MVPB, $$, law review OR Harvard Forum

[yellowjacket2012]

Hmm. The way I see it, you can keep your professors to recommend you (which is at least the case in my situation/at my school), and Law Review is only so valuable. If 10% of the class is on Law Review but only 3-4% if placing into really competitive COAs, you might be better off trying your hand at Harvard. Nor do I think all of the competitive clerkships at Harvard are restricted to people on LR.

I totally agree with the "keep your professors" thing, if you can pull it off. Its just a lot easier to "keep your professors" when they see you in the hallways for 3 years, and you take like 2-3 classes with them or something. I'm working on my connections at Northwestern by doing summer work for two profs, hopefully that pans out.

I don't really agree with your statement of "Law review is only so valuable" from a school like MVPB. Getting through the "admissions office" at Harvard is a pretty neat accomplishment, grading/writing on to law review, and engaging in that whole law review process for two years, at a top 10 law school - is a very different proposition. Arguably, if you transfer to Harvard or wherever, and graduate with great grades in your 2L and 3L years at Harvard (which is very unlikely to predict even if you're top of the class at Michigan, because - its Harvard, people are crazy there) - then your grades, despite no HLR, may be good enough for a COA clerkship. But its a huge gamble, you don't have any guarantee of doing well at HARVARD - compared to MVPB, why give up law review in HAND??!?!

[Na_Swatch]

If I were you, I'd use your HLS offer to negotiate a full scholarship from MVPB, and enjoy the rest of the ride.

umm, are you just making things up here? I've never heard of a T14 school giving a scholarship to 2L students to keep them from transferring, much less a full ride.

[documentaryjunkie]

If your goal is to get into a nice clerkship after you graduate, I would stick with LR at your current school. I could be wrong, but it appears that the vast majority of clerk placements have LR.

[interalia]

Hmm. The way I see it, you can keep your professors to recommend you (which is at least the case in my situation/at my school), and Law Review is only so valuable. If 10% of the class is on Law Review but only 3-4% if placing into really competitive COAs, you might be better off trying your hand at Harvard. Nor do I think all of the competitive clerkships at Harvard are restricted to people on LR.

I totally agree with the "keep your professors" thing, if you can pull it off. Its just a lot easier to "keep your professors" when they see you in the hallways for 3 years, and you take like 2-3 classes with them or something. I'm working on my connections at Northwestern by doing summer work for two profs, hopefully that pans out.

I don't really agree with your statement of "Law review is only so valuable" from a school like MVPB. Getting through the "admissions office" at Harvard is a pretty neat accomplishment, grading/writing on to law review, and engaging in that whole law review process for two years, at a top 10 law school - is a very different proposition. Arguably, if you transfer to Harvard or wherever, and graduate with great grades in your 2L and 3L years at Harvard (which is very unlikely to predict even if you're top of the class at Michigan, because - its Harvard, people are crazy there) - then your grades, despite no HLR, may be good enough for a COA clerkship. But its a huge gamble, you don't have any guarantee of doing well at HARVARD - compared to MVPB, why give up law review in HAND??!?!

I don't think there is a big difference between the top of the class at a top 10 and the top of the class at Harvard at all. Few people would argue that there is. If you're top 10% or better at MVPB you'll probably do nearly as well at Harvard.

The IT'S HARVARD thing is more relevant to reputation than the actual small difference in student quality between those schools.

[clintonius]

Consider too that law-school rank quickly recedes into irrelevance once you get into the "real world." In my experience, the topic of law schools never comes up. Consequently, I don't draw any distinction between, say, Harvard or Georgetown or Duke, or the other fine-grained rankings that apparently carry over from the application process.

0L disclaimer -- this sounds iffy, especially coming from a first-time poster. Anybody with more experience care to comment?

[yellowjacket2012]

I don't think there is a big difference between the top of the class at a top 10 and the top of the class at Harvard at all. Few people would argue that there is. If you're top 10% or better at MVPB you'll probably do nearly as well at Harvard.

The IT'S HARVARD thing is more relevant to reputation than the actual small difference in student quality between those schools.

Most if not all HLS students were admitted into Michigan, with money in many cases; whereas most Michigan students were not admitted at HLS <-- I could be wrong about this, I'm just going to make that one up.

I don't really think someone who did top 10% at Michigan can just walk into Harvard and think he's going to do "nearly as well." But I'm just restating my conclusion.

[interalia]

I don't think there is a big difference between the top of the class at a top 10 and the top of the class at Harvard at all. Few people would argue that there is. If you're top 10% or better at MVPB you'll probably do nearly as well at Harvard.

