Georgetown EA Applicants Forum

[apper123]

@ apper123

Can I ask where you transferred from?

I was gunna decline to specify, but then I realized my post history very likely reveals me . URich.

[YellowDD]

@ apper123

Can I ask where you transferred from?

I was gunna decline to specify, but then I realized my post history very likely reveals me . URich.

Did you get in EA or RD?

[apper123]

@ apper123

Can I ask where you transferred from?

I was gunna decline to specify, but then I realized my post history very likely reveals me . URich.

Did you get in EA or RD?

EA

[jarofsoup]

Going to ED to Chicago and see how my grades are during the spring and then go for everything else.

I have no interest in Vandy. Part of my attraction to GWU is that it is in a city where I can actually live.

My only reservations with GW/GULC is that, unless you are living within immediate proximity to the actual main part of the District of Columbia or Arlington, the place is one gigantic CF. It sprawls on for like a 100 miles in every direction. My brother-in-law lives about 20 minutes outside of downtown when there is no traffic, when taking that drive during morning/evening commute it's nearly 2.5 hours each way. I blame building height restrictions.

I mean, given the significantly better job prospects of GW/GULC and my family/friend proximity to DC it makes too much sense to turn down. But after living in other cities, DC is about as enjoyable to be in as pulling your fingernails off with pliers.

Living in DC is very enjoyable. I really like it. It's great for a young mid 20s-35 type crowd, especially if single.

If you prefer suburbs, Northern Virginia is a very reasonable place to live and still attend GW/GULC. I know many students with families who live there and commute in. The commute isn't bad at all if you take the metro and, honestly, driving in isn't nearly as bad as it looks/seems as long as you are coming from a suburb right near the city (like Arlington).

What are my odds?

- T4
- A+, A, A, B+ (highest grade in torts, civ pro, and legal methods)
- 3.83 - 5/227
- Currently research assistant with first semester torts professor (he approached me)
- this coming summer: clerk Fed. Dist. Ct.
- 4 very strong LOR's, all from law profs who basically said they would be stupid not to take me
- very GULC centered PS

I am not sure if my softs will matter at all, but I think I put together a strong application. Any idea what my odds might be?

Weird question, but are your class mates any more engaged than they were at the T2?

[apper123]

Weird question, but are your class mates any more engaged than they were at the T2?

I get asked this question a lot. It's most awkward when colleagues from my old school ask it, except they are typically far more blunt: "SO ARE THE STUDENTS SMARTER?" Sigh. I try not to answer, but many of them will press me until I say something (and I just generally spew off non-committal BS to avoid any further social suicide).

Yes and no. People are definitely a lot more laid back here. There's no feel of "I NEED TO GET As OR I DIE ALONE AND BROKE!!!" as there is at some other schools. We go out a lot and enjoy socializing.

I hesitate to say this as to not come off as a dick, but I'm not sure how else to put it... the quality of class discussion, academic development and intellectual engagement is definitely far superior.

Not that I really like going to class, but students are often saying intelligent things or have solid contributions. I've had many moments where I'm extraordinarily impressed with the abilities of my classmates.

All these people are going to be extremely successful, and I am able to engage them on topical issues (such as debating the healthcare law, for example) on a really invigorating intellectual level at all times. They know their stuff. Now I sound like a darn admissions commercial, but I really like it here and my classmates are very smart. The professors and scholars I've been exposed to (Judge Silberman, Viet Dinh, Randy Barnett, Paul Clement, just to name a few) have left impressions on me that will last a lifetime.

I struggled initially as a 2L to make friends, find a social circle and start "hanging out with law students," but as soon as I got involved in student organizations and clinics, that all went away.

Class attendance is sort of... bad among 3Ls and some 2Ls if the professor isn't a rock star or an entertaining prof. There are some profs/classes where everyone walks out saying the same thing every day: "Why do I even come to class?" But that's the case at any institution. You can avoid those profs if you want to. There's so many classes available here.

Most of us 3Ls are either ready to work (3L year really isn't necessary at all) or running around trying to chase dreams (aka find work in pursuit of our delusions of grandeur), so that explains the 2nd semester 3L absent mindedness. The curve is very generous.

GULC alumni have been very helpful to me in job search stuff despite having no other connection with me.

I took on a lot more debt to come to GULC (gave up a scholly + lower tuition at my old school), didn't get biglaw and don't regret it all. Coming here is one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life. I was very blessed to have the opportunity.

[arigoldwannabe]

Weird question, but are your class mates any more engaged than they were at the T2?

