Georgetown EA 2011 Thread Forum

[Big Shrimpin]

Has anyone heard any stories of people visiting a campus, speaking with admissions, and getting in?

I did this for GULC/GW after exams were over/beginning of the summer. I didn't get a chance to visit Penn, Mich, or Duke, so I can't speak to those schools.

GULC wouldn't give me a tour, but rather told me to do a "self-tour." When I asked if I could speak with someone from admissions, some undergrad-looking lady came out (wouldn't talk to me in her office, rather, would only talk to me in a hallway near the admissions office) and wouldn't answer anything but stock questions about the school, etc... It was by FAR the most unhelpful experience EVER, and I was really put-off by the whole ordeal.

When I visited GW, however, I was invited-in for an interview/personal tour with one of those assistant admissions people. I mean, I doubt either visit made any difference in my candidacy either way, but it was a nice touch to be treated like a person. Plus, GW CDO staff were basically my secretaries in helping to get things together for OCI. Of the 7 transfers that I know, each has a jerb (4 = biglaw and 3= gubmint). I'm not sure about transfers at GULC, however. I'd be wary of the lottery system, as it could cut both in favor/against the candidacy of a transfer. To be sure, the preselect system has similar pros/cons, but you can't screw yourself by ranking your bids ineffectively.

To the deferees: don't sweat it, and grind away at finals. Some of you will end up at schools MUCH better than GULC, some will end up at schools in the T20 tier, and some will stay.
To the acceptees: congrats...but don't get complacent and let those grades slip...you've still got to go through OCI, wherever you end up next year.

To everybody: after finals, shoot all of your other transfer apps out. After apps, polish your cover letter/resume and do your mail campaign. After that, make your school decision in time to do OCI (wherever that may be). I'd imagine the reason that many of you are making the switch is for better jerb access, so you'll want to be mindful of OCI bidding deadlines, as schools will continue to accept transfers AFTER their OCI bidding deadlines are over. Don't get caught with your pants down.

Okay, enough for me, I need to get back to studying for my last final.

[Vronsky]

thank you kindly for the advice, shrimp.

The differences for OCI at various schools has me concerned about transferring in the regular window. Basically, the whole point for my intention to transfer is to improve my odds for securing a BigLaw SA position. However, I'm not sure how various T14 schools treat transfers for this purpose.

basically it comes down to: My current T2 w/few firms officially attending OCI, but I'm sitting atop the pecking order for what scraps there are vs. a T14 (assuming I get in somewhere) with more firms, but I'm just a needle in the haystack and a transfer at that.

Do you know anything else about the different OCI policies at different schools and which ones are transfer-friendly?
Or any links with such info since I'm sure your busy this time of the year?

[Big Shrimpin]

thank you kindly for the advice, shrimp.

The differences for OCI at various schools has me concerned about transferring in the regular window. Basically, the whole point for my intention to transfer is to improve my odds for securing a BigLaw SA position. However, I'm not sure how various T14 schools treat transfers for this purpose.

basically it comes down to: My current T2 w/few firms officially attending OCI, but I'm sitting atop the pecking order for what scraps there are vs. a T14 (assuming I get in somewhere) with more firms, but I'm just a needle in the haystack and a transfer at that.

Do you know anything else about the different OCI policies at different schools and which ones are transfer-friendly?
Or any links with such info since I'm sure your busy this time of the year?

So, while I don't have hard data on how other schools treat transfers w/r/t OCI/etc..., I can offer the following insight. Fordham doesn't let transfers participate in OCI (I think), which is uncharacteristic of just about every other school I've ever heard of. Like I said in my last post, some schools will continue to admit students after their OCI deadlines have passed, so be wary of that. Go on each school's website, which should provide information about OCI deadlines, transfers, etc... For the most part, schools that take lots of transfers (GW, GULC, CLS, NYC, Mich, Berk, HLS) usually have some good info about transfers/OCI/journal competitions/etc...

Re OCI: the short list of firms at your current school should be unsettling. I've heard more than a handful of stories about top 10%/LR doods at those schools not scoring any kind of biglaw gig. Don't be fooled into thinking you've got it made at your current school just because you're at the top of the class. I'd wager a bet that at least 30-50% of top 10%/LR types at TT schools don't get biglaw from their school's OCI (of course, some of them get gigs through networking, etc...but OCI is often not very fruitful). At (edit: most) T20s, you're going to have FAR more biglaw employers at OCI (like, often at least one order of magnitude, lol). Some see transferring as a plus factor, and some do not. There's NO WAY to accurately quantify who does/does not see transfers positively, just know that it cuts both ways. Again, bidding systems (lottery/preselect) are a concern, and you'll want to know what you're getting yourself into when the time comes.

