Berkeley to S/Y/H? Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

okay, STOP, people. Name-calling has lost any even pretense of being an argument.

[thricelawyer9]

Why would you want to transfer.

Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.

Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.

People think lawyers are geniuses? Since when? I have met tons of dumb Harvard grads (I haven't known any S grads tbh) and I guess the Yalies (the law grads anyway) have been impressive, but i'm much more impressed with an engineer who went to Berkeley undergrad than an HYS liberal arts major or law grad....most are too dumb at math to function. Same with most medical doctors honestly. If you think HYS law grads are "geniuses" then you must be a retard yourself.

Can we just ban any douches with the word "biglaw" in their name? Eat worms, bitch.

(MAF retard who thinks YHS law grads are "geniuses")

Jesus christ, you liberal arts majors should just shoot yourselves

EE major. Pretty sure you have to be pretty damn smart to get in to HYS. Did you go there?

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

EE major. Pretty sure you have to be pretty damn smart to get in to HYS. Did you go there?

I went to a non-HYS T-14, graduated something like top 25%, while doing pretty much no work. Law school itself was a joke. Engineers at my undergrad worked about a billion times harder than law students.

[thricelawyer9]

okay, STOP, people. Name-calling has lost any even pretense of being an argument.

Yeah whysoseriousbiglaw, listen to A. Nony Mouse and don't call me a retard. It hurts my feelings. Seriously.

[thricelawyer9]

EE major. Pretty sure you have to be pretty damn smart to get in to HYS. Did you go there?

I went to a non-HYS T-14, graduated something like top 25%, while doing pretty much no work. Law school itself was a joke. Engineers at my undergrad worked about a billion times harder than law students.

Doing no work sounds like a great law school strategy.

[whysoseriousbiglaw]

EE major. Pretty sure you have to be pretty damn smart to get in to HYS. Did you go there?

I went to a non-HYS T-14, graduated something like top 25%, while doing pretty much no work. Law school itself was a joke. Engineers at my undergrad worked about a billion times harder than law students.

Doing no work sounds like a great law school strategy.

It's the only good thing to come out of law school - it was a 3 year vacation. After that, everything goes far, far downhill.

So yeah, I wouldn't do law school again, and I definitely don't think HYS law students are geniuses by any means.

[A. Nony Mouse]

okay, STOP, people. Name-calling has lost any even pretense of being an argument.

Yeah whysoseriousbiglaw, listen to A. Nony Mouse and don't call me a retard. It hurts my feelings. Seriously.

Yeah, I was mostly talking to you.

[thricelawyer9]

okay, STOP, people. Name-calling has lost any even pretense of being an argument.

Yeah whysoseriousbiglaw, listen to A. Nony Mouse and don't call me a retard. It hurts my feelings. Seriously.

Yeah, I was mostly talking to you.

Why? I just called him a female dog. He called me a retard. Not cool.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Stop or be banned.

[thricelawyer9]

Stop or be banned.

Don't do it. Please.















Bitch.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Goodbye.

(At this point you might realized I've banned your alts, too.)

[SLS_AMG]

I am not an expert at the Berkeley grading scheme, but I suspect that you do not need to repeat your performance, especially not for Harvard. You will likely be fine with an H or two. For what it's worth, if you don't end up paying that much more money at a HYS, I say go for it. Your job prospects aren't really going to improve very much. But neither will they be hurt. And you'll be able to coast along on a P/H system that's much easier than breaking your back for HHs for the next two years.

I knew a Berkeley transfer to an HYS who ended up snagging offers from most of the top firms no problem, and they had the added advantage of those firms (WLRK, W&C, etc.) actually showing up to OCI at HYS, whereas they would have had to mail at Berkeley.

WLRK interviews at Berkeley and W&C lawyers are in the Bay Area during Stanford's OCI and will meet with Berkeley students in person for interviews. HTH.

[rpupkin]

You think that at Stanford where 30.5% of students get federal clerkships, OP is really going to have a hard time landing a clerkship if that's what they want? One word: doubtful.

I think it's clear at this point that thricelawyer is a troll and/or not terribly bright, but I want to clarify something just in case prospective transfers are reading this thread and thinking about their options: the point is not that top-of-the-class T14 1Ls cannot land AIII clerkships if they transfer to HYS. Of course they can. The point is that the most coveted clerkships—the clerkships for the so-called "feeder" judges—will be easier to get if the top-of-the-class students stay at their 1L schools.