I get asked this question a lot. It's most awkward when colleagues from my old school ask it, except they are typically far more blunt: "SO ARE THE STUDENTS SMARTER?" Sigh. I try not to answer, but many of them will press me until I say something (and I just generally spew off non-committal BS to avoid any further social suicide).

Yes and no. People are definitely a lot more laid back here. There's no feel of "I NEED TO GET As OR I DIE ALONE AND BROKE!!!" as there is at some other schools. We go out a lot and enjoy socializing.

I hesitate to say this as to not come off as a dick, but I'm not sure how else to put it... the quality of class discussion, academic development and intellectual engagement is definitely far superior.

Not that I really like going to class, but students are often saying intelligent things or have solid contributions. I've had many moments where I'm extraordinarily impressed with the abilities of my classmates.

All these people are going to be extremely successful, and I am able to engage them on topical issues (such as debating the healthcare law, for example) on a really invigorating intellectual level at all times. They know their stuff. Now I sound like a darn admissions commercial, but I really like it here and my classmates are very smart. The professors and scholars I've been exposed to (Judge Silberman, Viet Dinh, Randy Barnett, Paul Clement, just to name a few) have left impressions on me that will last a lifetime.

I struggled initially as a 2L to make friends, find a social circle and start "hanging out with law students," but as soon as I got involved in student organizations and clinics, that all went away.

Class attendance is sort of... bad among 3Ls and some 2Ls if the professor isn't a rock star or an entertaining prof. There are some profs/classes where everyone walks out saying the same thing every day: "Why do I even come to class?" But that's the case at any institution. You can avoid those profs if you want to. There's so many classes available here.

Most of us 3Ls are either ready to work (3L year really isn't necessary at all) or running around trying to chase dreams (aka find work in pursuit of our delusions of grandeur), so that explains the 2nd semester 3L absent mindedness. The curve is very generous.

GULC alumni have been very helpful to me in job search stuff despite having no other connection with me.

I took on a lot more debt to come to GULC (gave up a scholly + lower tuition at my old school), didn't get biglaw and don't regret it all. Coming here is one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life. I was very blessed to have the opportunity.

Thank you for your insight.

Did you not desire to get biglaw or is it tough to get as a transfer?

[3|ink]

Thanks apper123. That's just what I needed to hear.

[rogermurdoch]

Weird question, but are your class mates any more engaged than they were at the T2?

I get asked this question a lot. It's most awkward when colleagues from my old school ask it, except they are typically far more blunt: "SO ARE THE STUDENTS SMARTER?" Sigh. I try not to answer, but many of them will press me until I say something (and I just generally spew off non-committal BS to avoid any further social suicide).

Yes and no. People are definitely a lot more laid back here. There's no feel of "I NEED TO GET As OR I DIE ALONE AND BROKE!!!" as there is at some other schools. We go out a lot and enjoy socializing.

I hesitate to say this as to not come off as a dick, but I'm not sure how else to put it... the quality of class discussion, academic development and intellectual engagement is definitely far superior.

Not that I really like going to class, but students are often saying intelligent things or have solid contributions. I've had many moments where I'm extraordinarily impressed with the abilities of my classmates.

All these people are going to be extremely successful, and I am able to engage them on topical issues (such as debating the healthcare law, for example) on a really invigorating intellectual level at all times. They know their stuff. Now I sound like a darn admissions commercial, but I really like it here and my classmates are very smart. The professors and scholars I've been exposed to (Judge Silberman, Viet Dinh, Randy Barnett, Paul Clement, just to name a few) have left impressions on me that will last a lifetime.

I struggled initially as a 2L to make friends, find a social circle and start "hanging out with law students," but as soon as I got involved in student organizations and clinics, that all went away.

Class attendance is sort of... bad among 3Ls and some 2Ls if the professor isn't a rock star or an entertaining prof. There are some profs/classes where everyone walks out saying the same thing every day: "Why do I even come to class?" But that's the case at any institution. You can avoid those profs if you want to. There's so many classes available here.

Most of us 3Ls are either ready to work (3L year really isn't necessary at all) or running around trying to chase dreams (aka find work in pursuit of our delusions of grandeur), so that explains the 2nd semester 3L absent mindedness. The curve is very generous.

GULC alumni have been very helpful to me in job search stuff despite having no other connection with me.

I took on a lot more debt to come to GULC (gave up a scholly + lower tuition at my old school), didn't get biglaw and don't regret it all. Coming here is one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life. I was very blessed to have the opportunity.

