Transferred T2 to HYS, taking questions Forum

[leppotse]

In fact, when I was applying to transfer, I would have pegged my odds of getting in to any of the T6 as under 5%--I just had no idea about my chances. In retrospect, that was a bad guess--but I mention it only to give you a sense of how I felt about the process as I spoke to professors: I expected that I would be staying.

Thinking back, what would you put your chances at now? For someone trying to transfer as high as possible, would it be a good idea to just blanket the top schools with apps (I would place my chances low at this point as well and I don't want to waste the app fees if I have no shot)?

Anything you would have done differently throughout the transfer process, from applications to preparing for transfer and after transfer, etc.?

Thanks for doing this!

In retrospect, I was a lock to get a T10, and 75%+ in the T6. I got my acceptance from NYU something like 3 days after I went complete. Someone from my T2 got Duke without being top 10% (although I'm sure he just missed it). I think HS are crapshoots (well, Y is too, just with even worse odds), so I don't know how to estimate what my chances really were. Strategically there's no particular reason why you wouldn't just apply to all of the T10, so I would advise you to go for it if you think you're a contender.

As for regrets .. the only thing I can think of is that I would have begun research about the transfer processes for each school earlier. For instance, I found out way too late that Harvard requires transfers to compete in their regular law review writing comp, which is in May or something like that. So from the get-go HLR was out for me, which was too bad. Otherwise, I think things went pretty well for me, so I don't think I would change anything.

[catecureuil]

I'm trying to transfer from a mid-T2 to somewhere in the T14. I have a 4.0 after my first semester, and I know I've got a strong LoR from at least one professor. I want to go into public interest or public service (maybe policy), and I have some solid public interest stuff on my resume but nothing totally outstanding. I'm specifically shooting for NYU, Columbia, Boalt, and, although I know it's a super long shot, YLS. I'll probably apply to other schools, but I'd be super blissed out if I could get into one of the above-listed schools. Would you happen to have any sense of what my chances might be/have any advice to offer? Thanks!

[leppotse]

I'm trying to transfer from a mid-T2 to somewhere in the T14. I have a 4.0 after my first semester, and I know I've got a strong LoR from at least one professor. I want to go into public interest or public service (maybe policy), and I have some solid public interest stuff on my resume but nothing totally outstanding. I'm specifically shooting for NYU, Columbia, Boalt, and, although I know it's a super long shot, YLS. I'll probably apply to other schools, but I'd be super blissed out if I could get into one of the above-listed schools. Would you happen to have any sense of what my chances might be/have any advice to offer? Thanks!

You're almost certainly in the running for NYU and Columbia (probably Boalt as well, although I know less about them--one thing I do know is that when I was applying, Boalt had an earlier deadline for transfer applications than many other schools, so keep that in mind). I can't predict your chances well without knowing your school and without knowing what your second semester grades will be. However, if they stay as strong as they are now, I would expect you to get one of CCN.

Best advice for someone in your position is to keep your head in the game and not to get complacent. Great first semester grades are a strong indicator of great second semester grades, but anything can happen. Many schools pack more credits/analytical classes into the second semester, so conditions may be different for you. Try to identify another professor who can give you a strong recommendation--if you have extra time, consider seeking to be a research assistant for one of your first semester professors to enhance the relationship for when it comes time to ask for a rec.

Good luck!

[leppotse]

(by the way, I'm taking questions again in this thread for the next while if anyone else wants to ask something.)

[leppotse]

Still taking questions (at least, if someone decides to pose some).

[UCLAtransfer]

Did you apply for clerkships, and if so, how did you fare? Any thoughts on how being a transfer affected your prospects?

[leppotse]

Did you apply for clerkships, and if so, how did you fare? Any thoughts on how being a transfer affected your prospects?

Yes. I didn't get any of the judges I wanted, so I guess I would say I fared poorly. Then again, I applied fairly selectively, and I was definitely way pickier than I should have been. If I had been more flexible, I think I would have gotten something pretty good. Oh well! That ship hasn't sailed, at least.

I think that being a transfer can have a serious impact on the clerkship process, so I'm glad you brought this up. The two most important factors in clerkship hiring are 1) grades and 2) recommendations. 1) is not surprising, of course, but 2) has a little bit of nuance that was, at least to me, unexpected. First, transfers in general will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to recommendations. You can always get 1L professors to write for you, of course, but that makes coordinating the clerkship application process considerably more annoying (particularly for applying to judges that don't take online applications). Other students will have made connections with professors during 1L. Second, at least at HYS, certain professors are better than others for recommendations. In particular, some professors are clerkship kingmakers--getting a prestigious CoA clerkship without one of these professors in your corner will be an uphill battle, because judges will often call these professors and say "well, I have a bunch of applications from your school this year--whom should I interview?" Although I didn't know anything about that aspect of the process, it seems like everyone else in my class did.

