Transfer options: UofMN or ND for Big Law? Forum

[lawyer180]

Hey all, I've just been accepted (gratefully) to both the UMN and Notre Dame - I am open to working in most geographic locations, so long as its a metro, but would like any feedback from anyone with knowledge on the schools and their reputations for big law prospects.

- How is OCI for transfer students?
- How many law firms at OCI?
-How are students' job prospects for big law upon graduation? grade ranges?

Thanks!

[Aberzombie1892]

Where are you in school now?

If you are top 10% + LR, it may be in your best interest to stay.

But to answer your question, Notre Dame would be a superior Big Lawish school.

Honestly if you are top 10% + LR, you are generally more likely to get Big Law if you stay.

[XxSpyKEx]

Hey all, I've just been accepted (gratefully) to both the UMN and Notre Dame - I am open to working in most geographic locations, so long as its a metro, but would like any feedback from anyone with knowledge on the schools and their reputations for big law prospects.

- How is OCI for transfer students?
- How many law firms at OCI?
-How are students' job prospects for big law upon graduation? grade ranges?

Thanks!

Historic reputation of ND isn't bad. ITE not a cold, dark chance in hell you're getting biglaw (in other words, OCI will not fare well for you -- OCI is almost all big law firms).

[270910]

To be perfectly blunt, I can't imagine you getting big law in this market as a transfer at either school.

[lawyer180]

"To be perfectly blunt," I appreciate your feedback but where is it coming from besides word of mouth or your own personal (and currently unsubstantiated) opinions? Yes, we've all read the threads about how shitty the economy is (and apparently only 40 firms [80 offices] coming to ND this year for OCI) but who has actual, personal experience from either school or knowledge of either school?

For example, ND is #23 and UMN is ranked #35 as feeder schools for NLJ 250 firms in 2010: 28.8% and 19.8% of their graduates hired, respectively.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Although, of course, this doesn't speak directly to SA positions for rising 2L's and OCI, i'd say >20% of grads being hired doesn't amount to no chance in hell.

But, if anyone is an alum, 2L, 3L or just has legit information besides a personal opinion, it'd be much appreciated.

[XxSpyKEx]

"To be perfectly blunt," I appreciate your feedback but where is it coming from besides word of mouth or your own personal (and currently unsubstantiated) opinions? Yes, we've all read the threads about how shitty the economy is (and apparently only 40 firms [80 offices] coming to ND this year for OCI) but who has actual, personal experience from either school or knowledge of either school?

For example, ND is #23 and UMN is ranked #35 as feeder schools for NLJ 250 firms in 2010: 28.8% and 19.8% of their graduates hired, respectively.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Although, of course, this doesn't speak directly to SA positions for rising 2L's and OCI, i'd say >20% of grads being hired doesn't amount to no chance in hell.

But, if anyone is an alum, 2L, 3L or just has legit information besides a personal opinion, it'd be much appreciated.

Not a 3L at ND, but how's this for cold hard numbers:

Law firm name
2008 2009 2010 [2L SA class]

