Re-Rankings at your law school - normal? Forum

[09042014]

1) Firms already have to keep track of who ranks period. I doubt firms care anyway.

Wasn't my point, if they are expected to keep track of who reranks then why do it. The only way it could be in your advantage as a school is if someone is fooled.

In other words, you can not simultaneously claim that this helps their students get jobs and that students of other schools who don't rerank aren't harmed.

I don't think firms will care that they reranked by removing transfers. It's not fooling them.

[IAFG]

That's fine, that's why I presented it as an either or, my initial argument was that yes, it does something, and that's why it harms students at other schools who don't rerank.

I guess? I don't really want my school making sure we're not hurting competing schools.

[beastienoise]

That's fine, that's why I presented it as an either or, my initial argument was that yes, it does something, and that's why it harms students at other schools who don't rerank.

I guess? I don't really want my school making sure we're not hurting competing schools.

I don't care either way. I was just arguing with Desert Fox over a point he made earlier. I'm also sure that students at competing schools probably do care.

[beastienoise]

1) Firms already have to keep track of who ranks period. I doubt firms care anyway.

Wasn't my point, if they are expected to keep track of who reranks then why do it. The only way it could be in your advantage as a school is if someone is fooled.

In other words, you can not simultaneously claim that this helps their students get jobs and that students of other schools who don't rerank aren't harmed.

I don't think firms will care that they reranked by removing transfers. It's not fooling them.

Then stop claiming that its helping anyone. You and IAFG are just taking the opposite sides of the either/or, the point is that you have to concede one of the two being true.

[TrialLawyer16]

My argument was that either reranking does nothing to help the students who stay at the school, or it actively harms students at other schools who don't rerank.

Lets say there are 2 peer schools, one who reranks and one who doesn't. I would feel shitty if I were the #1 at the school who didn't rerank and got passed up for a job by the #14 turned #1 at the other school that did rerank. Desert Fox made the argument that firms aren't stupid and will just keep track of who reranks and who doesn't. My point in response was that reranking would then do nothing for your students since the whole point is to give employers an inflated sense of your students' ranks. So either a) reranking doesn't help get your students jobs or b) reranking helps your students get jobs at the expense of students at other schools who don't rerank.

If it did nothing, schools wouldn't grade inflate, but they do.

That's fine, that's why I presented it as an either or, my initial argument was that yes, it does something, and that's why it harms students at other schools who don't rerank.

The bolded is definitely a good point. I guess we'll see how TLS/students at other schools react when they realize this can actually harm them as well

[09042014]

1) Firms already have to keep track of who ranks period. I doubt firms care anyway.

Wasn't my point, if they are expected to keep track of who reranks then why do it. The only way it could be in your advantage as a school is if someone is fooled.

In other words, you can not simultaneously claim that this helps their students get jobs and that students of other schools who don't rerank aren't harmed.

I don't think firms will care that they reranked by removing transfers. It's not fooling them.

Then stop claiming that its helping anyone. You and IAFG are just taking the opposite sides of the either/or, the point is that you have to concede one of the two being true.

Just because the firms won't care the school weeds out Xfers, doesn't mean having all your students get a higher rank doesn't help. There is a psychological effect of the higher rank. And firms just won't care that it changes a bit because some students xfer.

[beastienoise]

Then stop claiming that its helping anyone. You and IAFG are just taking the opposite sides of the either/or, the point is that you have to concede one of the two being true.

Just because the firms won't care the school weeds out Xfers, doesn't mean having all your students get a higher rank doesn't help. There is a psychological effect of the higher rank. And firms just won't care that it changes a bit because some students xfer.

I'm done arguing.

[IAFG]

Then stop claiming that its helping anyone. You and IAFG are just taking the opposite sides of the either/or, the point is that you have to concede one of the two being true.

Just because the firms won't care the school weeds out Xfers, doesn't mean having all your students get a higher rank doesn't help. There is a psychological effect of the higher rank. And firms just won't care that it changes a bit because some students xfer.

I'm done arguing.

wat? that's exactly the point of grade inflation. even though everyone knows it exists, it still looks better. also, vanity sizing. consumers respond even though they know it's bullshit.

[09042014]

Then stop claiming that its helping anyone. You and IAFG are just taking the opposite sides of the either/or, the point is that you have to concede one of the two being true.

