Stay or Go? Forum

[urban8]

Hey guys,

I know I posted this before, but I am adding a poll this time and I didn't know how to add a poll to an already existing thread. Here's the deal, in summary:

I go to a T25, I'm on law review there, and I have a partial scholarship. I'm not crazy about the city (although it is decent).

I was recently accepted to a T14 (not T10) in a much preferred city (but still not my #1 city) and have a chance at law review since I can enter the fall competition.

Stay or go? Please vote, but also feel free to also comment with a thought process. Honestly, THANK YOU greatly for any advice you can offer!!

[Hamilton]

I wouldn't transfer unless you can break into the T6. However, I would be leveraging your acceptance for more $$ from your current school.

[sanpiero]

which school places better in your #1 city?

[bk1]

What's more important to you:

Job location or employment prospects + $$?

[urban8]

which school places better in your #1 city?

More firms recruit from the transfer school (I'm guessing just because it is ranked substantially higher). If I make law review at the transfer school, this would give me a huge advantage, but what about in the case that I don't make law review at the T14 and I give up my law review at the T25?

[bk1]

Do you have connections to the top area you want to practice?

[urban8]

What's more important to you:

Job location or employment prospects + $$?

Both are important to me, but I'd have to choose employment prospects I suppose because that is one of the reasons I went to law school.

[urban8]

Do you have connections to the top area you want to practice?

Unfortunately, no. I really don't have any legal connections anywhere. I'm pretty much trying to find a job based solely on law school performance.

[transplantedbuckeye]

Keep the money, law review, and class rank. Your employment prospects will be just fine from being at the top at a top school, and probably better than people in the middle of the transfer school not on law review. But then, I have been groomed by the attorneys I know to covet law review.

[bk1]

I didn't mean legal connections, I just meant reasons why a firm in that area would consider hiring you (lived there all your life, went to UG there, etc). From what I've read, it is possible to go from a strong regional to a market if you have a connection to the area (a friend of mine, from LA and went to a UC for UG then BU for law school, got work at a big LA firm).

Since it seems like you value job prospects over a shot at your top city, I would say stay as long as you don't hate the area you are in right now.

[urban8]

I didn't mean legal connections, I just meant reasons why a firm in that area would consider hiring you (lived there all your life, went to UG there, etc). From what I've read, it is possible to go from a strong regional to a market if you have a connection to the area (a friend of mine, from LA and went to a UC for UG then BU for law school, got work at a big LA firm).

Since it seems like you value job prospects over a shot at your top city, I would say stay as long as you don't hate the area you are in right now.

I do have some connections there, yes. I went to undergrad in that area and worked in that city for a year after graduation. Plus my significant other is living there. Is the main reason to stay because of law review?

Despite law review, my grades are not stellar. I was definitely offered membership because of the write-on.

[bk1]

I do have some connections there, yes. I went to undergrad in that area and worked in that city for a year after graduation. Plus my significant other is living there. Is the main reason to stay because of law review?

Despite law review, my grades are not stellar. I was definitely offered membership because of the write-on.

If your relationship is serious, is your SO going to be "stuck" there?

If so then I think transferring to a T14 is the best option here, depending upon your relationship (considering you probably want to live with your SO in that area, going to the T14 would give you a stronger shot there, IMO).

[chitown825]

which school places better in your #1 city?

He obviously got into Northwestern.

[sanpiero]

which school places better in your #1 city?

He obviously got into Northwestern.

I don't doubt that he got into NU, but to say it's "obvious" is ridiculous. Could also be GULC. Even if I did know it was NU, it's impossible to give sound advice without knowing his current school, too.

[sanpiero]

which school places better in your #1 city?

More firms recruit from the transfer school (I'm guessing just because it is ranked substantially higher). If I make law review at the transfer school, this would give me a huge advantage, but what about in the case that I don't make law review at the T14 and I give up my law review at the T25?

I don't think you really answered my question. I was assuming your T14 would have more firms at OCI. Does it have more firms from your target market at OCI? Does your current school place anyone in your target market? Does your current school have an alumni base in your target market? Is your current school geographically closer to your target market?

It would be tough for me to give up a partial scholarship and LR at a T25 for sticker and likely no LR at a T14, unless the T14 placed significantly better in my target market. How large is your scholly? 1/4, 1/3, 1/2?

