Should We Transfer? (Non-T14 1Ls Who Owned Exams) Forum

[traydeuce]

Well I have a whole thread about me already, but to repeat myself, I got a 4.0 at W&L and they'd have to pay me millions not to transfer. Seriously, I'd only start to think about it at five or ten.

[MarkTwain]

Arrow's post = TCR. Transfer! The OCI horror stories you've heard are not a representative sample. Complaints are heard more loudly than the silent stories of transfer students who avoid rubbing their success in others' faces. My friend who left Fordham said he knew a TON of top 10% students who did not find jobs ITE. I don't assume his knowledge to be representative, but you guys shouldn't assume you know everyone's situation before deciding that students at the top of a T30 are generally okay ITE. As for Arrow's post: the lasting impact of a J.D. from certain schools outweighs temporary benefits of staying, if they ARE there.

[Black-Blue]

but your legal career lasts for what...30-40 years (assuming you do not retire early)?

Actually, I think it's more like 20 years average. After a while, people leave the field to go into other fields.

[megaTTTron]

I just spoke with a second professor today about transferring (one from Harvard, the other from another T20). Both suggested that I hands down transfer. Even with the good grades. I'm paying sticker and because of that they told me that unless I get some $$$ from my school, there's no reason not to transfer.

I'm still on the fence about it.

Treydeuce - even if W&L gave you a full scholly (I don't know if they have a 2L scholly program based on 1L grades) would you stay??

[mpasi]

What does OCI mean? Pardon my ignorance. Is there a TLS glossary somewhere? I can't follow half of what you cats say because you're using acronyms.

[mpasi]

I just spoke with a second professor today about transferring (one from Harvard, the other from another T20). Both suggested that I hands down transfer. Even with the good grades. I'm paying sticker and because of that they told me that unless I get some $$$ from my school, there's no reason not to transfer.

I'm still on the fence about it.

Treydeuce - even if W&L gave you a full scholly (I don't know if they have a 2L scholly program based on 1L grades) would you stay??

Where are you currently attending?

[megaTTTron]

What does OCI mean? Pardon my ignorance. Is there a TLS glossary somewhere? I can't follow half of what you cats say because you're using acronyms.

OCI = On Campus Interviews

Where are you currently attending?

A school in the top 30.

[chitown825]

No 0L opinions please and thank you

[XxSpyKEx]

Definitely apply further down the rankings then that even if you remain #1 next semester. Based on what I've read on yahoo transferapps and elsewhere- T6 from a TTTT is pretty much unheard of. t10 or t14 might happen but that's not a guarantee either. t20 is a lock at #1 (but not necessarily so as #9).... If you actually look at the number of spots open at these schools and the number of students at t3 & t4 total it explains why it's not typical to make a massive jump. E.g. top 5 students at every t3 & t4 = 500 students. Not all of them will apply to transfer, but even if you assume 2/3 of them do, there is no way 330 TTT & TTTT students are going to t14s. I'm not saying don't apply, but definitely apply down into t30, and if you aren't on much of a scholly even applying to a t100 (anything below t30 that is in the region you want to be in) as a safety wouldn't be a bad idea.

What t30 schools do you think would be worth 2 years of sticker price + the 40k I already have (LS + UG)?

I am in a pretty desirable secondary market so giving up a good rank and a potentially big increase in scholly money to go anywhere that wouldn't give me portability would be tough to justify. Outside of the t14 I would think UCLA / USC / Texas / ND would be the best bet in that regard, no?

Last year I was a t3 (regional) w/ a full ride. Personally, I didn't think GULC was worth paying sticker at (meaning t30s weren't either).

If you can squeeze a full-ride out of your t4, and you’re happy with staying there, then it may not be such a bad deal. But if they don’t offer you’re a full-ride at the end of the year (or at least close to – ending up with under $60K total at graduation is manageable with a $40K /year job, whereas a $100K is not), then leaving for a t30 might be worth it. It’s really more then anything weighing your options, which unfortunately, for t3 or t4 students (that are paying tuition) aren’t great ITE (i.e. it’s hard to justify paying $100K+ for 2 year at t30 when it means being locked out of biglaw, but its also hard to justify paying anything at the t3/t4 for the other 2 years).