The IT'S HARVARD thing is more relevant to reputation than the actual small difference in student quality between those schools.

Most if not all HLS students were admitted into Michigan, with money in many cases; whereas most Michigan students were not admitted at HLS <-- I could be wrong about this, I'm just going to make that one up.

I don't really think someone who did top 10% at Michigan can just walk into Harvard and think he's going to do "nearly as well." But I'm just restating my conclusion.

Not disagreeing with your first paragraph at all. A good portion of the Darrows were probably admitted at H, but not many more. The difference between admission to Harvard and admission to Michigan is not that large, though. It's 3-4 questions on the LSAT for most people. Also, I don't see the LSAT having that much relevance in terms of law school performance when you compare a 170 and a 173.

For example, a transfer I know from my UT/UCLA/Vanderbilt to CCN did just as well (top 10%) at CCN as he did at UT/UCLA/Vanderbilt.

[Cleareyes]

(which is very unlikely to predict even if you're top of the class at Michigan, because - its Harvard, people are crazy there)

Harvard students probably study less, on average, than Michigan students. We CERTAINLY seem to study less than students at Northwestern. The "It's Harvard, people are crazy there" is absolutely not credited. There are a few people at the very tip top of the class who might be nuts in this way, but that's true at every school.

[270910]

There is a lot of dangerous advice in this thread.

First: It is impossible (completely out of the question) for OP to get on Harvard Law Review. The calculus is different at, say, Yale and Stanford.

Second: A large number of judges consider Law Review (real law review, not 'a journal') a defacto requirement.

Third: One cool thing about national law schools (T14ish, particularly the T10) is that the top of the class at all of the schools sees nearly identical career prospects. Obviously 'top' of the class extends further south at H than it does at G, but the point stands. 0Ls get it into their heads that OOOhhhHHhh Haaarrvvaarddd without fully comprehending how much of a difference law school performance makes.

Transferring to Harvard is unlikely to HURT your prospects at OCI. It can throw a wrench into clerkship apps - I know profs who refuse to write for transfers and I also know profs who have no problem with it. But either way you're moving away, and that's going to make it harder to have deeper connections/meetings/take classes, you know? You're also giving up law review, which is a serious problem for a lot of judges. And you wind up having to move to a new location, meet new people, AND try to convince a herd of profs who have already endeared themselves to a group of (hundreds of) 1Ls that you're worthy of a rec/phone call. It's not impossible by any stretch of the imagination - but it's a risk. And the students on law review with grades good enough to transfer to H from a T10 are also the students who are going to win praise/support from the profs and be first in line for the large number of federal judges who hire from the top of whatever T10 it is.

That's just the way it works.

Really, the money changes everything. Going to Harvard would not destroy OP's career, but it would be VERY unlikely to improve it. Throw a few Gs on the side of the T10, and it would be a poor decision.

MarkTwain is very upfront about the fact that he was in a similar position: Admitted to Stanford, high grades at a T10 + LR. Two huge differences in that situation were that S gave him a lot of $$$ (it's complex, but HYS are need blind so you can get grants in certain circumstances that you may not have been illegible for at the T10) AND Stanford has a law review competition which is both generous and after transfer decisions are made.

That's my two cents, and I've thought about this a lot. At the end of the day, if you really WANT Harvard and maybe aren't that happy at the T10 - what the hell, have the adventure. But the only people telling you that it will improve your legal career prospects are those who don't know what they're talking about.

As for non-legal career prospects, I don't think it will matter nearly enough to be a relevant consideration. Given your grades and pedigree, you'll likely wind up hob-nobbing with HYS students whether you GO to HYS or not

[270910]

Oh, and for the CoA/Academia types: Grades good enough to transfer to H + LR at a T10 is good enough for academia, CoA clerkships, and at or damn near good enough for a shot at SCOTUS depending on the school. H places MORE students in those things, but once a person is already 'in the running' at a T10 it's not like transferring will magically increase their chances. This seems to be another thing people have a hard time wrapping their heads around ITT.

[dbt]

I think if you're top 5-10% at MVP(B?) then you can feel relatively comfortable that you'll do alright at Harvard if you continue to work hard. I don't think the difference in student quality is drastic.

[MarkTwain]

Disco_Barred's posts here = TCR. One minor alteration though: Aid at HYS is need-based, not need-blind. I believe Disco's point, however, was that aid is sometimes available at HYS although it was not at a transfer students T-10 school.

