the current school. Either way big or medium size firms will not be available so if it was my decision I would stay and use my existing network to get the best job possible. Last year I transfer from a school in the 50s to USC. I am happy that I did because I have better options now. However, my former classmates and friends at other T2 schools are not doing so great as far as employment is concerned. A'nold, thank you for calling me out to clarify, if you would like to know more about my transfer experience feel free to pm me.

Not calling you out. Btw- if you think about it, 170 to 140 isn't that much of a difference, either way dude will likely be on LRAP. And we don't know what "t4" we are talking about here. I've lived on the West Coast my entire life and even I've heard of Rutgers.

[Hinkleymustang]

I have heard of them too. I am just telling you that the grass is not always greener.

[A'nold]

I am not arguing about the merits of transferring (although I do think he/she should transfer with his/her geographical preferences). I am just saying I can't see how 170k at a t2 (one of the better t2 names I might add) is somehow worse than a 140k at a t4.

[Hinkleymustang]

The difference is 30 thousand dollars in student loans. That is 30,000 dollars. What increase in salary do you think a kid would see from moving from a T4 to a T2? As a transfer it will be negligible. In my view transferring in this situation will result in a job that pays about the same, i.e. poor. The problem is we have no way of knowing what a student can expect to get paid upon graduation, the U.S. New rankings are not exactly true and even if they were, the employment statistics do not reflect the current legal economy.
Now here is the breakdown of salary required to maintain a 170 v 140k loan. You can get this info at finaid.org.

170k at 30 years at 6.8% (which is good for a consolidated loan)
Monthly Loan Payment: $1,108.27
Number of Payments: 361
Cumulative Payments: $398,980.53
Total Interest Paid: $228,980.53

If you use 10% of your income to repay this loan it is estimated that you will need to make 132k. If you use 15% to repay then you need to make 88k a year. You would need to make this in order to avoid financial hardship.

Now there are other things that can be adjusted, family size etc., but this is a good start for our purposes. The main thing that should jump out at you is that you thought you were borrowing 170k, but you really ended up paying nearly 399k back.

Now try 140 same terms as before.
Monthly Loan Payment: $912.70
Number of Payments: 360
Cumulative Payments: $328,566.44
Total Interest Paid: $188,566.44

If you use 10% of your income to repay this loan it is estimated that you will need to make 109k. If you use 15% to repay then you need to make 73k a year.

Now here is the big difference you just saved yourself over 70,000 dollars and you will not be required to make nearly as much. Look at the total interest paid, in interest alone you save around 40k. So now before you are so quick to pay an extra 30k, which is really 70k, are you confident that Rutgers or whatever can put you in a position to make 132k a year? 88k a year? Makaf2000 said he wanted to work for a firm or the government. Sadly a government job is not going to get it done; government salary can be less the 60k. So that leaves big law or a medium sized firm. I am not so confident that a transfer student to Rutgers, which is ranked what 80??, is going to be able to land a big enough job. Rutgers is a great school, but in this legal economy nothing is guaranteed. So I would stay put and try to get a in a government honors program or a smaller size firm that pays close to 70 a year.

The real problem is that law students are continually willing to pay more just for rank when the payoff simply is not there. Take a look at this Above the Law article. I am not sure if you are familiar with ATL, but they have been running several articles on student debt and poor educational choices.

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/even-u-s ... law_inline