[ToTransferOrNot]

I feel obliged to throw my hat in here. I transfered in to Chicago (via ED) from Wisconsin.

My general thoughts re: transferring: unless you are walking away from a full ride at your current school, and you're thinking about GULC/one of the other "low T14," transferring is probably the right decision.

Now, regarding my experience in particular:

Re OCI:

OCI was a nightmare for me, and a lot of other transfer students. It ended up working out for me as I got a position with Mayer Brown-Chicago, which was one of my top choices, and they simply would not have considered my application this year if I was still at Wisconsin. (I was told that by a partner at my callback -- who was a Wisconsin grad.) That said, it worked out after well over a month on the wait list, and it was the only offer I got.

That said, this is NOT the normal story for transfer students -- this was just a really oddball year. Transfers have historically done quite well at the T14.

Re the Early Decision Process:

ED at Chicago is binding. Do not do it unless you really want to be in Chicago -- folks who got accepted via ED almost universally had the numbers to get in to Columbia (irrelevant for me, as I would have taken Chicago over Columbia without a second thought,) and most of us probably could have gotten in to Harvard (I know that there are people who got in to H from lower-ranked schools than Wisconsin, with approximately the same class rank, if not a little lower.) The what-ifs that go along with walking away from the possibility of Harvard (and Yale/Stanford, for that matter, though I'm not as confident that I would have been accepted there) are rough, especially because they are apparently generous with need-based aid for transfers. If you don't have your heart set on practicing in Chicago, I would highly recommend you stay away from Chicago ED.

The exception, I believe, is people in the bottom of the T1/top of the T2, who have no real chance at a HYS acceptance even at #1 in the class. The ED process may give you just enough of a boost to get you in when you wouldn't have otherwise.

All of that said, there are significant benefits to ED. Knowing where you will be living in May (particularly since classes don't start until October at Chicago, though OCI is still in August,) as opposed to the middle of August, is really great. It also focuses your journal write-on process. That said, getting on to Law Review as a transfer is rough -- I don't think anyone pulled it off this year -- because they only take 10 people via the write-on competition in general. I did manage to write on to a secondary journal, though.

I *love* the quarter system here.

[Attucks]

Let's hear from the transfers who took off and wish they stuck it out (were on a full ride before, closer to their target market, had great connections they left behind, etc.)

That's the real story.

[Lawl Shcool]

Last year I was a t3 (regional) w/ a full ride. Personally, I didn't think GULC was worth paying sticker at (meaning t30s weren't either).

If you can squeeze a full-ride out of your t4, and you’re happy with staying there, then it may not be such a bad deal. But if they don’t offer you’re a full-ride at the end of the year (or at least close to – ending up with under $60K total at graduation is manageable with a $40K /year job, whereas a $100K is not), then leaving for a t30 might be worth it. It’s really more then anything weighing your options, which unfortunately, for t3 or t4 students (that are paying tuition) aren’t great ITE (i.e. it’s hard to justify paying $100K+ for 2 year at t30 when it means being locked out of biglaw, but its also hard to justify paying anything at the t3/t4 for the other 2 years).

It seems like we are on the same page here. I almost think that if I stay I would have a marginally better chance at biglaw (obviously through family connections not OCI or cold resume sending) by being able to put #1 (rankings came out today) down vs. at best maybe top 1/3 or so at a t30. That being said, t14 would obviously be a different story.

Any past evidence of a t4 school offering a full + stipend after 1L to induce staying?

Also, I spoke with a dean today who said last year we had a GULC and Berkeley transfer and neither were #1, but in the top 5%. So there is hope for me yet!

[megaTTTron]

Let's hear from the transfers who took off and wish they stuck it out (were on a full ride before, closer to their target market, had great connections they left behind, etc.)

That's the real story.

I hear what you're saying.

