what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean? Forum

[A'nold]

Didn't have time to read this whole post, but I think I have some info that might help you. I attended ULV Fall '09 and decided to leave after one semester. I had a 168 LSAT and 3.45 GPA and got a full scholarship there. I was very torn as to whether to go to the school because of my numbers, but it turned out to be the only option that had a night program within driving distance from my job.

When I got to the school I was actually pleasantly surprised by the level of the students and faculty. I was less impressed by the day students than the evening students, but I didn't really get to know very many of the day students. The professors are generally very good. If you have a desire to learn the law you will be able to do it at ULV. My experience with the school administration was terrible, but I won't go into that.

The level of respect that you will get coming out of this school in the area is not horrible, but you will not be in the running for the few mid size law firms that are out here. When they brought in former alumni to talk to us about their careers after law school it was kind of depressing. Even they admitted that a government gig was the best you could hope for and would only be available to the top of the class.

As far as transferring out, some people have done it. I talked to my TA for contracts who finished in the top 5 or so and he expressed regret for not transferring out when he could. He felt that he would never be able to achieve his goal of becoming a law professor even after getting an LLM from a better school. It says something that even ULV won't hire their own grads as professors (there are a few token exceptions) I finished top 3 (out of a whopping 30 people in our evening class) for the first semester and I would likely have quit my job and tried to transfer out had I decided to stay with law school. For anyone else with my situation, you should know that most schools will not give scholarships for transfer students. So, even though I would have gotten at least a partial scholarship at Loyola as a 1L, I would have gotten nothing as a transfer.

As far as accreditation, when I decided to enroll, I was convinced that they would get their ABA accreditation. The incoming classes have gotten progressively better since 2006 and you will find several people in your class who chose the school over schools like Loyola and San Diego because of family or work constraints or because of the scholarships. However, just before the ABA came to visit us our bar passage rate came in at something like 30%. This seemed to send the faculty and administration into panic mode. One of my professors spent an hour explaining to us why it was OK because our average passage rate over the last X years was where it needed to be. He then went on to say that accreditation is pointless anyway because they require things like "poetry and the law" which we won't need because we will be practicing attorneys and not academics. My crim law professor said basically the same thing. She was a visiting scholar at Yale before coming to ULV (even though she made it sound as though she were a tenure track professor there.) She made sure to let us know how noble she was to be slumming it with us because we weren't going to be Senators or Presidents, we were going to be working "in the trenches."

I have just been rambling on here, but my general point is that if you decide to go there, you will not be surrounded by idiots (although there are a few of them), it will not be impossible to transfer out or impossible to get a job after graduation. You must be realistic, though. It will not be as academically engaging as going to UCLA; they treat law school as a vocational school so don't expect to learn about philosophy of law or some such crap. People will always judge you as being "not good enough" to get into a better school when they find out you attended there. If you want to work as an attorney, you either need to be ready to strike out on your own or be toward the top of the class and go for a government position (this is what my goal would have been with a law degree).

Good Luck

What is "ULV" and why did you decide not to apply elsewhere after dropping out? You might be able to just do normal admissions again and finishing top 3 out of 30 would at least prove you know what you are doing if any school asks about your prior enrollment at an unacreditted school.

[ulv_dropout]

ULV = University of La Verne

I am still thinking of applying as a 1L to Loyola, but I am right back in the dilemma I had when I decided to go to ULV. I would have to change my work schedule around and drive over an hour instead of 35 minutes or so. Also, Loyola's classes are 4 nights instead of 3. I am 28, married and have 2 small kids and I already make more money in my day job than I would make for the first 2 or 3 years as an attorney with the county I work for. So, I have a limit on how much sacrifice I want to give for law school. (Seems kind of dumb to put all the work in to break even 6 or 7 years from now.) I will probably do a different grad program that is less intense and gives me promotional opportunities based on where I am now (information technology) and doesn't require me to start over at the bottom of the lawyer payscale (which is $60k -$150k). Although the top of that payscale looks really good for a 40 hour work week, it would be four years of PT law school plus about 10 years working (I'm guessing) to get there.

