Do undergrad numbers hurt your chances of transfering. Forum

[Aloha4]

My undergrad cum gpa is around a 2.2 (3.8 the last two years, first two years I was a screw up), and my LSAT is a 156. Supposing I get a 4.0 at a T4 during my 1L, do my undergrad numbers hurt my chances of transfering to a T1?

[270910]

Consensus is yes, UG school + grades matter, but not that much. The data set is too small to draw profound influences though.

[Simpler Times]

Also, unless you have that 4.0 in the bank, expecting it, relying on it, or even thinking that good grades are probable is lunacy. A lot of people bust their asses at law school and the grading process is significantly more random than most people admit. Don't worry, 80% of your classmates are planning on getting a 4.0 as well, and although there is usually one exception to the rule, statistics say that person is not you.

[270910]

Don't worry, 80% of your classmates are planning on getting a 4.0 as well, but at most law schools statistics say that person is no one

Fixed that for you

[kings84_wr]

I'll tell you this summer once I find out where I get in. I didn't have a 2.2 in U-grad but i had ended with like a 2.96. (my lsat was a 166 though but really i don't see why lsat should come into play since its only purpose is predicting 1L performance).

But seriously dude don't plan on transferring before you even start. TLS is not reality, i know a lot of us on here did really well, and it makes it seem like getting good grades is easy if you work hard. I know lots of people who worked very hard last semester and ended up no where near a the top of the class much less a 4.0. Law school is filled with really smart and competitive people.

[bkthunder]

Honestly, I would not even think about transferring until after 1st semester grades. Put all transfer thoughts in the back of your mind and just focus on schoolwork during first semester. Personally, I had considered the possibility of transferring before I started 1L (like you) but then really didn't think about it at all until the last month or so. I know plenty of people that worked as hard as I did that didn't get grades that would put them in a position to transfer. When I got my grades, it wasn't even like the first thing I thought about was transferring. If you work hard and get sort of lucky with how grades turn out, that is the time to start thinking about questions like these. Best of luck

[patrickd139]

My undergrad cum gpa is around a 2.2 (3.8 the last two years, first two years I was a screw up), and my LSAT is a 156. Supposing I get a 4.0 at a T4 during my 1L, do my undergrad numbers hurt my chances of transfering to a T1?

First, go to the best law school that you would feel confident graduating from. Statistically speaking, you will not get a 4.0 at at T4 during your 1L year.

Second--and to answer your question--it appears that transfer decisions are made based solely on your first year law school GPA, class rank and school rank. It is similar to the weight given to LSAT and UGPA when going through the initial law school admissions process. Softs don't matter. UGPA won't matter any more than high school GPA mattered for admission to law school.

The exceptions to this are YLS, SLS and HLS, all of which consider UGPA at some level, albeit not a huge consideration, apparently. You don't need to worry about transferring to those from a T4 school.

[A'nold]

I sure hope they don't matter a whole lot.

[270910]

Second--and to answer your question--it appears that transfer decisions are made based solely on your first year law school GPA, class rank and school rank. It is similar to the weight given to LSAT and UGPA when going through the initial law school admissions process. Softs don't matter. UGPA won't matter any more than high school GPA mattered for admission to law school.

The exceptions to this are YLS, SLS and HLS, all of which consider UGPA at some level, albeit not a huge consideration, apparently. You don't need to worry about transferring to those from a T4 school.

Where do you get this info? There is quite a bit of talk on transferapps (the yahoogroups database) about UGPA mattering (albeit only slightly). Obviously first year law school grades + law school rank are the most important, by far, but I get the impression that UGPA does matter on the margins - certainly more than 'high school GPA during law school admissions'.

[XxSpyKEx]

UGPA/LSAT are only predictors of how you will do your first semester of law school. When you have actual law school grades there is no reason for law school adcomms to look at your UGPA/LSAT and they don't. The only transfer page where they are even mentioned is HLS (at least for the t14), and if you read it carefully it doesn't say that UGPA/LSAT are even considered when evaluating transfer applications.

[patrickd139]

UGPA/LSAT are only predictors of how you will do your first semester of law school. When you have actual law school grades there is no reason for law school adcomms to look at your UGPA/LSAT and they don't. The only transfer page where they are even mentioned is HLS (at least for the t14), and if you read it carefully it doesn't say that UGPA/LSAT are even considered when evaluating transfer applications.

This. SpyK pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[XxSpyKEx]

Just to add to my previous post, the only place where you will even see anything in regards to UGPA/LSAT mentioned on a t14 transfer application page is for HLS and it says:

Many successful transfer candidates typically place very near the top of their first-year law class and would have also been admitted or wait-listed as first-year students on the basis of their pre-law-school credentials.

That doesn't say anywhere that they are considering UGPA/LSAT for the transfer application decision. That is, it makes sense that "many" people who transfers in might be people that would have had a high UGPA/LSAT, but that doesn't mean it is something that is even considered when making a decision.