At my t30, I know a transfer from a t70 who was t5%, and straight bombed his fall semester here. I feel truly awful for him, he says he wishes he had stayed all the time.

Which makes me think - unless you're going to a t14, it's not worth it. (Exceptions exist - like if you want to work in Los Angeles it would be fine to transfer to USC or UCLA).

[apper123]

Let's hear from the transfers who took off and wish they stuck it out (were on a full ride before, closer to their target market, had great connections they left behind, etc.)

That's the real story.

I hear what you're saying.

At my t30, I know a transfer from a t70 who was t5%, and straight bombed his fall semester here. I feel truly awful for him, he says he wishes he had stayed all the time.

Which makes me think - unless you're going to a t14, it's not worth it. (Exceptions exist - like if you want to work in Los Angeles it would be fine to transfer to USC or UCLA).

Why would a t5% from a t70 go to a T30? That makes no sense. He's got GULC and probably some T10s easy.

[snowboarder]

Just got my grades, and I have just below a 4.00 at UCLA/USC. Thinking of transferring to HYS or Berkeley. I didn't get any scholarships coming in. Does anyone know how UCLA/USC treats people trying to transfer out or if they offer scholarships between 1L and 2L (it doesn't look like it from the info I found on their scholarships)? Does anyone know how likely acceptance at HYS is based on my grades?

[OperaSoprano]

Arrow's post = TCR. Transfer! The OCI horror stories you've heard are not a representative sample. Complaints are heard more loudly than the silent stories of transfer students who avoid rubbing their success in others' faces. My friend who left Fordham said he knew a TON of top 10% students who did not find jobs ITE. I don't assume his knowledge to be representative, but you guys shouldn't assume you know everyone's situation before deciding that students at the top of a T30 are generally okay ITE. As for Arrow's post: the lasting impact of a J.D. from certain schools outweighs temporary benefits of staying, if they ARE there.

We both have anecdotal information about Fordham's class of 2011 (assuming that was your friend's year). The consensus is that it was a lost class, here and at other schools. Though 2011 was atypical, the law review people I talked to seemed happy with their options. Of course it still comes down to interviewing and personality, and there are anomalies at every school (rumor has it that the #2 person at Cornell struck out at OCI) but top 10% at Fordham has historically been a very good place to be (IE: before the bubble). For my part, I have no official rank yet. We are designated top 10%, top quarter, top third and top half, but not until after second semester. Sealocust gave me an estimate, though our fluctuating curve makes it a rough one.

I am paying sticker. I will probably always pay sticker, because my school can't afford to buy me, or bribe me to stay on. Fordham is not wealthy compared with its peers, but the administration makes the most of what it has. It is a scrupulously honest school, and I'm very proud to be a student here. I would be remiss not to admit to a psychological component-- Fordham took a chance on me when I didn't believe in myself, and I feel strong loyalty in return. If I didn't think I could get the job I wanted here, it would be different, but I know there are Fordham alums at all the places I can see myself working. I adore Arrow, and I support him and his decision 100%, but I don't think everyone should transfer just because they can. When we have actual hard data to compare from last year's OCI, it will make sense to revisit this conversation. I believe the data will support my assertions about the top Fordham students who choose to stay. If I am wrong, of course I will let it be noted.

[blzrchick2]

I finished my first semester at WUSTL in the top 5%... I think there are definite pros to staying (and the more I think of it, the more pros there really are), but I think at the end of the day it would be nearly impossible for me to turn down HYS (if given the opportunity).

Are there any older students who chose not to transfer that ended up regretting not transferring?

I'm at a school in the 50s, I was top 7% after my first year, chose not to transfer and couldn't be happier about that decision. Part of my decision was that I wanted to study in London for my Fall Semester of 2L year through my school, part of it was that I had created a really great academic and personal environment for myself. I got just as many interviews during 2L OCI as students from T20 schools in my region because of my rank (and I did a dozen screening interviews via videoconference from London which was kind of awesome). I got a biglaw SA gig last summer, and got an offer from there, I also have a clerkship lined up after graduation this May.

