Transferring into the t14, OCI, career prospects.. [UPDATED] Forum

[rynabrius]

<-- I appreciated this thread. It's nice to be reminded of how brutal it is out there. Sorry about the people attacking you, it seems you have already had it very rough.

[12262010]

If I read the thread correctly, OP didn't do a law-oriented job after 1L, which may be the true source of a lot of his troubles.

Not necessarily true. It obviously hurt to not have worked my 1L summer, but I definitely don't think that a legal job would've necessarily made a difference (it might have, but not necessarily). Pretty much all the other transfers here did work there 1L summer, they all did spectacular there 1L year (you basically have to in order to transfer here); yet, I want to say something like 70% of transfers struck out of getting any type of paying legal employment this last summer (based on the number of people who are still here and the number of people who I know did something unpaid elsewhere). The URMs and LBGT transfers did pretty well though (I don't think there was anyone in that group that didn't get a law firm job this summer).

What I think would have made a huge difference would have been if I had gotten twice the screening interviews (like some people did).

FLAME

Sorry I was in a hurry and didn't have time to proofread something that I'm posting anonymously on a message board, and that it was apparently ambiguous enough that you couldn't understand what I was saying. Do you really have nothing better to do than to check anonymous people's posts for grammar and spelling on a Saturday night? If so, I feel bad for you... You really got to realize there's a difference between turning in a brief to a court that is filled with typos and grammatical errors and writing something on a open message board (and that not everything you write needs to be perfect -- do you really sit there and proofread you exams before for grammar and spelling errors before you turn them in?!?)

Do you really think catching an egregious error that you made twice in a row required more than a cursory read of your post? And yes, I do check my exams for errors.

[vyelps]

not alting. the mods can check a poster's IP address I believe. people respond to comments directed at others all the time.

[t14underground]

<-- I appreciated this thread. It's nice to be reminded of how brutal it is out there. Sorry about the people attacking you, it seems you have already had it very rough.

Thanks.

I'm not sure what the attacks are all about anyways. Perhaps it makes it easier for people to sleep at night thinking that this is a big flame and that everything is jolly because they go to a good school, and that everything will be alright. I have no idea. There's plenty of news articles and blogs out there from people that had decent grades but were no offered in the class of 2010 that also indicate just how brutal things are out there (e.g. see the WSJ article about the northwestern guy, or the ATL/YouTube blog/video documentary of the NYU students that can't find any legal job at all). I think there was a post on the legal forum by some 2010 CLS grad who described his exact 3L job search and it wasn't exactly rosy either given that he attended CLS the 4th best school in the country.

I've said this before, and I'm saying it again now: my point of this thread isn't to tell people not to transfer or to tell people that they are going to be screwed if they do transfer. In fact, things worked out great for that fairly substantial part of the transfer class that got biglaw offers (30% is a decent number where it's clear that employers didn't just laugh away transfer applications as they threw them in the paper shredder). My point of making this thread, however, is just to give people a better picture of how it really is out there (if you don't get something out of OCI) than the crap they feed you in the CSO materials. I honestly wish there was something like this thread on the internet somewhere that I could have read prior to transferring. I can't say it would definetely kept me from transferring, but it would have definitely have me a better picture of what I might be walking into after I transfer than this bullshit that the CSO gave me. I mean I came in not expecting biglaw (it would have been nice, but I didn't expect it). I did, however, expect the worst case scenario was going to be a 50+ law firm in the city I want based on the CSO materials, which indicated that only 2% of the entire class of 2008 didn't get at least that. So figured, WTF, that has to be the worst case scenario, and even at a 50+ law firm I would be easily looking at $70K /year or more, which is something I would be perfectly happy about. The reason I'm kind of pissed off about how things worked out is that I feel like I didn't get what I bargained for at all (and I don't think I bargained for biglaw, but I think that the CSO materials were extremely misleading in making me believe that I would be able to make at least $70K /year -- something I would be perfectly happy with even right now).

Honestly, I really don't care though. If you guys want to just ignore this thread, that's fine. Just tell me to go away, and I will, and the mods can lock this thread. I have better things to do than to waste my time if people think that none of this is in anyway useful to them. (Although I really don't understand all the flame comments -- I just don't see how this all can be just one big joke. It's like telling something there significant other died earlier in the day and somehow thinking that's funny).

[t14underground]

Do you really think catching an egregious error that you made twice in a row required more than a cursory read of your post? And yes, I do check my exams for errors.

Get a life.

not alting. the mods can check a poster's IP address I believe. people respond to comments directed at others all the time.

It's all good.

[vyelps]

I'm not sure what the attacks are all about anyways.

Totally didn't mean to attack you. I just wanted to point out some other considerations regarding the causes of your problematic job search. FWIW, i think people think you're a flame because of the extreme nature of some of your comments.