Search some threads from last year, as we all went through the same things you all will go through this summer/next fall. Rules of thumb: if you're deadset on biglaw and (1) you get accepted to a T10, then transfer unless you're being offered a no-strings-attached full ride for the remainder of your 2L/3L years, (2) you get accepted to a T14ish school, then be wary about the move if you've got scholarship money (same no strings rule applies too, and to the rest of these), but know that you're probably in a better position transferring than you are currently w/r/t biglaw gigs, (3) you get accepted to a T20ish school, be more cautious, as things seem to be feast or famine around OCI time and making the jump/losing scholly and GPA could be devastating if you don't get a biglaw gig, (4) you can only make a lateral transfer, don't do it under any circumstance because losing your GPA sucks.

HTH?

[keg411]

Big Shrimpin, were all the transfers you know IP?

[Big Shrimpin]

Big Shrimpin, were all the transfers you know IP?

3 are IP, including myself. Each has biglaw.

[keg411]

Big Shrimpin, were all the transfers you know IP?

3 are IP, including myself. Each has biglaw.

I figured. Thanks.

[Vronsky]

thank you kindly for the advice, shrimp.

The differences for OCI at various schools has me concerned about transferring in the regular window. Basically, the whole point for my intention to transfer is to improve my odds for securing a BigLaw SA position. However, I'm not sure how various T14 schools treat transfers for this purpose.

basically it comes down to: My current T2 w/few firms officially attending OCI, but I'm sitting atop the pecking order for what scraps there are vs. a T14 (assuming I get in somewhere) with more firms, but I'm just a needle in the haystack and a transfer at that.

Do you know anything else about the different OCI policies at different schools and which ones are transfer-friendly?
Or any links with such info since I'm sure your busy this time of the year?

So, while I don't have hard data on how other schools treat transfers w/r/t OCI/etc..., I can offer the following insight. Fordham doesn't let transfers participate in OCI (I think), which is uncharacteristic of just about every other school I've ever heard of. Like I said in my last post, some schools will continue to admit students after their OCI deadlines have passed, so be wary of that. Go on each school's website, which should provide information about OCI deadlines, transfers, etc... For the most part, schools that take lots of transfers (GW, GULC, CLS, NYC, Mich, Berk, HLS) usually have some good info about transfers/OCI/journal competitions/etc...

Re OCI: the short list of firms at your current school should be unsettling. I've heard more than a handful of stories about top 10%/LR doods at those schools not scoring any kind of biglaw gig. Don't be fooled into thinking you've got it made at your current school just because you're at the top of the class. I'd wager a bet that at least 30-50% of top 10%/LR types at TT schools don't get biglaw from their school's OCI (of course, some of them get gigs through networking, etc...but OCI is often not very fruitful). At (edit: most) T20s, you're going to have FAR more biglaw employers at OCI (like, often at least one order of magnitude, lol). Some see transferring as a plus factor, and some do not. There's NO WAY to accurately quantify who does/does not see transfers positively, just know that it cuts both ways. Again, bidding systems (lottery/preselect) are a concern, and you'll want to know what you're getting yourself into when the time comes.

Search some threads from last year, as we all went through the same things you all will go through this summer/next fall. Rules of thumb: if you're deadset on biglaw and (1) you get accepted to a T10, then transfer unless you're being offered a no-strings-attached full ride for the remainder of your 2L/3L years, (2) you get accepted to a T14ish school, then be wary about the move if you've got scholarship money (same no strings rule applies too, and to the rest of these), but know that you're probably in a better position transferring than you are currently w/r/t biglaw gigs, (3) you get accepted to a T20ish school, be more cautious, as things seem to be feast or famine around OCI time and making the jump/losing scholly and GPA could be devastating if you don't get a biglaw gig, (4) you can only make a lateral transfer, don't do it under any circumstance because losing your GPA sucks.

HTH?

Thanks again for the advice and please see PM as I'm derailing the GULC EA thread.

[sarryn]

I don't think anyone minds at all. As potential transfer students, we're all very interested to know about OCI for transfer students. more importantly, OCI for DC based transfer students. Post away!

[Regionality]

I don't think anyone minds at all. As potential transfer students, we're all very interested to know about OCI for transfer students. more importantly, OCI for DC based transfer students. Post away!