If OP repeats first semester performance—straight HHs—then he or she will almost certainly be better off at Boalt than HYS.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I probably should have offered a bit more context, so I'll shoulder some responsibility for the unfortunate direction this thread took. To be clear, I'm far from dead-set on transferring.

But since a repeat performance is hardly guaranteed, I'm trying to get a sense for all my options. To that end, I was hoping to pinpoint - to the extent possible - the lower bound for transfer opportunities. Were I to find myself once again at the very top of the class, I realize - as many here have suggested - that my best bet likely would be to stick things out at Boalt.

From what I've heard, the "auto admit" threshold for Harvard is something like Top 10%. And Top 15% should be competitive. But my sense of Stanford is not so clear. I assume it's more competitive, but perhaps that assumption is unfounded. Either way, it's tough to figure from the available data, since Boalt's grading system doesn't lend itself well to ABA Forms.

To the extent any of these considerations matter, I receive no scholarship or financial aid at Boalt. And I don't particularly care for my classmates or the environment here, in any event. I'd like to clerk for the experience, but I feel no abiding need to gun for a feeder clerkship -- especially since I'm likely to go transactional. That said, I am interested in upgrading my network.

Bearing all that in mind, if anyone else would like to chime in with speculation - informed or otherwise - about the likely threshold for Stanford, Harvard, or Yale, then I'd be all ears. Thanks again.

[rpupkin]

From what I've heard, the "auto admit" threshold for Harvard is something like Top 10%. And Top 15% should be competitive. But my sense of Stanford is not so clear. I assume it's more competitive, but perhaps that assumption is unfounded.

I doubt that SLS's transfer-grade threshold is higher than HLS's. But SLS accepts far fewer transfers, so admissions will be more idiosyncratic and holistic.

I apologize if this sounds snippy, but is there any reason why you wouldn't simply apply to all three? What are you trying to find out right now that would impact your decision one way or the other? No matter what, you're going to have very good grades; if you really want to transfer to at least one of HYS, then you may as well apply to all of them.

[Anonymous User]

No apology necessary -- it doesn't sound snippy at all. Assuming my grades are plausible, I plan to apply to all three. It's just a world I don't know so well, and I'd like to have as much information as possible before crunch time.

[jphiggo]

Do you have a professor that you've connected with that you can approach to ask advice from (and also prime for a LOR)? I was lucky enough to foster a great relationship with a professor at my original school that helped me weigh the pros and cons of transferring. It helped me considerably, as I had many options on the east coast to choose from. Ultimately, geographical preference for where I wanted to end up after school is what swayed me to Boalt over more "prestigious" places elsewhere. I think the real answer to your question will be found once you figure out what you really want to do moving forward. Also, as everyone pointed out previously, if you repeat your performance this semester I would strongly suggest staying put.

[orangered]

Please (1) Name the firm that would not hire a top-of-the-class Berkeley student if the student transferred to HYS.

I doubt such a firm exits.

Anecdotally I've heard of a Bay Area firm not extending an offer to a Boalt->H/Y transfer (who clearly had the grades for the job) because the firm was concerned that the student (who wasn't originally from California) was a flight risk.

[Nekrowizard]

I am not an expert at the Berkeley grading scheme, but I suspect that you do not need to repeat your performance, especially not for Harvard. You will likely be fine with an H or two. For what it's worth, if you don't end up paying that much more money at a HYS, I say go for it. Your job prospects aren't really going to improve very much. But neither will they be hurt. And you'll be able to coast along on a P/H system that's much easier than breaking your back for HHs for the next two years.

I knew a Berkeley transfer to an HYS who ended up snagging offers from most of the top firms no problem, and they had the added advantage of those firms (WLRK, W&C, etc.) actually showing up to OCI at HYS, whereas they would have had to mail at Berkeley.

WLRK interviews at Berkeley and W&C lawyers are in the Bay Area during Stanford's OCI and will meet with Berkeley students in person for interviews. HTH.

Ah, sorry. I am only repeating what I heard from a dude. Shoulda checked! I still stand behind my "transfer if you feel like it and don't care about the most prestigious clerkships" stance, especially when OP's paying sticker.