[270910]

I really don't know who is right, but this is (one piece of) information that I'm basing my statement on:

> The paramount factor for transfer admission is your law school rank
> (weighted to the rank of your law school).
[...]
>You should also note that your LSAT will be irrelevant for
> transfer purposes. LSAT is used in the initial admissions process
> because it's better than UGPA at predicting law school performance.
> However, it's still not very good; it's about 30% accurate. 1L
> performance is a much better predictor of law school performance than
> LSAT score. Therefore, your LSAT will essentially be irrelevant for
> the transfer process.
>
> However, UGPA still matters - though to a lesser extent. It's hard to
> know how much UGPA is weighted in the transfer process but it can
> certainly disqualify you from being admitted. For example, my friend
> who was 3/252 (Top 1%) in my law school class with a [2.4 UGPA] at a
> T1 was rejected at Columbia, Penn, Chicago, and UVA, and only gained
> admission to Northwestern. However, Columbia generaly accepts those in
> the top 5% of their class from T1s. I was 1/252 (Top 1%) with a 3.99 UGPA
> and gained admission to Yale, Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Penn, UVA, Michigan,
> Northwestern, Cornell, Duke, Vanderbilt, UCLA, and GW. So, clearly
> UGPA matters. It's just unclear to what extent it matters.

If you scour the databases
you'll find a couple Harvard admits and maybe one Stanford admit,
IIRC, with poor UG performance. These are folks who wound up at T50
schools. Of course, they were in the top three students in their
respective classes.

Undergrad grades DO matter at most schools for transfer admission if
you're way out of their range, and it matters a lot for HYS. However,
Northwestern and Michigan seem quite willing to take those with very
low UGPAs, so you might be right about Michigan.

Perhaps UGPA only really matters at HYS? Perhaps the database / posters have a skewed viewpoint and it doesn't matter at all?

Now, you can feel free to disagree, and I may still be wrong - but this is an arena where nobody has all that much data to go on. I think it's worth acknowledging that the best resource currently available for transfers (the yahoogroup) has a widely held belief that in some cases, undergrad grades matter.

[XxSpyKEx]

I really don't know who is right, but this is (one piece of) information that I'm basing my statement on:

> The paramount factor for transfer admission is your law school rank
> (weighted to the rank of your law school).
[...]
>You should also note that your LSAT will be irrelevant for
> transfer purposes. LSAT is used in the initial admissions process
> because it's better than UGPA at predicting law school performance.
> However, it's still not very good; it's about 30% accurate. 1L
> performance is a much better predictor of law school performance than
> LSAT score. Therefore, your LSAT will essentially be irrelevant for
> the transfer process.
>
> However, UGPA still matters - though to a lesser extent. It's hard to
> know how much UGPA is weighted in the transfer process but it can
> certainly disqualify you from being admitted. For example, my friend
> who was 3/252 (Top 1%) in my law school class with a [2.4 UGPA] at a
> T1 was rejected at Columbia, Penn, Chicago, and UVA, and only gained
> admission to Northwestern. However, Columbia generaly accepts those in
> the top 5% of their class from T1s. I was 1/252 (Top 1%) with a 3.99 UGPA
> and gained admission to Yale, Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Penn, UVA, Michigan,
> Northwestern, Cornell, Duke, Vanderbilt, UCLA, and GW. So, clearly
> UGPA matters. It's just unclear to what extent it matters.

If you scour the databases
you'll find a couple Harvard admits and maybe one Stanford admit,
IIRC, with poor UG performance. These are folks who wound up at T50
schools. Of course, they were in the top three students in their
respective classes.

Undergrad grades DO matter at most schools for transfer admission if
you're way out of their range, and it matters a lot for HYS. However,
Northwestern and Michigan seem quite willing to take those with very
low UGPAs, so you might be right about Michigan.

Perhaps UGPA only really matters at HYS? Perhaps the database / posters have a skewed viewpoint and it doesn't matter at all?

Now, you can feel free to disagree, and I may still be wrong - but this is an arena where nobody has all that much data to go on. I think it's worth acknowledging that the best resource currently available for transfers (the yahoogroup) has a widely held belief that in some cases, undergrad grades matter.

I've never heard of UGPA/LSAT mattering for any t14 law school outside of potentially HYS. In fact, you can even call the admissions offices for these schools and ask them specifically what they consider for transfer admissions and none that I know of will tell you UGPA/LSAT. If you are concerned out it it terms of a school that you are potentially considering applying to the best thing to do would be to simply call the admissions office and outright ask them whether they consider UGPA/LSAT for transfer admissions -- it's not like they are going to lie to you about it.

[im_blue]

I'd worry about getting a 4.0 first before worrying if undergrad numbers hurt transfer apps. Everyone thinks they can be top X% if they just work enough.

[A'nold]

You know, speaking of "working enough": I've never worked so hard in my life as last semester, although I believe probably half the class worked "harder" than I did. I guess it is all relative. My first semester of law school made me realize how little effort I have actually given in life on certain things. I guess this makes me a lifetime "underachiever." Working as hard as probably I'd guess the top half of the class and finishing at the top shows me how much potential I've had but just not utilized efficiently.