For me, and I think OperaSoprano echoed this, it wasn't about what name was going to be on the diploma and what extra dollars that possibly could mean in an objective world. And by that, I mean comparing the statistics of how someone does at OCI or in the market in general from a T60 school and how someone does at a T14. For me, it was about being in an environment where I could flourish the most and still having a good shot at the job market. I admit I am a lot luckier in finding jobs than many at my school, as several in the Top 10% at my school still don't have jobs. But I credit the reason to doing well in interviews that I was genuinely happy, I enjoyed where I was and that enabled me to do well. Those objective stats about who does better from what school didn't really apply to me, because I wouldn't have been as happy and therefore wouldn't have done as well somewhere else. Also, as cheesy as it is, I've made friends that are going to be lifelong and that have gotten me through the grueling nature of law school. I wouldn't trade those experiences with those people and at this T2 school really for anything. And I guess seeing as how I still got the biglaw job and a clerkship, there's not much else to trade for anyway. I am not trying to brag in any sense but just to show people thinking that they have to transfer to have a shot at jobs: You can get everything you want even if you're at a T2 school, you just need to be smart.

I also had essentially a full tuition scholarship at my T2 that I've kept all 3 years so I will basically graduate with just the debt from loan expenses, plus maybe 5K per year for tuition. So financially, in both the short term during school and the long term in having the pressure off to pay back loans, transferring was not the best option for me.

I think looking at what others like Arrow have said, if your main concern is ranking and what that objectively means for the job market, go ahead and transfer. But for some people, that doesn't weigh quite as much as personal happiness being in the location and with the people you already are. Good luck to all of you in deciding what you want to do, and good luck applying to those that do want to transfer!

[OperaSoprano]

I finished my first semester at WUSTL in the top 5%... I think there are definite pros to staying (and the more I think of it, the more pros there really are), but I think at the end of the day it would be nearly impossible for me to turn down HYS (if given the opportunity).

Are there any older students who chose not to transfer that ended up regretting not transferring?

I'm at a school in the 50s, I was top 7% after my first year, chose not to transfer and couldn't be happier about that decision. Part of my decision was that I wanted to study in London for my Fall Semester of 2L year through my school, part of it was that I had created a really great academic and personal environment for myself. I got just as many interviews during 2L OCI as students from T20 schools in my region because of my rank (and I did a dozen screening interviews via videoconference from London which was kind of awesome). I got a biglaw SA gig last summer, and got an offer from there, I also have a clerkship lined up after graduation this May.

For me, and I think OperaSoprano echoed this, it wasn't about what name was going to be on the diploma and what extra dollars that possibly could mean in an objective world. And by that, I mean comparing the statistics of how someone does at OCI or in the market in general from a T60 school and how someone does at a T14. For me, it was about being in an environment where I could flourish the most and still having a good shot at the job market. I admit I am a lot luckier in finding jobs than many at my school, as several in the Top 10% at my school still don't have jobs. But I credit the reason to doing well in interviews that I was genuinely happy, I enjoyed where I was and that enabled me to do well. Those objective stats about who does better from what school didn't really apply to me, because I wouldn't have been as happy and therefore wouldn't have done as well somewhere else. Also, as cheesy as it is, I've made friends that are going to be lifelong and that have gotten me through the grueling nature of law school. I wouldn't trade those experiences with those people and at this T2 school really for anything. And I guess seeing as how I still got the biglaw job and a clerkship, there's not much else to trade for anyway. I am not trying to brag in any sense but just to show people thinking that they have to transfer to have a shot at jobs: You can get everything you want even if you're at a T2 school, you just need to be smart.

I also had essentially a full tuition scholarship at my T2 that I've kept all 3 years so I will basically graduate with just the debt from loan expenses, plus maybe 5K per year for tuition. So financially, in both the short term during school and the long term in having the pressure off to pay back loans, transferring was not the best option for me.