Just because the firms won't care the school weeds out Xfers, doesn't mean having all your students get a higher rank doesn't help. There is a psychological effect of the higher rank. And firms just won't care that it changes a bit because some students xfer.

I'm done arguing.

(Guy who thinks a firm is going to sit there and adjust their impression of top 10% based on the fact that 3% of that class transferred out.)

You aren't done arguing, you are done here.

[TrialLawyer16]

Then stop claiming that its helping anyone. You and IAFG are just taking the opposite sides of the either/or, the point is that you have to concede one of the two being true.

Just because the firms won't care the school weeds out Xfers, doesn't mean having all your students get a higher rank doesn't help. There is a psychological effect of the higher rank. And firms just won't care that it changes a bit because some students xfer.

Not sure you're getting what he's trying to say. He's saying, for example:

#1 student at W&L (example) transfers to NU
You're Top 25% at NU
Former #12 at W&L becomes #1 (completely hypo, of course, but possible)
BigLaw A has two spots left. The NU transfer uses his #1 standing at W&L to snag BigLaw A, and the former #12 at W&L uses his new standing as #1 to snag the same job that would have actually gone to you if he was still ranked #12, leaving you (Top 25% at NU) holding the bag. Is that fair?

Again completely hypo and possibly not extremely likely, but this is what beastlenoise is trying to say and it seems possible. And if firms actually do factor in rank in their hiring decisions, I think it's a fair point.

[beastienoise]

Sorry, not done arguing. Both of your are still missing the point. You can't have it both ways. Either, it helps your students with employment or it doesn't. If it helps your students with employment than it hurts similarly situated students at schools that don't rerank. It's that simple.

I'm not the one who said a firm would adjust their impression, that would actually be IAFG who said that it helps just like grade inflation helps. IAFG is the one that said that even if firms know that a school reranks that they are like consumers who respond even if they know it is bullshit. My argument was that if firms don't adjust their impression then what the hell does reranking do?

[beepboopbeep]

(Guy who thinks a firm is going to sit there and adjust their impression of top 10% based on the fact that 3% of that class transferred out.)

You aren't done arguing, you are done here.

You're engaging with someone who posed a hypothetical in which 50% of the class transferred out.

I'd be interested in hearing from OP or one of his classmates on how many people in the top 30 requested Dean's Certs, though. Sounds like it would be relatively easy to figure out from the email.

If it helps your students with employment than it hurts similarly situated students at schools that don't rerank.

Who cares? Law schools are in competition with each other.

[beastienoise]

(Guy who thinks a firm is going to sit there and adjust their impression of top 10% based on the fact that 3% of that class transferred out.)

You aren't done arguing, you are done here.

You're engaging with someone who posed a hypothetical in which 50% of the class transferred out.

I'd be interested in hearing from OP or one of his classmates on how many people in the top 30 requested Dean's Certs, though. Sounds like it would be relatively easy to figure out from the email.

If it helps your students with employment than it hurts similarly situated students at schools that don't rerank.

Who cares? Law schools are in competition with each other.

14

[09042014]

Then stop claiming that its helping anyone. You and IAFG are just taking the opposite sides of the either/or, the point is that you have to concede one of the two being true.

Just because the firms won't care the school weeds out Xfers, doesn't mean having all your students get a higher rank doesn't help. There is a psychological effect of the higher rank. And firms just won't care that it changes a bit because some students xfer.

Not sure you're getting what he's trying to say. He's saying, for example:

#1 student at W&L (example) transfers to NU
You're Top 25% at NU
Former #12 at W&L becomes #1 (completely hypo, of course, but possible)
BigLaw A has two spots left. The NU transfer uses his #1 standing at W&L to snag BigLaw A, and the former #12 at W&L uses his new standing as #1 to snag the same job that would have actually gone to you if he was still ranked #12, leaving you (Top 25% at NU) holding the bag. Is that fair?

Again completely hypo and possibly not extremely likely, but this is what beastlenoise is trying to say and it seems possible. And if firms actually do factor in rank in their hiring decisions, I think it's a fair point.

The major problem here is that you are expecting the W&L to try to be fair towards other schools students. They can (and probably have a duty) to help their students out. You are basically arguing that anything another schools does to help their students get jobs is unfair to everyone else. I don't buy it. Your reason is exactly WHY W&L should be doing this.