OP, about the grade threshold at SLS: I agree that they are more holistic. Anecdotally, they can be less grade-selective than HLS , from at least one instance I know of. I can tell you a bit more if you PM me.

[Nebby]

Goodbye.

(At this point you might realized I've banned your alts, too.)

Please tell me it was a perma

[plurilingue]

Twenty comments later and nobody has actually responded to OP.

You can get an H or two and still be in range, but I would advise against it. I think three H is pushing it, though, since H grades are viewed more as B+ than A- on a traditional curve. AmJur helps a bit too since they are A+ grades.

You're clearly at the tippy top of the class at Boalt and these transfers have been done with these grades before. Often there are HYPS undergrads who end up at YHS transferring out of Boalt with these grades. And you will not see degraded opportunities at all with these grades to be clear. At least one such transfer I know ended up at one of the most selective firms in the country doing exactly this. My view is if you were at HLS or YLS you would be viewed as a top 10-15% student.

Please name the firm that (1) would not hire a top-of-the-class Berkeley student, but (2) would hire that same student if he transferred to HYS.

This thread is rife with pro-HYS trolling.

I never said that such a person wouldn't get hired out of Boalt. On the contrary, I think that such a thing is very likely to happen. However, a number of people have suggested (as the post immediately below yours recalls) that this person would lose opportunities by transferring.

I honestly think that there is no harm to transferring here. Top of the class at Boalt is still a notch below top of the class at HYS due to the obvious lesser concentration of very top talent; as such, I don't think that this person would be considered within the top 10% of HYS. But top 10-20%? That seems very fair to me, and W&C/WLRK would seriously consider that resume. If this person continues performing at this level at HYS, it's conceivable s/he could develop a top 10% HYS resume and the kinds of connections that could carry him/her to SCOTUS or legal academia. (This latter reason is, by the way, the reason s/he should be highlighting in his/her transfer admissions essays. Adcoms love this.)

A lot of people apply out of the lower T14 to HYS/CCN. If there is something a HYS resume or better geography might be able to provide, I encourage him/her to go through with it.

[plurilingue]

OP here. I probably should have offered a bit more context, so I'll shoulder some responsibility for the unfortunate direction this thread took. To be clear, I'm far from dead-set on transferring.

But since a repeat performance is hardly guaranteed, I'm trying to get a sense for all my options. To that end, I was hoping to pinpoint - to the extent possible - the lower bound for transfer opportunities. Were I to find myself once again at the very top of the class, I realize - as many here have suggested - that my best bet likely would be to stick things out at Boalt.

From what I've heard, the "auto admit" threshold for Harvard is something like Top 10%. And Top 15% should be competitive. But my sense of Stanford is not so clear. I assume it's more competitive, but perhaps that assumption is unfounded. Either way, it's tough to figure from the available data, since Boalt's grading system doesn't lend itself well to ABA Forms.

To the extent any of these considerations matter, I receive no scholarship or financial aid at Boalt. And I don't particularly care for my classmates or the environment here, in any event. I'd like to clerk for the experience, but I feel no abiding need to gun for a feeder clerkship -- especially since I'm likely to go transactional. That said, I am interested in upgrading my network.

Bearing all that in mind, if anyone else would like to chime in with speculation - informed or otherwise - about the likely threshold for Stanford, Harvard, or Yale, then I'd be all ears. Thanks again.

(bolding mine)

I can tell you that this is flat-out wrong. Top 10% is nowhere near sufficient for admission to HLS. That threshold is much closer to top 3-5%. Top 5-10% has a good shot, but is nowhere near secure.

From Berkeley, it is arguably harder since its grading is less precise than MVP (and H grades are not interpreted in your favour as A- grades). Worse, there are plenty of CCN kids who are in the top 10% who apply to HLS every year as well; even some of these don't make it. For better or for worse, CCN is unquestionably viewed as a clear step above MVPB, especially due to the markedly higher LSAT bands and previous WLed candidates who matriculated at these schools.

PM me if you want more information; I am happy to discuss in great detail if you would like.

[rpupkin]

I honestly think that there is no harm to transferring here. Top of the class at Boalt is still a notch below top of the class at HYS due to the obvious lesser concentration of very top talent; as such, I don't think that this person would be considered within the top 10% of HYS. But top 10-20%? That seems very fair to me, and W&C/WLRK would seriously consider that resume. If this person continues performing at this level at HYS, it's conceivable s/he could develop a top 10% HYS resume and the kinds of connections that could carry him/her to SCOTUS or legal academia. (This latter reason is, by the way, the reason s/he should be highlighting in his/her transfer admissions essays. Adcoms love this.)