Agreed...dear lord please let this thread be derailed. We've hyper-analyzed it all enough already...a substantive discussion about OCI impacts on transfers would be welcomed.

[3ThrowAway99]

Deferred via email. Had gotten the 4/25/11 update. Slightly above 3.65 GPA at lower T1 (traditionally would put me just outside top 10% I think, but the way my school grades-no rank or percentiles determined until after full year, and a grading policy change this year-really hard for me to say for sure). I have family legacy, so I've been hoping for a slight boost, but I suspect any boost will be slight at best.

[Vronsky]

Very well then... the gist of my PM to BigShrimpin was that I'm stuck between: (potentially, keep in mind, as i got deferred! -- but this certainly applies to everyone who got in EA)

(1) OCI at my T2, where admittedly the number of BigLAw firms (i.e. those that pay market for SAs) that participate is low, but I stand a good chance of landing one of those few SAs (in comparison to lower ranked students at my T2)
vs.
(2) OCI as a transfer (at a school like GULC, but not necessarily) where the number of firms is 10x or more greater, but i'm just a needle in a haystack and a transfer at that.

Has anyone else given this issue serious thought? Big Shrimpin's post made it clear that there is a major difference b/t a T10 school like, say, Columbia -- where the overall benefits of OCI are so much greater that it basically always makes sense to transfer, versus a T20 like, say, lets call it GW, where OCI is not that much better than your current T2/TTT when you factor in LR and scholarships. The problem is that GULC falls right in the middle of that, where its not exactly clear if OCI is substantially better.

Does anyone know more about the lottery system at GULC for transfers? For example, if it is prioritized based on GPA, how are transfers treated? Are they basically treated as if they finished 1L at GULC around median? Or are they prioritized after all non-transfers? Surely that can't be the case.

Furthermore, and this is sort of fact-specific for me since I go to a school in the greater NYC area, my school has been trying to sell me on the idea that although only a pitiful handful of firms officially participate in OCI, my OCS does selectively submit a dozen or so resumes to more prestigious firms that wouldn't dare show their faces at my school. Has anyone else received a similar pitch? Do you buy it?

TL;DR - If your only consideration is OCI, is it worth it to transfer or stay at a T2 where you are in a good position to get whatever scraps are available?

[3ThrowAway99]

Very well then... the gist of my PM to BigShrimpin was that I'm stuck between: (potentially, keep in mind, as i got deferred! -- but this certainly applies to everyone who got in EA)

(1) OCI at my T2, where admittedly the number of BigLAw firms (i.e. those that pay market for SAs) that participate is low, but I stand a good chance of landing one of those few SAs (in comparison to lower ranked students at my T2)
vs.
(2) OCI as a transfer (at a school like GULC, but not necessarily) where the number of firms is 10x or more greater, but i'm just a needle in a haystack and a transfer at that.

Has anyone else given this issue serious thought? Big Shrimpin's post made it clear that there is a major difference b/t a T10 school like, say, Columbia -- where the overall benefits of OCI are so much greater that it basically always makes sense to transfer, versus a T20 like, say, lets call it GW, where OCI is not that much better than your current T2/TTT when you factor in LR and scholarships. The problem is that GULC falls right in the middle of that, where its not exactly clear if OCI is substantially better.

Does anyone know more about the lottery system at GULC for transfers? For example, if it is prioritized based on GPA, how are transfers treated? Are they basically treated as if they finished 1L at GULC around median? Or are they prioritized after all non-transfers? Surely that can't be the case.

Furthermore, and this is sort of fact-specific for me since I go to a school in the greater NYC area, my school has been trying to sell me on the idea that although only a pitiful handful of firms officially participate in OCI, my OCS does selectively submit a dozen or so resumes to more prestigious firms that wouldn't dare show their faces at my school. Has anyone else received a similar pitch? Do you buy it?

TL;DR - If your only consideration is OCI, is it worth it to transfer or stay at a T2 where you are in a good position to get whatever scraps are available?

I think if your only consideration is OCI (firm job), it definitely doesn't necessarily make sense to transfer to lower T14 from many lower-T1 or upper-T2 schools if you are at the very top of your class. At least at my lower T1, I get the sense that anyone toward the very top of the class (top 5-10% or better) almost has a lock on a firm job in the nearest major market from 2L OCI (where market pay is prob 115k/yr v. 160k, but COL in the area is also much lower than NYC for instance). I don't know how many of these 2L SAs translate into permanent offers, and it may be that in fact there are some very top students geting no-offered (but that's not my impression).