The other problem for transfers (or at least some transfers, like me) is that undergraduate credentials matter quite a bit to many judges. Unlike pretty much everyone else at my HYS, my undergrad transcript wasn't particularly impressive (nor was the name of my UG particularly exciting). I don't have any basis for the claims in this paragraph except my own experience, though, os take it for what it's worth.

All in all, transferring can be a mixed bag for aspiring clerks. That said, it's probably still better overall for my clerkship applications to have transferred, particularly because I came from a T2.

[risktaker]

tag and thanks for helpful post

[leppotse]

Another boring day, so I'm available to take questions if anyone wants to ask about something that hasn't been covered.

[lawnoob]

Well since you are bored, I am at T2 right now in the 80s, and looking to transfer as high as possible but I don't know how to determine my range.

I am around top 10% but no ranks yet I just know that because of Dean's list i am in top 15% but talking with people it sounds like I am higher.

What is the best way to figure out where you should be applying, I know it was easier for you being as you were as high as you were.

[leppotse]

Well since you are bored, I am at T2 right now in the 80s, and looking to transfer as high as possible but I don't know how to determine my range.

I am around top 10% but no ranks yet I just know that because of Dean's list i am in top 15% but talking with people it sounds like I am higher.

What is the best way to figure out where you should be applying, I know it was easier for you being as you were as high as you were.

What region are you in? And what do you want to get out of your transfer (other than to transfer as high as possible)?

[lawnoob]

Well since you are bored, I am at T2 right now in the 80s, and looking to transfer as high as possible but I don't know how to determine my range.

I am around top 10% but no ranks yet I just know that because of Dean's list i am in top 15% but talking with people it sounds like I am higher.

What is the best way to figure out where you should be applying, I know it was easier for you being as you were as high as you were.

What region are you in? And what do you want to get out of your transfer (other than to transfer as high as possible)?

Northeast, I either want to move geographically to CA or Florida (more CA) or I would like to go to school that going to provide better job prospects and prestige

I am mainly looking at NY and CA but if I felt I could go to a good school in Washington I would do the same

[leppotse]

Well since you are bored, I am at T2 right now in the 80s, and looking to transfer as high as possible but I don't know how to determine my range.

I am around top 10% but no ranks yet I just know that because of Dean's list i am in top 15% but talking with people it sounds like I am higher.

What is the best way to figure out where you should be applying, I know it was easier for you being as you were as high as you were.

What region are you in? And what do you want to get out of your transfer (other than to transfer as high as possible)?

Northeast, I either want to move geographically to CA or Florida (more CA) or I would like to go to school that going to provide better job prospects and prestige

I am mainly looking at NY and CA but if I felt I could go to a good school in Washington I would do the same

All right.

If you manage to stay firmly in the top 10%, you'll have a plausible but not great chance at Berkeley, and that would be your best option. Unfortunately, you'd have a better shot if you were already in CA. If you want Washington, you should have no problem getting into UW, but I don't think that would be worth the transfer (same with UF for Florida).

For what it's worth, a transfer to any school outside of, say, the T12 is probably going to be a bad choice absent other substantial considerations (such as geography). For example, I would strongly advise you against trying to transfer to say, Fordham for NY--at best you'll be evaluated as a roughly median student there, and median at Fordham is not a conversation piece. Moreover, any merit aid you currently have (or might be offered by your current school to retain you) will disappear, never to return.

[lawnoob]

sorry should have been more specific I meant DC not the state of Washington. but thank you for the advice

[Wholigan]

Well since you are bored, I am at T2 right now in the 80s, and looking to transfer as high as possible but I don't know how to determine my range.

I am around top 10% but no ranks yet I just know that because of Dean's list i am in top 15% but talking with people it sounds like I am higher.

What is the best way to figure out where you should be applying, I know it was easier for you being as you were as high as you were.

What region are you in? And what do you want to get out of your transfer (other than to transfer as high as possible)?

Northeast, I either want to move geographically to CA or Florida (more CA) or I would like to go to school that going to provide better job prospects and prestige

I am mainly looking at NY and CA but if I felt I could go to a good school in Washington I would do the same

All right.