Baker & McKenzie LLP – Chicago
2 8 4

Banner & Witcoff, Ltd.
5 3 3

Barnes & Thornburg LLP
3 0 0

BRINKS HOFER GILSON & LIONE
7 12 1

BRYAN CAVE LLP – CHICAGO
6 3 2

Butler Rubin Saltarelli & Boyd LLP
1 1 1

Chapman and Cutler LLP
10 9 7

DLA Piper LLP (US)
18 7 5

Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
12 5 4

DYKEMA (Dykema Gossett PLLC) - CHICAGO OFFICE
6 3 2

FITCH EVEN TABIN & FLANNERY
7 1 0

FOLEY & LARDNER LLP- CHICAGO
21 9 4

Goldberg Kohn Ltd.
8 1 1

Greenberg Traurig, LLP
6 7 3

Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP
18 7 8

Holland & Knight LLP – Chicago
6 4 2

JENNER & BLOCK LLP
40 46 16

JONES DAY – CHICAGO
17 21 8

K&L Gates LLP - Chicago, IL
10 13 3

Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP
29 15 5

KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP – Chicago
54 52 32

LATHAM & WATKINS LLP – CHICAGO
25 20 9

Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell LLP – Chicago
11 2 2

Lovells LLP
7 4 2

Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
4 2 4

MAYER BROWN LLP
71 46 11

McAndrews, Held & Malloy, Ltd.
7 4 4

McDermott Will & Emery LLP
14 14 8

McDonnell Boehnen Hulbert & Berghoff LLP
9 9 9

McGuireWoods LLP – Chicago
8 11 4

Michael Best & Friedrich LLP
2 2 1

Miller Shakman & Beem LLP
2 1 0

Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
5 3 0

Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg LLP
19 10 0

NIXON PEABODY LLP - Chicago, IL
2 1 2

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP
14 5 5

Perkins Coie LLP
4 3 1

Pircher, Nichols & Meeks
3 3 3

Quarles & Brady LLP
3 3 0

Reed Smith – Chicago
6 6 2

Ropes & Gray LLP
0 6 5

Schiff Hardin LLP
12 21 8

SEYFARTH SHAW LLP – CHICAGO
9 6 0

Shefsky & Froelich Ltd
2 1 1

SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP – CHICAGO
75 43 20

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9

Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP
43 14 6

Thompson Coburn LLP
3 1 1

Ungaretti & Harris LLP
6 4 3

Vedder Price, P.C.
10 5 0

WILDMAN, HARROLD, ALLEN & DIXON LLP
14 17 3

Winston & Strawn LLP
67 54 22

2008 SA total= 809

2009 SA total= 581

2010 SA total= 256

2010 SA/ 2009 SA = 256/581= 44% of the SAs that were available in 2009 were available in 2010

2010 SA/2008 SA = 256/809 = 31.6% of the SAs that were available in 2008 were available in 2010

The 256 number doesn’t seem to bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class alone, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.

That 28.8% number you are looking at is class of 2009, which did their OCI in 2007. They are represented above in the 2008 SA total number -- 809. As you can tell things have deteriorated SUBSTANTIALLY since then. BTW, this isn't just Chicago that's bad, it's bad everywhere.

[Hamilton]

.

[270910]

"To be perfectly blunt," I appreciate your feedback but where is it coming from besides word of mouth or your own personal (and currently unsubstantiated) opinions? Yes, we've all read the threads about how shitty the economy is (and apparently only 40 firms [80 offices] coming to ND this year for OCI) but who has actual, personal experience from either school or knowledge of either school?

For example, ND is #23 and UMN is ranked #35 as feeder schools for NLJ 250 firms in 2010: 28.8% and 19.8% of their graduates hired, respectively.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Although, of course, this doesn't speak directly to SA positions for rising 2L's and OCI, i'd say >20% of grads being hired doesn't amount to no chance in hell.

But, if anyone is an alum, 2L, 3L or just has legit information besides a personal opinion, it'd be much appreciated.

Well, I saw transfers struggle for and barely obtain or fail to obtain big law at T14 schools. Since the people who transfer into T14 schools are often the type who were transferring OUT of schools like UofMN and ND, I made an extrapolation.

Also, your linked data was for associates in the class of 209, who summered in 2008, who were hired in the fall of 2007 - before hiring stats really went to shit as they did fall '08 / '09. Look at the above rap sheet and compare the summer class from '08 (which correspond to your 28.8% and 19.8% statistics)

Also, while inaccurate, people often toss around the platitude that transfers are ROUGHLY viewed as a median student at the new school, and even in boom times median students at those schools had a rough time of it at big law.

Also, there is strong evidence based on where firms are recruiting and current summer classes that big law hit the schools just outside of the T14/T20 much harder than it hit those schools - that firms often dropped the 'worst' (not be pajoritive, it's just useful shorthand, look I hate UNWR as much as the next guy) few schools on their OCI list and focused on the top schools when the down turn hit.

So there you have it. But fuck all, prove me and the stats wrong and go get a big firm jobs. Its' worth a shot. But I hardly think either school has enough big law pull for this question to be resolvable.

[270910]

wow, this is eye opening.

Welcome to the economy, population debtor's prison.