I think where the weight could really shift in favor of staying is if you are on scholly at current school. In that case you could be throwing up to 100k away (assuming full scholly for years 2 and 3, and assuming a higher cost of living in DC) for what may be similar chances at a firm through OCI. However, the lower T14 degree could give you more portability for where you go after graduating, and perhaps other benefits as well.

Since I have also applied to GULC and have similar general goals (in terms of transferring) I may have a conflict of interest in terms of posting advice here. Yet I think I am not too far off the mark in stating that transferring is not necessarily the best option, especially if it looks like you will have a very strong shot at what you want (a firm job) and are on substantial scholarship (if in fact you are).

[Big Shrimpin]

Really busy right now. I'll get to the PMs/poasts by tomorrow morning.

[j7108]

Really busy right now. I'll get to the PMs/posts by tomorrow morning.

It's only finals. Who needs those?

[lawfuture10]

Anyone sitting complete and not deferred or accepted yet?

[PitchO20]

Anyone sitting complete and not deferred or accepted yet?

Yep. You too? Anxiously waiting to see where this goes...

[Big Shrimpin]

Some of this was included in my PM, but in the interest of posterity, I'll reiterate some of my thoughts. (below, in bold)

Very well then... the gist of my PM to BigShrimpin was that I'm stuck between: (potentially, keep in mind, as i got deferred! -- but this certainly applies to everyone who got in EA)

(1) OCI at my T2, where admittedly the number of BigLAw firms (i.e. those that pay market for SAs) that participate is low, but I stand a good chance of landing one of those few SAs (in comparison to lower ranked students at my T2)
vs.
(2) OCI as a transfer (at a school like GULC, but not necessarily) where the number of firms is 10x or more greater, but i'm just a needle in a haystack and a transfer at that.

This is quite a difficult situation, one that I intimated in my poast above. The relevant factors in this analysis are class rank/GPA, the number of firms coming to OCI, the ability to bid effectively in a pure-lottery system, and potential employers' opinions about transfers. As everybody knows, you lose your GPA when you transfer. While this is a disadvantage, it's not necessarily a bad thing, especially during OCI at your new school. Your resume will reflect your first semester performance, and transferring will likely spark a conversation about your career goals, interest, etc...which can be a great way to nail an interview. To be sure, however, you'll need to repeat performance during 2L year to maintain a good GPA. Be warned, because OCI/journal/moot court at a new school is a BIG undertaking, and you may very well end up near the median at your new school. Hopefully, if OCI has been fruitful, this shouldn't be too problematic. Just be aware that the 2L fall crunch on a REALLY busy OCI schedule can make doing well in school difficult.

The number of firms coming to transferee school OCI will, most likely, be near an order of magnitude larger than firms coming to your current TT. For me, as I may have mentioned above, the difference was like 12:100(ish) transferor OCI:transferee OCI. To be sure, the students at the top of the transferee school are going to have the pick of that list, but this is also where bidding strategy and firm preferences come into play. For the lottery system, you rank your bids. Thus, your ranking strategy will be a function of (a) where you want to work, geographically, (b) where you want to work, subjectively/intangibles (e.g. which firm environments you prefer, cultures, etc...are the "intangibles'"), (c) the firm's GPA/other requirements, (d) the firm's general selectivity level (e.g. I wouldn't estimate bidding CSM/Skadden/S&C as a transfer at GULC would be a good idea...unless someone with experience wants to make an argument to the contrary), and (e) the practices of interest to you/firm specialties. If it was an equation, it would look resemble something only an engineer would love ( ). I didn't do a pure lottery system, so I didn't have to worry about all this, but if anyone goes to any T10 (minus, I think UVA which has a "hybrid" system), you'll have to start thinking about bidding strategies once finals are over.

In the end, be mindful that MANY students who are 10%/LR at their current TT schools will end up with nothing through their school OCI. If I had to guess, nationwide, about 30-50% of the top 10%/LR students at TT schools will end up with a biglaw paying SA through OCI. Sure, some will find jerbs through networking or whatever, but since the most objective/measurable metric that we have is OCI, that estimate should be cause for concern for all those who DEFINITELY want biglaw next summer. I know of quite a few top students at TTs from my hometown who struck out at OCI (some found jerbs through networking, but not until like the 11th hour). ITE, nobody is "safe" because they're top 5%/LR. Nobody. Admittedly, that student will get interviews with just about every biglaw firm that comes to OCI, but I can count at least 3 people I know who had 10-15 OCI interviews and ended up with 0 offers in the end. Biglaw hiring is largely a black box, and nobody can accurately predict whether 5, 10, 15, 20, etc...screening interviews will yield offers. For example, my offer:screening ratio was like 10%. Take a look at last year's OCI thread, buried somewhere in the employment forum. That is a GREAT source of knowledge. Also, look up some thread where a poaster made a table about OCI outcomes, including an analysis about how transfers fared during OCI. When you're making the decision this summer, make sure to go through all that data to get an idea of what OCI is like at different schools as a transfer.