[apper123]

You know, speaking of "working enough": I've never worked so hard in my life as last semester, although I believe probably half the class worked "harder" than I did. I guess it is all relative. My first semester of law school made me realize how little effort I have actually given in life on certain things. I guess this makes me a lifetime "underachiever." Working as hard as probably I'd guess the top half of the class and finishing at the top shows me how much potential I've had but just not utilized efficiently.

Haha not to be arrogant but this pretty much describes me to a T.

[kings84_wr]

You know, speaking of "working enough": I've never worked so hard in my life as last semester, although I believe probably half the class worked "harder" than I did. I guess it is all relative. My first semester of law school made me realize how little effort I have actually given in life on certain things. I guess this makes me a lifetime "underachiever." Working as hard as probably I'd guess the top half of the class and finishing at the top shows me how much potential I've had but just not utilized efficiently.

Haha not to be arrogant but this pretty much describes me to a T.

Me too haha. Its really sad, but my law school gpa is higher then any semester of my undergrad.

[Lawl Shcool]

You know, speaking of "working enough": I've never worked so hard in my life as last semester, although I believe probably half the class worked "harder" than I did. I guess it is all relative. My first semester of law school made me realize how little effort I have actually given in life on certain things. I guess this makes me a lifetime "underachiever." Working as hard as probably I'd guess the top half of the class and finishing at the top shows me how much potential I've had but just not utilized efficiently.

Haha not to be arrogant but this pretty much describes me to a T.

Me too haha. Its really sad, but my law school gpa is higher then any semester of my undergrad.

lifetime underachiever here too

My law school gpa is also higher than any semester of undergrad as well, but were on diff grading scales so it doesn't really count.

[apper123]

You know, speaking of "working enough": I've never worked so hard in my life as last semester, although I believe probably half the class worked "harder" than I did. I guess it is all relative. My first semester of law school made me realize how little effort I have actually given in life on certain things. I guess this makes me a lifetime "underachiever." Working as hard as probably I'd guess the top half of the class and finishing at the top shows me how much potential I've had but just not utilized efficiently.

Haha not to be arrogant but this pretty much describes me to a T.

Me too haha. Its really sad, but my law school gpa is higher then any semester of my undergrad.

Yep, echo that again here.

[afterglow99]

Second--and to answer your question--it appears that transfer decisions are made based solely on your first year law school GPA, class rank and school rank. It is similar to the weight given to LSAT and UGPA when going through the initial law school admissions process. Softs don't matter. UGPA won't matter any more than high school GPA mattered for admission to law school.

The exceptions to this are YLS, SLS and HLS, all of which consider UGPA at some level, albeit not a huge consideration, apparently. You don't need to worry about transferring to those from a T4 school.

Where do you get this info? There is quite a bit of talk on transferapps (the yahoogroups database) about UGPA mattering (albeit only slightly). Obviously first year law school grades + law school rank are the most important, by far, but I get the impression that UGPA does matter on the margins - certainly more than 'high school GPA during law school admissions'.

Does anyone think it puts you at any sort of disadvantage for transferring if your current school doesn't rank?

[engineer]

Also, unless you have that 4.0 in the bank, expecting it, relying on it, or even thinking that good grades are probable is lunacy. A lot of people bust their asses at law school and the grading process is significantly more random than most people admit. Don't worry, 80% of your classmates are planning on getting a 4.0 as well, and although there is usually one exception to the rule, statistics say that person is not you.

This is so, so, so, so, so true. Unless you're at a school where every professor is paid to care about their students' performance (if you find such a school, PLEASE tell me), then you really cannot guarantee that randomness will not play a role in grading.

For example, my 1L class is broken into 80-person sections, and those sections are broken down further into legal writing sections of about 40 people. My school imposes a mandatory curve that basically regulate the grades. If you do a statistical analysis on my school's grade breakdown, you'll find that there's about a 15% error rate in legal writing grades, which is to say that your "true" performance within the 1L class (if everyone's memos, briefs, etc. were graded by one professor and ranked from best to worst) may be 15% different than the grade you received. That is hardly a statistically significant variable. You need approximately 80-90 people in your section in order for the grades within the section to be "acceptable" indicators of your performance within the 1L class, which is how your rank is computed.

In classes like that, it has a lot to do with luck. Moreover, some schools have reputations of "stacking" sections to "weed out" students on scholarships...these are the rules of the game. Saying that you're going to be first in your class at any school is absolutely retarded, and I would bet anything against that being true.

Just do your best, try your hardest, and learn how to interview. Meet people, don't be an asshole gunner bent on transferring, and you might actually get jobs that people at higher ranked schools may miss out on.

If you're really pissed that you're not in HYS, then do something about it. Plenty of people have been wildly successful without having attended the ultra-elite schools. It's more about attitude than anything else. Big law firms higher brains; it's really no different than physical labor...they may make big bucks, but from my understanding, those jobs don't really afford much in terms of creativity or fulfillment of life goals. I guess you really just have to ask yourself why you're looking to transfer and what you're trying to get out of it. If this is an intra-city change because X is ranked Y USNWR-points higher than Z, you're not doing it right.

[vanwinkle]

Does anyone think it puts you at any sort of disadvantage for transferring if your current school doesn't rank?

Schools will be able to find out what the curve is at your school and determine your estimated class rank if they're actually interested in you.