If you manage to stay firmly in the top 10%, you'll have a plausible but not great chance at Berkeley, and that would be your best option. Unfortunately, you'd have a better shot if you were already in CA. If you want Washington, you should have no problem getting into UW, but I don't think that would be worth the transfer (same with UF for Florida).

For what it's worth, a transfer to any school outside of, say, the T12 is probably going to be a bad choice absent other substantial considerations (such as geography). For example, I would strongly advise you against trying to transfer to say, Fordham for NY--at best you'll be evaluated as a roughly median student there, and median at Fordham is not a conversation piece. Moreover, any merit aid you currently have (or might be offered by your current school to retain you) will disappear, never to return.

I found it interesting you said T12. I don't want to start another tired debate about T12/T13/T14 but I am at an east coast T2, top 1-2% (no official rankings) so far. I was planning to apply from Cornell on up, excluding the west coast T14s, and maybe the midwestern ones also. I know Cornell has a small class to begin with and takes limited transfers, but is there any specific reason you don't think T2 --> Cornell is a good transfer for East Coast biglaw goals?

[leppotse]

sorry should have been more specific I meant DC not the state of Washington. but thank you for the advice

Oh, for DC you'd have a good shot at GULC. I'm on the fence as to whether that would be worth the transfer, but it's close enough that it would make sense to apply and then cross that bridge when it comes. I'd say you'd want to be top 10% to be in good shape to make a run for GULC, although it's worth applying all the way down to top 15%, if that's where you end up. I don't think it would make sense for you to transfer to GW.

[traehekat]

Don't want to turn this into a "what are my chances?" kind of thread, but since you are bored maybe you can look at my situation and give me a bit of advice.

• I want to practice in Chicago
• I'm currently ~5% at a T30 which places SOME students in larger Chicago firms but by no means a ton
• I'm from the Chicago area, which relevant for two reasons: (1) (obviously) the ties to the region, and (2) I can live at home and save some money
• I have a full scholarship at my current school
• I'm not positive I want to work for a larger firm, and to be sure I'm not at all sure sure what I want to do with my career, but I would like to have as many opportunities as possible (including clerkships, academia, etc.)

If I'm lucky enough to have the opportunity, do you think I should transfer to University of Chicago? Any idea what my chances would be? Should I consider transferring to any other schools? I don't want to work in New York so I kind of ruled out Columbia and NYU, and I don't think I'd have a great shot at Yale or Stanford because of the smaller transfer classes, so the only other school I'm really considering is Harvard.

[keg411]

I found it interesting you said T12. I don't want to start another tired debate about T12/T13/T14 but I am at an east coast T2, top 1-2% (no official rankings) so far. I was planning to apply from Cornell on up, excluding the west coast T14s, and maybe the midwestern ones also. I know Cornell has a small class to begin with and takes limited transfers, but is there any specific reason you don't think T2 --> Cornell is a good transfer for East Coast biglaw goals?

If you steal Cornell from me, I will cut you (j/k). I think Cornell is definitely "worth it" and I will be applying, but I have a close family member who is a recent grad of the law school, so I have pretty major Cornell bias (I also think you're "in" at CNP anyway).

I do appreciate OP's anti-GULC trolling, though. Also, I have no chance at HYS right now and know it, but I'm very very very impressed by OP's getting one of the "holy trinity" out of a T2.

[leppotse]

I found it interesting you said T12. I don't want to start another tired debate about T12/T13/T14 but I am at an east coast T2, top 1-2% (no official rankings) so far. I was planning to apply from Cornell on up, excluding the west coast T14s, and maybe the midwestern ones also. I know Cornell has a small class to begin with and takes limited transfers, but is there any specific reason you don't think T2 --> Cornell is a good transfer for East Coast biglaw goals?

It wasn't my intention to reprise that debate either! Maybe I should have just said T14. The reason I said T12 is that my sense is that top 2% from an east coast T2 will get you NYC biglaw unless you have a terrible personality (and that would probably hold you back at Cornell's OCI as well). So, cost not being equal (because as you probably know transfers never get scholarship money), it seems to me like it makes sense to stay put if Cornell is your only option--your transfer school needs to offer something more than just a good chance at generic biglaw, because you already have that.

That said, at some point within the T14 there is a line past which the enhanced career opportunities do outweigh the costs involved with a transfer. I'm not sure where that line is exactly--but I think Cornell and GULC are probably on the wrong side of it, while the T6 are definitely all on the right side of it. I think there's room for legitimate disagreement here, though.