[on_ne_sait_jamais]

(which is very unlikely to predict even if you're top of the class at Michigan, because - its Harvard, people are crazy there)

Harvard students probably study less, on average, than Michigan students. We CERTAINLY seem to study less than students at Northwestern. The "It's Harvard, people are crazy there" is absolutely not credited. There are a few people at the very tip top of the class who might be nuts in this way, but that's true at every school.

this is an absurd statement. unless you transferred from Harvard to Northwestern, how would you know this? Also, Northwester students are too busy with their families, start ups, and booze to study... everyone knows that.

[Eeyore]

Disco's post is right on the money.

And in response to the poster above, I don't know whether you can negotiate a better package, although I've heard of people doing this at lower-ranked schools. I would fully expect that your success here would depend on your grades and what, if any, financial package HLS offers you.

As for the poster who expressed skepticism about my advice on law-school rankings: you're a 0L, so of course law-school rank is very important, because you need that degree to open doors. Once you pass through those doors (which OP will, given his sterling credentials), you'll work toward the next set of options. At that point, employers will review your work experience---if you're a litigator, how many depos you've taken, whether you've successfully managed discovery, what motions you've drafted; or if you're a corps atty, what role you played in structuring and closing deals, client contact, etc.

At my firm, I don't even know where most associates on my floor went for law school. It's assumed that if you're at the firm, your credentials were sufficient. Going forward, you're evaluated on your work product and your interaction with others, which is exactly what you'd expect.

[NYAssociate]

.

[Cleareyes]

(which is very unlikely to predict even if you're top of the class at Michigan, because - its Harvard, people are crazy there)

Harvard students probably study less, on average, than Michigan students. We CERTAINLY seem to study less than students at Northwestern. The "It's Harvard, people are crazy there" is absolutely not credited. There are a few people at the very tip top of the class who might be nuts in this way, but that's true at every school.

this is an absurd statement. unless you transferred from Harvard to Northwestern, how would you know this? Also, Northwester students are too busy with their families, start ups, and booze to study... everyone knows that.

Knowing people at northwestern who told me how much they study. Also there are surveys.

[UCLAtransfer]

Mallard- Thanks for the response. But, why? It seems to me like my opportunities would be the same regardless if I stay or transfer. Do you think there would be better opportunities post-graduation and down the road if I stay?

The money is right and you're on law review. Seems easy to me. But I could be wrong.

I won't hear about financial aid from H for a few weeks. (I don't have the info to apply for fin aid yet). But, I the $$ isn't swaying me too much regardless.

And, I'm not quite sure how to compare law review with H and no law review. I would imagine within the legal community T14 law review is equally as prestigious as H, but I'm not 100% sure I want to be a lawyer forever.

If you want a clerkship, keep the law review and rank at the top 10 school.

Credited.

[flightcontrol]

. . .

[vyelps]

I don't think OP goes to Michigan. I may be wrong but I dont think our Law Review results are out yet.

[SuichiKurama]

Does anyone know if the strategy about using this situation to bargain extra scholarship money from you current school works (ie the OP used his transfer acceptance at Harvard to leverage more money out of MVBP)?

[ToTransferOrNot]

This is a horrible, horrible, fantastic choice to have to make.

TTCR: You should have done the H LR write-on!

TTCR2: If you get in to Yale, go.

Aside from those things... I would probably stay. Not having Law Review sucks for clerkship applications--I'm starting to think I'm going to get shut out. I'm not at Harvard, but top 1% from CCN should mean something--it doesn't, not without LR.

As far as leveraging more money: it can never hurt to try.

[D.Wilde]

Disclaimer: Total Thread Hijack

I'm in a very similar position, except replace MVPB with BU/BC. Thoughts? Does BU's lack of T14-itude make the choice to transfer to H that much simpler? I'm also interested in clerkship -> biglaw (Boston).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[ToTransferOrNot]

Disclaimer: Total Thread Hijack

I'm in a very similar position, except replace MVPB with BU/BC. Thoughts? Does BU's lack of T14-itude make the choice to transfer to H that much simpler? I'm also interested in clerkship -> biglaw (Boston).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

This is no contest. BU/BC is not MVPB. Transfer.

[Na_Swatch]

Disclaimer: Total Thread Hijack

I'm in a very similar position, except replace MVPB with BU/BC. Thoughts? Does BU's lack of T14-itude make the choice to transfer to H that much simpler? I'm also interested in clerkship -> biglaw (Boston).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

This is no contest. BU/BC is not MVPB. Transfer.

Yep, you're lucky that you face a no-brainer.. definitely transfer to H