[urban8]

which school places better in your #1 city?

Does it have more firms from your target market at OCI? Does your current school place anyone in your target market? Does your current school have an alumni base in your target market? Is your current school geographically closer to your target market?

How large is your scholly? 1/4, 1/3, 1/2?

My current school is generally known as a regional school (think Emory, Notre Dame, etc…). While it does place some students in my target market (New York City), it doesn’t compare to the number of people who place in NYC from the T14 school.

The scholarship I have is less than $20k.

I know that the T14 is a better school for placing in NYC, but the main question is will having law review at a T25 that doesn’t place as well in NYC help me more than not having law review at a T14 that does place well in NYC?

[sanpiero]

which school places better in your #1 city?

Does it have more firms from your target market at OCI? Does your current school place anyone in your target market? Does your current school have an alumni base in your target market? Is your current school geographically closer to your target market?

How large is your scholly? 1/4, 1/3, 1/2?

My current school is generally known as a regional school (think Emory, Notre Dame, etc…). While it does place some students in my target market (New York City), it doesn’t compare to the number of people who place in NYC from the T14 school.

The scholarship I have is less than $20k.

I know that the T14 is a better school for placing in NYC, but the main question is will having law review at a T25 that doesn’t place as well in NYC help me more than not having law review at a T14 that does place well in NYC?

$20k/year?

wrt your question, i think it depends on how much better the T14 places in NYC. From what I've heard, transfers are treated as median students at their new schools. Since you're coming from a T25, you will probably be treated as above median but it's difficult to say for sure. So, you need to compare the NYC job prospects of a median, or slightly above median, student at the T14 vs. a ~t20% (i'm guessing) LR student at your T25. I think you'd need close to t10-20% grades at ND, Minn, Emory, BU, and UIUC to even have a shot at NYC firms. From what I've heard, BU probably places the best of the 5, followed by Emory, so if you're there, you might be OK w/ t20%.

The scholarship is important here though, so it's difficult to give more concrete advice w/o knowing whether ~$20k is ~$10k/year or ~$20k/year for 2L and 3L.

Your career plans are important, too. If I wanted a federal clerkship, I would be transferring without question. The same goes for academia. Do you want to work at a firm or in govt/pi?

[urban8]

wrt your question, i think it depends on how much better the T14 places in NYC. From what I've heard, transfers are treated as median students at their new schools. Since you're coming from a T25, you will probably be treated as above median but it's difficult to say for sure. So, you need to compare the NYC job prospects of a median, or slightly above median, student at the T14 vs. a ~t20% (i'm guessing) LR student at your T25. I think you'd need close to t10-20% grades at ND, Minn, Emory, BU, and UIUC to even have a shot at NYC firms. From what I've heard, BU probably places the best of the 5, followed by Emory, so if you're there, you might be OK w/ t20%.

The scholarship is important here though, so it's difficult to give more concrete advice w/o knowing whether ~$20k is ~$10k/year or ~$20k/year for 2L and 3L.

Your career plans are important, too. If I wanted a federal clerkship, I would be transferring without question. The same goes for academia. Do you want to work at a firm or in govt/pi?

First of all, thank you for taking the time to give me your thoughts. I am really struggling with this decision and am not sure who else I can go to for advice.

What is the best way to go about comparing a median student at a T14 to a law review student at a T25 for NYC job prospects?

In terms of the scholarship, I receive a bit less than $20k per year, so over the next two years that would save me about $35k.

At this point, I am leaning toward a firm job. I realize that the NYC market is probably the most competitive, so I guess my ultimate choice will have to come down to which choice will appeal more to employers.

Also, is it worth taking into account that my current law school information (including law review) will stay on my resume during the OCI process even if I do transfer? In that case, might that be the best of both since I will be at a T14 and there will still be some mention of law review? Or not?

[sanpiero]

First of all, thank you for taking the time to give me your thoughts. I am really struggling with this decision and am not sure who else I can go to for advice.

What is the best way to go about comparing a median student at a T14 to a law review student at a T25 for NYC job prospects?

In terms of the scholarship, I receive a bit less than $20k per year, so over the next two years that would save me about $35k.

At this point, I am leaning toward a firm job. I realize that the NYC market is probably the most competitive, so I guess my ultimate choice will have to come down to which choice will appeal more to employers.