Oh, and my LSAT is from 2004, La Verne made an exception for my LSAT score, not sure if Loyola would do the same...

I just wanted to give the OP a perspective from someone who went to the school he is considering (if only for 1 semester.) I guess

[jarofsoup]

Aviod unless it is UC Irvine in a year or two.

[Shot007]

I agree UC Irvine is just about the only provisional you want to get into, maybe Drexel also, but the point is provisional is very risky...

[A'nold]

ULV = University of La Verne

I am still thinking of applying as a 1L to Loyola, but I am right back in the dilemma I had when I decided to go to ULV. I would have to change my work schedule around and drive over an hour instead of 35 minutes or so. Also, Loyola's classes are 4 nights instead of 3. I am 28, married and have 2 small kids and I already make more money in my day job than I would make for the first 2 or 3 years as an attorney with the county I work for. So, I have a limit on how much sacrifice I want to give for law school. (Seems kind of dumb to put all the work in to break even 6 or 7 years from now.) I will probably do a different grad program that is less intense and gives me promotional opportunities based on where I am now (information technology) and doesn't require me to start over at the bottom of the lawyer payscale (which is $60k -$150k). Although the top of that payscale looks really good for a 40 hour work week, it would be four years of PT law school plus about 10 years working (I'm guessing) to get there.

Oh, and my LSAT is from 2004, La Verne made an exception for my LSAT score, not sure if Loyola would do the same...

I just wanted to give the OP a perspective from someone who went to the school he is considering (if only for 1 semester.) I guess

Wouldn't it be worth your while to study for the LSAT and get that 175+ it seems you may be capable of......and get a full-ride to a top 14? You really shouldn't have to pay tuition with your LSAT range if you don't want to and it seems like Loyola pt. would be a waste of your numbers. What about UC Irvine?

[ulv_dropout]

Maybe. I didn't take a prep class (but I read some of my roommate's Testmasters materials), so I could probably take one and bump it up a notch, but even a full ride to UCLA would cost me my income for the next three years (about $80k/yr before taxes). I should have gone to law school right out of undergrad, it's tough to leave a decent income once you have people counting on you to put food on the table... but if it was a full ride, I could take out loans and go back to waiting tables at night. I could also wait a few years for when my wife goes back to work, but by then I would be in my mid 30s by the time I got out. For what I want to do Loyola would be more than adequate, heck I was going to La Verne, right?

[voice of reason]

Think about it like this....if someone told you they would give you 120K to score a 160+ on the LSAT....would you take them up on the offer? Thats basically what TTTT's are telling you. For TTT's it probably more like 165+....the point is, it's worth it to study your ass off and give it a shot.

Well put.

I think most people greatly over-estimate the extent to which studying, or retaking the LSAT, will improve their scores. The average retake improves by about 2 points, after all. But the payoff from a higher score is so huge that the probability of improvement can be tiny and still be worth serious effort.

[onthecusp]

Didn't have time to read this whole post, but I think I have some info that might help you. I attended ULV Fall '09 and decided to leave after one semester. I had a 168 LSAT and 3.45 GPA and got a full scholarship there. I was very torn as to whether to go to the school because of my numbers, but it turned out to be the only option that had a night program within driving distance from my job.

When I got to the school I was actually pleasantly surprised by the level of the students and faculty. I was less impressed by the day students than the evening students, but I didn't really get to know very many of the day students. The professors are generally very good. If you have a desire to learn the law you will be able to do it at ULV. My experience with the school administration was terrible, but I won't go into that.

The level of respect that you will get coming out of this school in the area is not horrible, but you will not be in the running for the few mid size law firms that are out here. When they brought in former alumni to talk to us about their careers after law school it was kind of depressing. Even they admitted that a government gig was the best you could hope for and would only be available to the top of the class.