Thank you for your insight.

Did you not desire to get biglaw or is it tough to get as a transfer?

I would also like to know how competitive transfers are for biglaw. Obviously transfers are all going to have top grades from their 1L schools. Does the rank of the 1L school influence success at OCI?

[jarofsoup]

When did you hear from GULC? I tailored my personal statement to Georgetown do you think they will care?

[apper123]

You can tell it's finals time, because I just took a really long time to write this post, haha. I apologize for the length. I dunno what got into me. I also am shipping this off without proofreading it, cause screw that .

Thank you for your insight.
Did you not desire to get biglaw or is it tough to get as a transfer?

Both. I’ll lay out what happened to me.

I didn’t want BigLaw as a career. It sounds like a death sentence for someone like me. I love interacting with people, and I’m still at an age where I have delusions of grandeur about saving the world and altering national policy. I’m told I will develop a bitter cynicism within 5-10 years or so, and I believe those people, but I haven’t yet, haha.

But I was willing to work it at least as a Summer Associate and probably for the first 3ish years of my career. It’s a great foundation to a resume and also an excellent way to get rid of student loan debt.

BigLaw firms don’t want to hire people like me. Here’s an anecdote from one of my OCI interviews to explain that (feel free to skip it if you aren’t the story type… I’ll italicize it):

I went into a screener with a Skadden office in a secondary market. It wasn’t a market I had a lot of ties to and, honestly, it was like my rank 45 bid or something. You aren’t supposed to get interviews with your rank 45 bids, so I used mine on really bizarre secondary locations cause despite having no ties to the market (and thus a very low chance of getting a job), I figured an interview from my 35+ ranked bids is better than no interview.

The partner opened up immediately asking me why I wanted to work in this market. I had like some sort of random tangential tie and gave the best answer I could. Then he asked the associate with him to tell me about the firm softball team. I knew at this point I may as well just leave.

But I decided to take advantage of the opportunity to be candid (especially since I didn’t have any other interviews with Skadden locations) and get inside his head. Guys like this love to share their… insights if you give them the opportunity. I asked him why people stress regional ties so much (beyond the obvious), and what the biggest thing he’s trying to find out about candidates is?

And he gave about a 15 minute answer. The first thing he said was he needs to find someone who loves the area and wants to live there for the indefinite future, so they don’t leave the firm due to family issues or otherwise. The second thing he said was he needs to find someone dedicated to a career in BigLaw. He told me how much he pays associates, how much they bill and then remarked that he loses a “[poop]ton” of money on associates who leave after 3-5 years. They “[screw]” him, so he said he actively tries to get people to spew whether or not they are dedicated in a career to this. He claimed most associates don’t start turning him a profit (as a partner) until after year 4 or 5.

That said, I initially got around 12 interviews. I then through last chance bidding and alternate spots managed to secure 6 more. I don’t know anyone else who had more than 18 interviews without double dipping (more on that later). I bid heavily in DC KNOWING that was going to be tough. The DC market is HARD to crack, but I wanted to stay here so I gave it a shot. As a bit of a backup I placed around 1/3 (IIRC) of my bids in NY and some other random markets.

I received 2 callbacks: one with a V50 firm on Wall Street and another with a V100 firm in DC. The V100 firm brought in like 50 callbacks for 3 SA positions. I didn’t get in there. The V50 firm had around a 40-50% offer rate, and here’s how my day there went (again in italics if you want to skip it):

Interview 1 was with the big scary partner. The most stereotypical biglaw attorney you could ever imagine. He was funny, though, and he and I had a good chat. He asked me about baseball, football and then a few generic questions about the firm. It was totally a personality thing. He seemed to like me.

Interview 2 was with a random junior partner. He asked me more substantive questions about my interests, what I knew about the financial sector and what type of practice group I’d want to go into. He was pretty stale, so I didn’t get much of a read.

There was a 1st year associate (a few years older than me at best… I’m 25, was 24 at the time), leading me from interview to interview.
Interview 3 was him taking me back to his office, closing the door, taking off his tie, putting his feet up on the desk and telling me I could relax and be really candid with him… that this time was to ask him tough questions about what it was like to work here. Except he kept going back to asking me where I wanted to raise a family. He pegged me with at least 3 or 4 questions on how I liked DC. He then asked me what I knew about New York. Then he would say something like, “I mean New York is great, but let’s be honest DC would be the place you’d want to raise a family, right?”