Nobody is bitching that NU top 25% is probably a 3.6, where at other schools 3.6 is way higher. Our schools already assfucking the rest of you by not ranking and grade inflating.

Hell after graduation a 3.6 is BELOW median at NU. Lol

[beastienoise]

Then stop claiming that its helping anyone. You and IAFG are just taking the opposite sides of the either/or, the point is that you have to concede one of the two being true.

Just because the firms won't care the school weeds out Xfers, doesn't mean having all your students get a higher rank doesn't help. There is a psychological effect of the higher rank. And firms just won't care that it changes a bit because some students xfer.

Not sure you're getting what he's trying to say. He's saying, for example:

#1 student at W&L (example) transfers to NU
You're Top 25% at NU
Former #12 at W&L becomes #1 (completely hypo, of course, but possible)
BigLaw A has two spots left. The NU transfer uses his #1 standing at W&L to snag BigLaw A, and the former #12 at W&L uses his new standing as #1 to snag the same job that would have actually gone to you if he was still ranked #12, leaving you (Top 25% at NU) holding the bag. Is that fair?

Again completely hypo and possibly not extremely likely, but this is what beastlenoise is trying to say and it seems possible. And if firms actually do factor in rank in their hiring decisions, I think it's a fair point.

The major problem here is that you are expecting the W&L to try to be fair towards other schools students. They can (and probably have a duty) to help their students out. You are basically arguing that anything another schools does to help their students get jobs is unfair to everyone else. I don't buy it. Your reason is exactly WHY W&L should be doing this.

Nobody is bitching that NU top 25% is probably a 3.6, where at other schools 3.6 is way higher. Our schools already assfucking the rest of you by not ranking and grade inflating.

Hell after graduation a 3.6 is BELOW median at NU. Lol

So it's ok for a school to report 10% of its students as being in the top 5%, 20% in the top 10%, etc. If your only obligation is to your students why does it matter if you distort the numbers (which is what you're doing here...)

[TrialLawyer16]

Then stop claiming that its helping anyone. You and IAFG are just taking the opposite sides of the either/or, the point is that you have to concede one of the two being true.

Just because the firms won't care the school weeds out Xfers, doesn't mean having all your students get a higher rank doesn't help. There is a psychological effect of the higher rank. And firms just won't care that it changes a bit because some students xfer.

Not sure you're getting what he's trying to say. He's saying, for example:

#1 student at W&L (example) transfers to NU
You're Top 25% at NU
Former #12 at W&L becomes #1 (completely hypo, of course, but possible)
BigLaw A has two spots left. The NU transfer uses his #1 standing at W&L to snag BigLaw A, and the former #12 at W&L uses his new standing as #1 to snag the same job that would have actually gone to you if he was still ranked #12, leaving you (Top 25% at NU) holding the bag. Is that fair?

Again completely hypo and possibly not extremely likely, but this is what beastlenoise is trying to say and it seems possible. And if firms actually do factor in rank in their hiring decisions, I think it's a fair point.

The major problem here is that you are expecting the W&L to try to be fair towards other schools students. They can (and probably have a duty) to help their students out. You are basically arguing that anything another schools does to help their students get jobs is unfair to everyone else. I don't buy it. Your reason is exactly WHY W&L should be doing this.

Nobody is bitching that NU top 25% is probably a 3.6, where at other schools 3.6 is way higher. Our schools already assfucking the rest of you by not ranking and grade inflating.

Hell after graduation a 3.6 is BELOW median at NU. Lol

No, I don't expect W&L to try to be fair towards other schools' students. I'm just speaking to what's fair to students in general, and really whether this practice should even be allowed. I bet if you found out you were that student at NU and somehow you found out the only reason you lost that job at your dream firm, even if you got another one, is because you had to compete against two #1's at a certain school instead of a #1 and #12,you'd feel differently way about this issue. No doubt, the school doing this is helping their current (2L) students out, but that's not the point to me.

You are basically arguing that anything another schools does to help their students get jobs is unfair to everyone else.

I'm pretty sure you know this is a straw man.


And the issue of a 3.6 at NU shouldn't even matter, either. The real question is whether firms actually value class rank more, which I'm imagining (but don't know for sure) they do since schools have different grading tendencies.