As far as transferring out, some people have done it. I talked to my TA for contracts who finished in the top 5 or so and he expressed regret for not transferring out when he could. He felt that he would never be able to achieve his goal of becoming a law professor even after getting an LLM from a better school. It says something that even ULV won't hire their own grads as professors (there are a few token exceptions) I finished top 3 (out of a whopping 30 people in our evening class) for the first semester and I would likely have quit my job and tried to transfer out had I decided to stay with law school. For anyone else with my situation, you should know that most schools will not give scholarships for transfer students. So, even though I would have gotten at least a partial scholarship at Loyola as a 1L, I would have gotten nothing as a transfer.

As far as accreditation, when I decided to enroll, I was convinced that they would get their ABA accreditation. The incoming classes have gotten progressively better since 2006 and you will find several people in your class who chose the school over schools like Loyola and San Diego because of family or work constraints or because of the scholarships. However, just before the ABA came to visit us our bar passage rate came in at something like 30%. This seemed to send the faculty and administration into panic mode. One of my professors spent an hour explaining to us why it was OK because our average passage rate over the last X years was where it needed to be. He then went on to say that accreditation is pointless anyway because they require things like "poetry and the law" which we won't need because we will be practicing attorneys and not academics. My crim law professor said basically the same thing. She was a visiting scholar at Yale before coming to ULV (even though she made it sound as though she were a tenure track professor there.) She made sure to let us know how noble she was to be slumming it with us because we weren't going to be Senators or Presidents, we were going to be working "in the trenches."

I have just been rambling on here, but my general point is that if you decide to go there, you will not be surrounded by idiots (although there are a few of them), it will not be impossible to transfer out or impossible to get a job after graduation. You must be realistic, though. It will not be as academically engaging as going to UCLA; they treat law school as a vocational school so don't expect to learn about philosophy of law or some such crap. People will always judge you as being "not good enough" to get into a better school when they find out you attended there. If you want to work as an attorney, you either need to be ready to strike out on your own or be toward the top of the class and go for a government position (this is what my goal would have been with a law degree).

Good Luck

I think you successfully talked me out of going to La Verne. I was considering it because of the huge scholly, but it was weird hearing the deans and professors practically apologizing for being ULV. I think I'm headed to Southwestern.....even if it means taking on more debt.

[saintsfan200]

ulv dropout thanks for the info. I'm currently considering a Full-ride at ulv.

Do you have any idea of transfer prospects? Is UCLA/USC/UC Irvine possible if your #1 or 2?

Would you say the day division was generally younger, and choosing ulv for less "constraining" reasons (job, family, location) than the evening students?

[maf70]

0L GTFO. Don't go to a school expecting to transfer. Don't go to this school expecting to pass the bar.

[ulv_dropout]

Just got an email from a PM from saints fan. Totally forgot about this thread. I don't actually know what the transfer success was because I didn't stay around long enough to find out who transferred. I generally agree with the other poster that you should never go to a school planning to transfer out. You can go and hope to transfer out and work hard at it, but you better be prepared to stay there. You should also be willing to pay more in the future if your scholarship is reduced or removed based on your class rank. By the way the terms of scholarship renewal can be negotiated. I got them to change the percentile that I had to be in to retain the scholarship.

If you want to find out more about transfer success, go to the campus and talk to some 3L's. Chances are they know someone who has transferred or tried to transfer unsuccessfully. They can give you the real scoop.

Re: day students

My sense was that most of them had no choice but to go to ULV. Most of them will probably be saddled with student loan debt for the rest of their lives with no hopes of paying it back or even getting relief through bankruptcy.

If you are going to take over your father's law firm and just need a JD, ULV will do that for you. If you are the sort of person who can go out into the world and find clients for yourself etc., then it will work fine (although you might as well become a Realtor or other salesperson in this case.) However, if you expect someone to hire you as a salaried attorney, I would be very very careful going to a low ranked school like ULV.

Good luck.