[lawnerd69]

OP,

Thanks for the awesome thread -- I'm currently wrestling with this same issue myself. My current quandary is almost all financial. I'm #1 in an NJ school (narrowing my identity down to 3 people...) and hopefully I will retain the same rank (or very close) come spring semester grades.

My questions for you, then:

-Given my profile, do you think I have a shot at T6?

-If yes, do you think my job prospects will be so significantly improved by transferring that it will be worth the $100k+ hit? Is HY worth it but not Columbia/NYU?

-Do you ever regret taking on the student loan debt needed to pay sticker at wherever you transfered to?

I don't have any great interest in academia like yourself; right now I'm simply struggling with whether or not the employment boost will be worth the loss of my scholarship.

Thanks!

[leppotse]

Don't want to turn this into a "what are my chances?" kind of thread, but since you are bored maybe you can look at my situation and give me a bit of advice.

• I want to practice in Chicago
• I'm currently ~5% at a T30 which places SOME students in larger Chicago firms but by no means a ton
• I'm from the Chicago area, which relevant for two reasons: (1) (obviously) the ties to the region, and (2) I can live at home and save some money
• I have a full scholarship at my current school
• I'm not positive I want to work for a larger firm, and to be sure I'm not at all sure sure what I want to do with my career, but I would like to have as many opportunities as possible (including clerkships, academia, etc.)

If I'm lucky enough to have the opportunity, do you think I should transfer to University of Chicago? Any idea what my chances would be? Should I consider transferring to any other schools? I don't want to work in New York so I kind of ruled out Columbia and NYU, and I don't think I'd have a great shot at Yale or Stanford because of the smaller transfer classes, so the only other school I'm really considering is Harvard.

Yeah, Chicago sounds doable for you (although I didn't get in, so I'm not the best person to consult on what they're looking for in a transfer candidate). Don't bank on it, but your stats make you a strong candidate for them, I think. Did you consider their ED transfer program? I don't know what the deadline for that, so you may be too late.

Either way, you should apply to all of the T6, particularly if you're talking about academia. Columbia and NYU hardly pigeonhole you into working in NYC, so I don't think that should be an important consideration. Chicago's legal market is ailing more than most, so getting out of that area could be a good idea, too.

All that said, your full scholarship should make even a T6 a choice worth some serious thought. If you get admitted to a T6, you're pretty much in a win-win situation, so that should be your aim.

[Wholigan]

If you steal Cornell from me, I will cut you (j/k). I think Cornell is definitely "worth it" and I will be applying, but I have a close family member who is a recent grad of the law school, so I have pretty major Cornell bias (I also think you're "in" at CNP anyway).

I do appreciate OP's anti-GULC trolling, though. Also, I have no chance at HYS right now and know it, but I'm very very very impressed by OP's getting one of the "holy trinity" out of a T2.

lol... Maybe I should be worried about you stealing it from me, with your insider connection! My thought is that Cornell is worth it too, but I thought so before the recent NLJ data came along. Before it came out, I thought Cornell might be a "safety" transfer if there is such a thing, because less people will be bidding on it, but I bet the NLJ data alone will cause transfer apps to jump a little.

[leppotse]

OP,

Thanks for the awesome thread -- I'm currently wrestling with this same issue myself. My current quandary is almost all financial. I'm #1 in an NJ school (narrowing my identity down to 3 people...) and hopefully I will retain the same rank (or very close) come spring semester grades.

My questions for you, then:

-Given my profile, do you think I have a shot at T6?

-If yes, do you think my job prospects will be so significantly improved by transferring that it will be worth the $100k+ hit? Is HY worth it but not Columbia/NYU?

-Do you ever regret taking on the student loan debt needed to pay sticker at wherever you transfered to?

I don't have any great interest in academia like yourself; right now I'm simply struggling with whether or not the employment boost will be worth the loss of my scholarship.

Thanks!

I understand your predicament!

The way I see it is that if you're #1 (or thereabouts) at one of the NJ schools, odds are heavily in your favor to get biglaw if you seek it. However, transferring to a T6 (which you'd definitely be in contention to do--NYU would probably be a lock) would provide you with a significant safety net in case your grades start to slip/you get no-offered/you get laid off/you hate your firm and want to do something else before you've had a chance to firmly establish yourself and your work product. These are all real possibilities.