Also, is it worth taking into account that my current law school information (including law review) will stay on my resume during the OCI process even if I do transfer? In that case, might that be the best of both since I will be at a T14 and there will still be some mention of law review? Or not?

I think that it will be advantageous to transfer to the T14 and be able to list that you were offered a position on T25's LR.

Honestly, this is a tough dilemma. I don't think I can give any more sensible advice without knowing where you attend, your rank, and where you were accepted. Feel free to PM, if you'd like to discuss further.

[urban8]

Can anyone who voted for me to transfer please explain the reasoning? Or can anyone give me more thoughts? I'd really appreciate it.

[starstruck393]

I voted for transferring, barely. There's a lot to be said about staying. $$, LR, you're already at a good school. However, $35k, while a lot of money, really isn't, when you consider it could easily be the difference in starting salaries coming from the T25 instead of the T14. I think the thing that pushed it over the edge for me was the grades. You said your grades weren't stellar, that you wrote on. First, that would indicate that you at least have a decent chance of writing onto the T14 LR, and even if you don't make it you can still tell employers you got on at the T25. But the biggest loss I think for transfer students is losing that spot in the top 1-2-5ish% at the old school. Even from a T4, that's a decently big deal. But you don't have that to lose. In fact, transferring might even help out your GPA situation. In the end, your graduating GPA will be the GPA from the new school, from two years on a curve with a higher average than the first year. You may not have the rank you otherwise would have (if your school even ranks), but you can still tout that GPA that conveniently was calculated without the rougher first year classes, and still drop that you made LR at the old school (if you don't make it at the T14). It essentially gives you a clean slate at a better regarded school, without giving up much in return...

[rando]

I voted for transferring, barely. There's a lot to be said about staying. $$, LR, you're already at a good school. However, $35k, while a lot of money, really isn't, when you consider it could easily be the difference in starting salaries coming from the T25 instead of the T14. I think the thing that pushed it over the edge for me was the grades. You said your grades weren't stellar, that you wrote on. First, that would indicate that you at least have a decent chance of writing onto the T14 LR, and even if you don't make it you can still tell employers you got on at the T25. But the biggest loss I think for transfer students is losing that spot in the top 1-2-5ish% at the old school. Even from a T4, that's a decently big deal. But you don't have that to lose. In fact, transferring might even help out your GPA situation. In the end, your graduating GPA will be the GPA from the new school, from two years on a curve with a higher average than the first year. You may not have the rank you otherwise would have (if your school even ranks), but you can still tout that GPA that conveniently was calculated without the rougher first year classes, and still drop that you made LR at the old school (if you don't make it at the T14). It essentially gives you a clean slate at a better regarded school, without giving up much in return...

Agree with the above.

[b1ue]

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[urban8]

Starstruck393 and b1ue thank you. Both great things to consider. I wish there were a way to ask recruiters which student they are more likely to hire.

To be honest I'm surprised so many people are leaning toward the T25 school. I always thought T14 was a huge deal, but maybe law review is an even bigger deal?

I am meeting with my favorite first-year professor tomorrow. He's highly respected and I value his opinion a lot. I will let you guys know what advice he passes on, just in case anyone is in a similar situation.

Anyone have other thoughts?

[urban8]

Talked with my professor and this is the advice he gave me, in summary:

The main thing to consider (aside from personal preference for a city, happiness, etc...) is what will land someone the best job. He thinks that the easiest way to get a job is to stand out in some way at your current law school. Law review is a great example. High grades, getting a comment published, etc... are others. Given that law review is never even close to guaranteed at the transfer school (and sometimes not even allowed), this is something to seriously think about. While ranking undoubtedly makes a difference, the difference should be high enough that not shining at your transfer school will be a better choice than shining at your current one.

The best way to figure this out, he says, is to take a look at last year’s OCI numbers for both your current school and the transfer school in the legal market in which you want to practice. There should be statistics somewhere and if not, you can always ask career services. I’m going to look into this more for myself.

All of this being said, do any of you have general thoughts off the top of your head about what might be more advantageous from an NYC biglaw perspective: (1) T25 traditionally more of a regional school + law review OR (2) T14 + no law review (since I have to assume I won’t get it).

Or other thoughts in general? Thoughts about what he said?

Thank you once again!