Side note: I don't go to W&L.. your school is not "assfukking" mine lol. NU's a great school and all, but let's pump the brakes

[09042014]

Just because the firms won't care the school weeds out Xfers, doesn't mean having all your students get a higher rank doesn't help. There is a psychological effect of the higher rank. And firms just won't care that it changes a bit because some students xfer.

Not sure you're getting what he's trying to say. He's saying, for example:

#1 student at W&L (example) transfers to NU
You're Top 25% at NU
Former #12 at W&L becomes #1 (completely hypo, of course, but possible)
BigLaw A has two spots left. The NU transfer uses his #1 standing at W&L to snag BigLaw A, and the former #12 at W&L uses his new standing as #1 to snag the same job that would have actually gone to you if he was still ranked #12, leaving you (Top 25% at NU) holding the bag. Is that fair?

Again completely hypo and possibly not extremely likely, but this is what beastlenoise is trying to say and it seems possible. And if firms actually do factor in rank in their hiring decisions, I think it's a fair point.

The major problem here is that you are expecting the W&L to try to be fair towards other schools students. They can (and probably have a duty) to help their students out. You are basically arguing that anything another schools does to help their students get jobs is unfair to everyone else. I don't buy it. Your reason is exactly WHY W&L should be doing this.

Nobody is bitching that NU top 25% is probably a 3.6, where at other schools 3.6 is way higher. Our schools already assfucking the rest of you by not ranking and grade inflating.

Hell after graduation a 3.6 is BELOW median at NU. Lol

No, I don't expect W&L to try to be fair towards other schools' students. I'm just speaking to what's fair to students in general, and really whether this practice should even be allowed. I bet if you found out you were that student at NU and somehow you found out the only reason you lost that job at your dream firm, even if you got another one, is because you had to compete against two #1's at a certain school instead of a #1 and #12,you'd feel differently way about this issue. No doubt, the school doing this is helping their current (2L) students out, but that's not the point to me.

You are basically arguing that anything another schools does to help their students get jobs is unfair to everyone else.

I'm pretty sure you know this is a straw man.


And the issue of a 3.6 at NU shouldn't even matter, either. The real question is whether firms actually value class rank more, which I'm imagining (but don't know for sure) they do since schools have different grading scales.

Side note: I don't go to W&L.. your school is not "assfukking" mine lol. NU's a great school and all, but let's pump the brakes

I mean assfucking, as in almost cheating. My point is firms don't even know what 25% is at Northwestern because it's intentionally obscured.

[TrialLawyer16]

(Guy who thinks a firm is going to sit there and adjust their impression of top 10% based on the fact that 3% of that class transferred out.)

You aren't done arguing, you are done here.

You're engaging with someone who posed a hypothetical in which 50% of the class transferred out.

I'd be interested in hearing from OP or one of his classmates on how many people in the top 30 requested Dean's Certs, though. Sounds like it would be relatively easy to figure out from the email.

If it helps your students with employment than it hurts similarly situated students at schools that don't rerank.

Who cares? Law schools are in competition with each other.

14

Yeah this seems enough to cause an issue for sure. Let's say that number was 15:

Top 30 out of a class of 150 = Top 20%
Top 15 out of a class of 150 = Top 10%

Especially at a school in the T25, that jump can make all the difference. And that student could end up taking a job that a student at another school would have gotten. And they got this big jump simply because a certain amount of their classmates decided to request a Dean's Cert (not even actually leave)? Great for the school that adjusted the GPA, but not fair in general and I don't think it should be allowed.

[09042014]

(Guy who thinks a firm is going to sit there and adjust their impression of top 10% based on the fact that 3% of that class transferred out.)

You aren't done arguing, you are done here.

You're engaging with someone who posed a hypothetical in which 50% of the class transferred out.

I'd be interested in hearing from OP or one of his classmates on how many people in the top 30 requested Dean's Certs, though. Sounds like it would be relatively easy to figure out from the email.

If it helps your students with employment than it hurts similarly situated students at schools that don't rerank.

Who cares? Law schools are in competition with each other.

14

Yeah this seems enough to cause an issue for sure. Let's say that number was 15:

Top 30 out of a class of 150 = Top 20%
Top 15 out of a class of 150 = Top 10%

Especially at a school in the T25, that jump can make all the difference. And that student could end up taking a job that a student at another school would have gotten. And they got this big jump simply because a certain amount of their classmates decided to request a Dean's Cert (not even actually leave)? Great for the school that adjusted the GPA, but not fair in general and I don't think it should be allowed.