Among practicing attorneys I've met who transferred to schools like NYU, all have said it was a decisively good decision, one about which they've had no regrets. Conventional wisdom on TLS (and in many other places) says that after the first year, it does not matter where you went to law school at all--only your "work product" matters. There is a grain of truth in that statement, but it is far from a divine decree. If you have to look for a new job, your law school will be front and center on your resume. The legal profession is obsessed with prestige, and where you went to school really does follow you--remember, prospective employers often won't be familiar with your work product, particularly if you find yourself in a disadvantageous position, like applying for jobs while unemployed. In addition, top schools give you instant and intimate access to a large group of students who will almost all be successful in the future, and who will forever see you as a comrade and a peer--that kind of networking advantage is hard to price.

So, sorry! I may have muddied the waters for you more. But to attempt an answer to your questoin, I would probably have transferred to a T6 if I had been in your position, but without academic aspirations, it's a very close call in my mind.

[mbstuff]

leppotse, thanks for the thread. I'm a little stressed today about my options, and seeing this thread today was very informative.

Did you always plan to transfer out of your school to a higher ranked school? If so, do you think going to a T2 school helped you by making it easier to receive top grades your first year?

I'm in my 30s with a low undergrad GPA from an Ivy League school (below the median on all schools to which I applied) and a 170-ish LSAT. Because it's been over 10 years since I graduated college and my undergraduate grades, I initially planned on going to my state school, which is barely in T1 and offers great value in in-state tuition. They also just offered me a grant for half off the tuition. I figured that if I end up doing well (hopefully the maturity of age outweighs the negatives of being plain old), I'd be able to transfer for the second year. If I end up not doing fantastically well, I would stay, and it would at least be really affordable.

I did apply to ten schools across a wide range because I wasn't sure where I fit as a candidate (though idiotically, I submitted on the deadline date on all of them except the state school). Now that the decisions are coming in, I'm not sure if my initial approach of going to the state school for the first year is a good approach. I got rejected from Boalt, got into USC, and just got a waiting list decision from Duke. I expect a few more decisions to come in, but from what I have so far, I'm pretty sure I'll be rejected from NYU. UVA, Georgetown and UCLA will be close calls possibly. I will probably stop considering a couple of the other schools that are ranked lower.

The question I have is, should I do everything I can to try to make it to Duke or another T14? I think I have these three scenarios:

1. State school

Positives: T1. Best school in the state with wide alumni network. Great job opportunities in-state. Great value due to low in-state tuition, low cost of living and grant. Better chances of receiving top grades for possible transfer to a higher ranked school.

Negatives: Barely T1. Limited opportunities out-of-state. This last point is very important to me. The main reason for pursuing a T14 school or transferring after L1 is to go to a national school.

2. USC, or if I get in, UCLA

Positives: Top 20. Hopefully state-wide and nation-wide job opportunities. Big city and nice weather.

Negatives: Full cost - $70,000 a year in tuition and cost of living. Not T14.

3. Beg and cajole to get into Duke or the other T14 schools.

Positives: T14 and its attendant career flexibility and prospects.

Negatives: Full cost

The variable I don't have is the transfer issue. If I go to a state school, I have to think I have a decent chance of being able to transfer for the second year, which would save me $40,000 that first year. I don't expect grants from the other schools. I even dream that if I do really, really well at the state school, I'll be able to try for my dream schools of Boalt or Stanford in year 2. If I attend USC or Duke, I have close to zero confidence that I'll be able to pull the grades to allow a transfer into Boalt or Stanford. But then again, maybe I'm mistaken, and it would be really hard to transfer from the state school also. Maybe I would be giving up at a chance at a T14 school altogether by going to the state school. I'm confident about being able to get into the top 10%, but maybe that's not enough? Should I just be doing everything I can to get Duke to accept me off of that waiting list or hope to get into Georgetown/UVA?

Sorry for the long post. I'm trying to get my thoughts in order.

[leppotse]

...

I typed out a reply, but I misclicked and it vanished! Anyway, I'll summarize it:

1. I didn't plan to transfer, and I think it's a bad idea to go to school with that idea in mind. That's TLS conventional wisdom, but unlike some conventional wisdom around here, it's very valid. It seems for the most part like you're not planning that--but you did say that you were thinking about having a better shot to do well at a T1 than at a T20. That kind of thinking can get you in trouble--every T1 is very competitive, and they're all much closer in student body quality than USNews would have you believe. As a said in a previous post, the biggest difference between my HYS and my T2 was that the T2 had a drop off that wasn't present at my HYS--but there was still a large proportion of the class (say 20 to 30 percent) who were all competitive to be in the top 5%, but most of them didn't get it.

2. Without knowing your UGPA or your goals out of law school, I'm not sure how to advise you on your other options. That said, USC sounds like a bad option--much bigger cost, but probably not much better job opportunities.