Has anyone else given this issue serious thought? Big Shrimpin's post made it clear that there is a major difference b/t a T10 school like, say, Columbia -- where the overall benefits of OCI are so much greater that it basically always makes sense to transfer, versus a T20 like, say, lets call it GW, where OCI is not that much better than your current T2/TTT when you factor in LR and scholarships. The problem is that GULC falls right in the middle of that, where its not exactly clear if OCI is substantially better.

This is largely correct, but I wouldn't say that OCI at GW is necessarily marginally better than a TT/TTT as a transfer. Again, lots of factors go into this, including w/e, background, interviewing ability, etc... You might get more or less interviews at a school like GW, depending upon how many firms were coming to your TT/TTT OCI. Or maybe not. But if you've got a great scholly, then a transfer to a school like GW is a tough call. GULC, on the other hand, shifts the scale a bit more in the other direction, but the decision is still largely based upon where you want to work, scholly, etc...

Does anyone know more about the lottery system at GULC for transfers? For example, if it is prioritized based on GPA, how are transfers treated? Are they basically treated as if they finished 1L at GULC around median? Or are they prioritized after all non-transfers? Surely that can't be the case.

I can't speak to this, but if anybody wants to know, then call GULC or wherever, especially if you're in at GULC. Also, consider looking through last year's GULC EA thread and PM poasters who ended up matriculating at GULC. In fact, I would suggest that to anybody seriously considering GULC. That will surely be your most reliable source of information.

Furthermore, and this is sort of fact-specific for me since I go to a school in the greater NYC area, my school has been trying to sell me on the idea that although only a pitiful handful of firms officially participate in OCI, my OCS does selectively submit a dozen or so resumes to more prestigious firms that wouldn't dare show their faces at my school. Has anyone else received a similar pitch? Do you buy it?

Don't buy it! Seriously, with all the smoke-and-mirrors shows that OCS' put on these days, should any TLSer really buy into that hype?

TL;DR - If your only consideration is OCI, is it worth it to transfer or stay at a T2 where you are in a good position to get whatever scraps are available?

So good luck all. I'm going to get back to studying for my last final tomorrow, but I'll be around afterwards if anybody has questions.

[ms2010]

That's all very interesting. I'm only torn because I pay next to nothing at my current school but am VERY unhappy at it... to the point that two more years would be pretty tough.

[mantra]

anyone got advice if you do visit?

[Regionality]

anyone got advice if you do visit?

Don't act like a 0L

[XM3045]

Hey guys,

Congrats that got in. If you've got questions about life as a transfer, send me a PM.

Just to knock out the bulk of the questions:

1. You do have a chance to write on to pretty much any journal. However, I would not set your heart on THE law journal as very few transfers (I think 2 last year) actually make it on. But, you have a very good chance of making it onto a secondary journal.

2. In terms of OCI you get treated like a normal GULC student in terms of signing up for the blind lottery (employers can't see your info. until the day before the interview) and you get up to 50 selections (but will probably end up with 10-20 interviews. But don't be stupid with your bids. If you are transferring from a T2, you will not be working at W&C, Cravath or Skadden even if you had a 4.0 at your old school and got an award for curing cancer on the side. Also keep in mind that everyone bids in DC, so look to NYC or secondary markets. I think someone said this earlier, but don't slack off once you get in EA, otherwise you will be really sad at OCI trying to explain away why you were at your shitty transfer school in the first place and your non As from 2nd semester.

3. Signing up for classes here is confusing and a pain in the ass, but by the end of the 1st week of classes you will get in off the waiting lists for whatever class you want.

[sarryn]

I just received my acceptance letter in the mail. Spent two hours running around town getting the money orders together ($1200!), when I should have been studying.

[Regionality]

I just received my acceptance letter in the mail. Spent two hours running around town getting the money orders together ($1200!), when I should have been studying.

haha do you live in Zimbabwe? Whatever happened to checks and credit cards?

[sarryn]

They only accept check or money order, and I didn't have any checks handy.

[starchinkilt]

Anyone get confirmation gulc received the deposit?

Edit: Never mind, just got e-mail confirmation