So a school should just not have a top 10% if they all leave? Stupid plan.

[TrialLawyer16]

I mean assfucking, as in almost cheating. My point is firms don't even know what 25% is at Northwestern because it's intentionally obscured.

I'm kinda sidetracking here a little, but how do firms differentiate students there for OCI? If they have a bunch of GPAs and can do their own calculations then that's not really changing anything. It could help somewhat, but it's seems like moreso just delaying the inevitable.

[Randomnumbers]

And for all the ridiculous hypos being thrown around, the percentiles moved either .02 or .03. There was minor adjustments - the main difference is a few extra students will be able to put top 10% or top 15% on their resumes when before they were just outside of it. This might help a few students get jobs with firms that have cutoffs - specifically, those students who stay at the school. It won't harm transfer students in any way, it won't harm those who asked for certifications and didn't leave (unless they honestly think that a classmate listing a slightly different percentile for the top 15% cutoff will actually effect anything). Sure, if you are #2 or 4 in class and now someone else is also #2 or 4 in the class, or even *gasp* listed one position higher on their resume (Even though employers can still see that you have a better GPA than that person).

This fuss brought to you by the same class who have people that list their class rank and GPA and CALI awards on their linkedin accounts. If it's not harming you in the job or transfer market (spoiler: it's not, it just might slightly help some of your classmates), the only harm is you get to feel like a little bit less superior to your classmates when you brag about your class rank.

(My heart bleeds)

[Randomnumbers]

I mean assfucking, as in almost cheating. My point is firms don't even know what 25% is at Northwestern because it's intentionally obscured.

I'm kinda sidetracking here a little, but how do firms differentiate students there for OCI? If they have a bunch of GPAs and can do their own calculations then that's not really changing anything. It could help somewhat, but it's seems like moreso just delaying the inevitable.

Firms can figure out peoples class rank, even when the school doesn't report such things at all. I think removing a few people (almost all of whom won't be at OCI anyways) from the class rankings that the school reports is hardly going to send these firms into some type of confused tailspin.

[09042014]

I mean assfucking, as in almost cheating. My point is firms don't even know what 25% is at Northwestern because it's intentionally obscured.

I'm kinda sidetracking here a little, but how do firms differentiate students there for OCI? If they have a bunch of GPAs and can do their own calculations then that's not really changing anything. It could help somewhat, but it's seems like moreso just delaying the inevitable.

They just compare GPAs. It changes things because I'm not competing only competing with someone from my school. And even if I was, it's not just based on a grades. They think 3.6, oh that's good. Someone with a 3.65 isn't always going to get the job over. But if the firm thinks 25% is a good cut off, and I'm 3.6 which is really probably 30%, I still meet their standard because they cannot tell.

It's not much of a help at Kirkland Elis Chicago because they see enough GPAs to kind of figure it out. But a firm in Seattle? They might think all the 3.6's they are see are top 10%. Because they don't see that many students.

If I can't really figure out what % people are, firms can't.

[TrialLawyer16]

14

Yeah this seems enough to cause an issue for sure. Let's say that number was 15:

Top 30 out of a class of 150 = Top 20%
Top 15 out of a class of 150 = Top 10%

Especially at a school in the T25, that jump can make all the difference. And that student could end up taking a job that a student at another school would have gotten. And they got this big jump simply because a certain amount of their classmates decided to request a Dean's Cert (not even actually leave)? Great for the school that adjusted the GPA, but not fair in general and I don't think it should be allowed.

So a school should just not have a top 10% if they all leave? Stupid plan.

Sounds a little crazy, but if that actually happened, then it's the fairest thing to do for students [Edited to fix:] at all schools. Otherwise it's fraudulent.

And don't forget, those students don't even actually leave before it's re-calculated. So, if they end up staying and tying with another student that's a fradulent number as well because a) that student actually beat the student he/she's tied with and b) all percentiles are wrong since the wrong class size was used to derive the percentiles

[09042014]

WTF are you all talking about. The school is doing their students a favor and it's only shady to the extent some students might stay.

Transfers feel entitled to the glory they think they earned at the old school. Just look at the threads about putting on their journal offers that they are going to turn down.