[t14underground]

I'm not sure what the attacks are all about anyways.

Totally didn't mean to attack you. I just wanted to point out some other considerations regarding the causes of your problematic job search. FWIW, i think people think you're a flame because of the extreme nature of some of your comments.

I wasn't referring to you. I think your previous comment was actually helpful.

[BobSacamano]

People are attacking you because you smell like a JDU troll. Sorry if you're not, but your screen name, posting style, constantly referring to your work as "shitlaw" (a term nobody but the JDU trolls of the world use), and your stories of millions of resumes sent out say otherwise. You may very well be legitimate, but we've seen posters like you before, and they're usually JDU trolls.

[bwv812]

.

[ZXCVBNM]

anyone have firsthand knowledge of how NYU transfers did last year...especially those tranferring from T1 schools? Is this 30% stat that OP keep repeating true for transfers at most t14 schools? Thanks!

[t14underground]

People are attacking you because you smell like a JDU troll. Sorry if you're not, but your screen name, posting style, constantly referring to your work as "shitlaw" (a term nobody but the JDU trolls of the world use), and your stories of millions of resumes sent out say otherwise. You may very well be legitimate, but we've seen posters like you before, and they're usually JDU trolls.

People throw the term "shitlaw" around here all the time. The reason he doesn't fit in around here is the same reason everyone on the UVa OCI thread is only posting if they have 12+ preselects (which is well above the average), and all the people in the GULC OCI thread also have above average numbers. Virtually no one posts here — not even anonymously — if they are below median in anything, be it grades, OCI performance, or anything else. Anytime someone does post negative news that disrupts our expectations or preconceptions, they are ridiculed and lambasted as a flame.

Thanks for this. These were exact thoughts. It seems like all you ever read about is the really positive results when it comes to grades, OCI performance, etc. and you never see anything negative on TLS. It's almost like no one ever speaks about their negative results in anything on TLS, and then everyone that uses TLS's expectations are that the average person does as well as the people who post here.

[t14underground]

anyone have firsthand knowledge of how NYU transfers did last year...especially those tranferring from T1 schools? Is this 30% stat that OP keep repeating true for transfers at most t14 schools? Thanks!

My understanding is that it was worse for transfers at schools at the bottom of the t14 and better for transfers at higher ranked t14s (which would make sense). But I really don't have first hand knowledge of how transfers did anywhere but here, so someone else could probably better answer your first question.

[MTal]

I feel for you dude. If it helps, you have literally 10x the motivation that I, and 90 % of other TLS posters have, so whatever you do, don't give up. Maybe this has been mentioned before, but consider joining one of the armed services as an officer. They will notice and appreciate your motivation, and you can make quite a career out of it. Most TLS'ers are huge pussies, so I would not recommend that course of action to just anybody.

[ZXCVBNM]

anyone have firsthand knowledge of how NYU transfers did last year...especially those tranferring from T1 schools? Is this 30% stat that OP keep repeating true for transfers at most t14 schools? Thanks!

My understanding is that it was worse for transfers at schools at the bottom of the t14 and better for transfers at higher ranked t14s (which would make sense). But I really don't have first hand knowledge of how transfers did anywhere but here, so someone else could probably better answer your first question.

were you in the lower T14? did students at your school that transferred from T1's have higher offer rates...do you know how high? how do you know 30% got offers?

[t14underground]

I feel for you dude. If it helps, you have literally 10x the motivation that I, and 90 % of other TLS posters have, so whatever you do, don't give up. Maybe this has been mentioned before, but consider joining one of the armed services as an officer. They will notice and appreciate your motivation, and you can make quite a career out of it. Most TLS'ers are huge pussies, so I would not recommend that course of action to just anybody.

In all honesty, it sucks if I don't end up going into law because I essentially wasted 7 years and a shitload of money. However, maybe I'm better off not making it into the profession anyways. My "DMV" gig was great. It was a lot closer to the "models and bottles lifestyle" than working a law firm will ever be (except the money part). I worked something like 25-35 hours a week (and got paid for 48 hours /week), me and a lot of my co-workers would set up tee times around 1-2PM for 18 hole rounds of golf often, and I had so much free time. Got to go out and get drunk basically whenever I wanted to (I mean waking up in the morning is awful, but still I knew I would be able to get out of work by 1PM at the latest and take a nap before going out for the next night). As much as my job situation sucks, for me work really has never been much more than a paycheck. I thought as a lawyer it would be (because it's something I've always wanted to do), but if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out. Things could be a lot worse, and it's really not the end of the world if I have to go back to that same job and lifestyle. Not to mention with IBR it's basically like a $20k /year raise on my salary for the next 10 years (considering that's the part of my loans I will never have to repay).