I think looking at what others like Arrow have said, if your main concern is ranking and what that objectively means for the job market, go ahead and transfer. But for some people, that doesn't weigh quite as much as personal happiness being in the location and with the people you already are. Good luck to all of you in deciding what you want to do, and good luck applying to those that do want to transfer!

Congrats! I echo your sentiments about personal happiness being correlated with performance, and this is a major factor in my own decision. Thanks for sharing your story here.

[megaTTTron]

Let's hear from the transfers who took off and wish they stuck it out (were on a full ride before, closer to their target market, had great connections they left behind, etc.)

That's the real story.

I hear what you're saying.

At my t30, I know a transfer from a t70 who was t5%, and straight bombed his fall semester here. I feel truly awful for him, he says he wishes he had stayed all the time.

Which makes me think - unless you're going to a t14, it's not worth it. (Exceptions exist - like if you want to work in Los Angeles it would be fine to transfer to USC or UCLA).

Why would a t5% from a t70 go to a T30? That makes no sense. He's got GULC and probably some T10s easy.

t15%* (footinmouth)

[traydeuce]

Treydeuce - even if W&L gave you a full scholly (I don't know if they have a 2L scholly program based on 1L grades) would you stay??

No. Like I said, they'd have to pay me 5-10 million to make me even think about staying. I'm entirely serious. I don't know, I'm a status whore.

[megaTTTron]

Treydeuce - even if W&L gave you a full scholly (I don't know if they have a 2L scholly program based on 1L grades) would you stay??

No. Like I said, they'd have to pay me 5-10 million to make me even think about staying. I'm entirely serious. I don't know, I'm a status whore.

I hear you - if you're # 1 in your class (which it seems like you might be) I don't see why you wouldn't go for HYS. I don't think it makes you a status whore, it's just being realistic about job opportunities. Especially if you don't really like where you are now. Good luck.

[apper123]

If I am currently t3 % at my mid-level T2 and, let's assume best case scenario, I stay T3 % after 2nd semester... how realistic is HYS/CCN? (im bad with the acronym tiering crap so if i forgot someone let me know)

[traydeuce]

Treydeuce - even if W&L gave you a full scholly (I don't know if they have a 2L scholly program based on 1L grades) would you stay??

No. Like I said, they'd have to pay me 5-10 million to make me even think about staying. I'm entirely serious. I don't know, I'm a status whore.

I hear you - if you're # 1 in your class (which it seems like you might be) I don't see why you wouldn't go for HYS. I don't think it makes you a status whore, it's just being realistic about job opportunities. Especially if you don't really like where you are now. Good luck.

I just think it's unlikely that I'll stay at the top, classes are so boring this semester. I think I'll apply EA to Georgetown just to be safe. And yes, I know I'll have to give them deposits and such.

[megaTTTron]

Treydeuce - even if W&L gave you a full scholly (I don't know if they have a 2L scholly program based on 1L grades) would you stay??

No. Like I said, they'd have to pay me 5-10 million to make me even think about staying. I'm entirely serious. I don't know, I'm a status whore.

I hear you - if you're # 1 in your class (which it seems like you might be) I don't see why you wouldn't go for HYS. I don't think it makes you a status whore, it's just being realistic about job opportunities. Especially if you don't really like where you are now. Good luck.

I just think it's unlikely that I'll stay at the top, classes are so boring this semester. I think I'll apply EA to Georgetown just to be safe. And yes, I know I'll have to give them deposits and such.

I think you're smart to do GTown. And to not do Chicago's binding EA. Although, even if you do markedly worse, you'll likely still remain in the top 10%, which keeps other t14s in the picture.

[traydeuce]

I think you're smart to do GTown. And to not do Chicago's binding EA. Although, even if you do markedly worse, you'll likely still remain in the top 10%, which keeps other t14s in the picture.

Yeah, that's true. Even if I got a 3.5 this semester, I'd have a 3.76 for the year, and that's currently top ten. It's a tough call with the deposit money but I'm not sure that I'd take Virginia or Duke over Georgetown, and I don't know that schools above UVA would be too crazy about me if I had a weak second semester.