First, I agree that there is no harm to transferring with regard to law firms. But what about clerkships, which is what most of us are talking about? If a student is interested in "SCOTUS or legal academia," a feeder clerkship would do more for a Virginia/Berkeley/Michigan student than would transferring to HYS. And I have yet to hear anyone explain how transferring to HYS would help land a clerkship with a feeder. On the contrary, it would almost certainly hurt the applicant's chances.

[jbagelboy]

I honestly think that there is no harm to transferring here. Top of the class at Boalt is still a notch below top of the class at HYS due to the obvious lesser concentration of very top talent; as such, I don't think that this person would be considered within the top 10% of HYS. But top 10-20%? That seems very fair to me, and W&C/WLRK would seriously consider that resume. If this person continues performing at this level at HYS, it's conceivable s/he could develop a top 10% HYS resume and the kinds of connections that could carry him/her to SCOTUS or legal academia. (This latter reason is, by the way, the reason s/he should be highlighting in his/her transfer admissions essays. Adcoms love this.)

First, I agree that there is no harm to transferring with regard to law firms. But what about clerkships, which is what most of us are talking about? If a student is interested in "SCOTUS or legal academia," a feeder clerkship would do more for a Virginia/Berkeley/Michigan student than would transferring to HYS. And I have yet to hear anyone explain how transferring to HYS would help land a clerkship with a feeder. On the contrary, it would almost certainly hurt the applicant's chances.

here's one of the many instances the TLS lumping of three very different schools together as "H Y S" acronym fails descriptively... to me, transfering to Yale would almost always be at least neutral if not the best move for entering legal academia, whereas it might be a detriment elsewhere.

That's part of the reason "transfering to 'H' 'Y' 'S'" is not a coherent statement.. Its way harder to transfer to Y.

[plurilingue]

I honestly think that there is no harm to transferring here. Top of the class at Boalt is still a notch below top of the class at HYS due to the obvious lesser concentration of very top talent; as such, I don't think that this person would be considered within the top 10% of HYS. But top 10-20%? That seems very fair to me, and W&C/WLRK would seriously consider that resume. If this person continues performing at this level at HYS, it's conceivable s/he could develop a top 10% HYS resume and the kinds of connections that could carry him/her to SCOTUS or legal academia. (This latter reason is, by the way, the reason s/he should be highlighting in his/her transfer admissions essays. Adcoms love this.)

First, I agree that there is no harm to transferring with regard to law firms. But what about clerkships, which is what most of us are talking about? If a student is interested in "SCOTUS or legal academia," a feeder clerkship would do more for a Virginia/Berkeley/Michigan student than would transferring to HYS. And I have yet to hear anyone explain how transferring to HYS would help land a clerkship with a feeder. On the contrary, it would almost certainly hurt the applicant's chances.

I agree with your statement to the extent that it is quite difficult -- although far from impossible -- to replicate the kind of faculty connections needed to get an extremely high prestige judicial clerkship (feeder/CADC/SCOTUS; a tier above normal CA9/CA2). But those connections are, quite frankly, available in greater abundance at HLS and YLS. As such, I'm not convinced that someone who is dead set on gunning through the rest of law school would necessarily hurt their chances at these schools -- especially YLS -- given their edge in placement into both of these.

Beyond connections, it is clear that high grades matter more at HLS/YLS/SLS. If you look back to the SCOTUS clerk AMA thread -- a decent proxy for these outcomes -- the OP's view is that a competitive HLS applicant has all H's, with an equal number of DS and P's; a competitive Boalt applicant has all HH's. Essentially, you need to be in the top 10% throughout Boalt, in every class, to be competitive for a SCOTUS clerkship. To go back to my point above, one would need to gun for top grades at Boalt anyway for these kinds of positions, so why not do so at HLS, especially when the grade requirements are relaxed to the top 37% of every class? That is a massive gap in rank, and I think really bears out the perception that there is an entire tier of candidates -- academics and potential SCOTUS clerks -- that exist in large numbers at the very top schools but few and far in between at the rest of the T14.