I also don't think getting back into the profession completely hopeless down the road. I've talked to alums that survived the last recession. For example, this one woman couldn't find any legal job (because of terrible grades) in 03, so she worked doing something that wasn't even remotely legal. About a year or two later she got into a half way decent law firm. Another guy I talked to went into insurance defense out of law school in 03. He's now a partner at Weil, Gotshal & Manges. I think the demand for top law school alums was a lot greater in that period between 02 to now then it will ever be again (that's seems to be when salaries really started skyrocketing at large firm, after the dot.com bust), but I still think it might be possible to find something worthwhile a couple years down the road when things pick back up. Or maybe, I'll get really, really lucky and get a federal clerkship and dodge the economy for a year or two altogether.

I'll be back to post up any updates (good or bad).

[t14underground]

anyone have firsthand knowledge of how NYU transfers did last year...especially those tranferring from T1 schools? Is this 30% stat that OP keep repeating true for transfers at most t14 schools? Thanks!

My understanding is that it was worse for transfers at schools at the bottom of the t14 and better for transfers at higher ranked t14s (which would make sense). But I really don't have first hand knowledge of how transfers did anywhere but here, so someone else could probably better answer your first question.

were you in the lower T14? did students at your school that transferred from T1's have higher offer rates...do you know how high? how do you know 30% got offers?

My school is right in the middle (i.e. MVPB). I don't really think school rank affected offers as much as regional strength of the old school and the region you wanted after the transfer.* This is one thing that I think really hurt me-- I left my old school and all my ties to that state left with my transfer. Then I shot for Chicago/NYC/LA (one of them), and I think the law firms just didn't have any way to evaluate me because they typically don't hire people from my t3. Essentially, think of it this way: you transfer to your new school, but you are still evaluated as a student from your old school at OCI because you don't have grades at your new school yet. The one thing that you do get, however, is OCI interviews with firms that would not have otherwise considered you (which is hugely helpful, but not necessarily sufficient).

*For example, there is a student from a local t4 who transferred here, and he shot for firms in the region and ended up with 4 callbacks and 2 offers. Obviously he did pretty well in terms of grades, but the firm that hired him does hire students from his old school as well (so they knew how to evaluate him).

EDIT- I know that 30% got offers because the transfer class here is relatively small, and I know everyone in it (i.e. I don't hang out with everyone on a regular basis, but I do know everyone).

[ZXCVBNM]

thanks makes sense. i'm actually trying not to bid on many firms that don't go to fordham for the reasons you mentioned. that way the firms that interview me will no better how to evaluate me.

[t14underground]

thanks makes sense. i'm actually trying not to bid on many firms that don't go to fordham for the reasons you mentioned. that way the firms that interview me will no better how to evaluate me.

Congrats on your transfer!

[ZXCVBNM]

thanks....and also thanks for scaring the crap out of me although i feel better after our last couple exchanges.

[NYAssociate]

.

[ZXCVBNM]

why? playing it safe is not a bad option in this economy. also pretty much only S&C and Wachtell don't come to Fordham. Most of the rest do.

[luthersloan]

Well, the reason you should bid firms that do not go to your old school is rather simple, getting access to employers who would not have come to your school is a principal benefit of transfer. However, I do think it is wise to not bid firms that neither come to your school nor peer or near peer schools of your old school. So I would still leave Wachtell and S and C alone.

[t14underground]

Well the job search since my last post was an absolute nightmare (I'm not even going to go into how many applications I sent out, but it was in the 1000s for clerkships alone), but this update is a refreshing one: I got a job! It's a clerkship that I hands down had no chance in hell at had I not transferred, and it's a court that was one of my top picks (oddly enough). Pay is actually pretty good for a clerkship as well. All in all, I'm pretty happy about how things worked out (and I'm fairly certain this clerkship will lead to something good).

I guess it might be time for a moniker change

[concurrent fork]

Well the job search since my last post was an absolute nightmare (I'm not even going to go into how many applications I sent out, but it was in the 1000s for clerkships alone), but this update is a refreshing one: I got a job! It's a clerkship that I hands down had no chance in hell at had I not transferred, and it's a court that was one of my top picks (oddly enough). Pay is actually pretty good for a clerkship as well. All in all, I'm pretty happy about how things worked out (and I'm fairly certain this clerkship will lead to something good).

I guess it might be time for a moniker change

Congrats - glad it worked out.

[Lonagan]

Well the job search since my last post was an absolute nightmare (I'm not even going to go into how many applications I sent out, but it was in the 1000s for clerkships alone), but this update is a refreshing one: I got a job! It's a clerkship that I hands down had no chance in hell at had I not transferred, and it's a court that was one of my top picks (oddly enough). Pay is actually pretty good for a clerkship as well. All in all, I'm pretty happy about how things worked out (and I'm fairly certain this clerkship will lead to something good).

I guess it might be time for a moniker change

Huge congrats. Sounds like you earned it.