I was prepared for this, thankfully, and gave all the right answers. Of course the whole “informal” thing is just meant to get me to put my guard down, and all the questions about DC were pegged to identify if I’m looking to skip town in a few years to lateral back to a DC firm.

Interview 4 was with another top partner. She got me. I was prepared for everyone else and read all their trap questions, but she got me. She started talking about securities regulation, which is of course one of their firm’s primary practices. Then she started asking me about Bernie Madoff… then she started asking me what I felt about economic regulatory policy and how the SEC could have better handled Madoff. With leading questions, she eventually ignited the policy animal inside me and I went off about all the policy/political stuff (not political as in GOP/DNC, but political as in reforms to deal with securities fraud) that I am passionate about.

Then she stops, holds up my resume and says: “I read this resume and I hear what you are saying now. DC is where you should be. You love policy, lobbying, politics, all that. You’d hate a financial firm. I mean this resume just screams DC and your passion for policy reform is apparent. Do you agree?”

I was speechless, but I knew at that point I was done. I tried to run damage control as best I could, but it was a lost cause. I didn’t receive an offer.

~2 callbacks seemed to be standard for most transfer students. I know 1 girl who double dipped and got offers from both her home school’s OCI and GULC’s OCI, eventually taking one she got from her home school’s OCI. The firms could care less, but I’m sure her home school was ticked. I think double dipping is unethical, but ITEITEITEITE can you really blame people half the time? I, personally, would not do that, though. You burn lots of bridges that way, and it just doesn’t seem right.

I know some guys who were top of their class at GW who took offers at V5 firms. I actually have no idea why they transferred. I can’t see a benefit at giving up LR & top 3% at GW (if you want to work in DC, which they did) to come to GULC, have your GPA wiped out and pay more money. But to each his own. That’s one of the few schools I’d say that about. I think a switch to GULC for most people who want to work in DC or outside of their school’s regional market is a fantastic decision. (Or if they want to clerk or go into academia… but top 3% at GW is going to make you very competitive for even circuit clerkships, so still don’t see the point).

I know lots of transfers struck out, even guys with top 5% grades from schools like Washington & Lee. Your 1L grades DO matter. They DO look at them and every firm wanted my transcript + a writing sample from my 1L year. Now they don’t care as much, but they did then. If your heart is set on BigLaw, don’t let your 2nd semester grades slip even if you do get in.

That said my heart wasn’t set on BigLaw. I was almost relieved to not get an offer (and I’m not just saying that). I hear all the stories about how hard it is to walk away after a few years and how many people get sucked into the black hole because change is scary. Knowing myself, I wonder if that could have turned out to be me. I did not want BigLaw as a career. 100%.

As for transfers now, the job situations vary. I know guys who are unemployed, but it’s because they haven’t put a ton of effort into looking. It’s still tough, however. I applied to the DoJ Honors Program, was a finalist (they even brought me in to interview), but was not offered a position. I was unable to secure any paying 2L summer work. Lots of places rejected me. My grades are fine, but so are everyone else’s.
IF you really want a paying job out of GULC, you’ll find one. If you want a paying job that you like, I can’t guarantee that. If you want a high paying job, I definitely can’t guarantee that. But I think I can say with good certainty you’ll get a job somewhere as long as you are willing to take a wide variety of work. That’s just how it is these days in all job markets.

It’s worth noting I bid heavily in the secondary market where my original school resides… on the recommendation of Career Services. Superficially this may seem like a no-brainer, but think about it a bit deeper: firms are looking for people who want to live in the area and don’t want to skip town after 3-5 years. If I really wanted BigLaw in the market of my original school, I wouldn’t have transferred (and I would have gotten it). But I did transfer. What message does that send to my interviewers? OF course I spun the most delicate speech I could to explain, but it’s completely illogical if I really wanted to make a career in the market. So I’m either very stupid (why’d you want to hire me then!?) or I’m looking to cash out in 5 years (yup).

I would also like to know how competitive transfers are for biglaw. Obviously transfers are all going to have top grades from their 1L schools. Does the rank of the 1L school influence success at OCI?

I’m not entirely sure. I assume so. Most commented on the reputation of my school. The DC firms certainly knew about it. Some of the NY firms didn’t even know it existed. Some guys just said, “Wow they have a great b-school there too.” I will say that making a run in March Madness does wonders for a school’s reputation. I’m dead serious.

I don’t think hiring partners pay as close attention to rankings as we do. I know guys who are hiring partners or work in biglaw who have no clue where their own school is ranked, much less any other. They deal with general reputation. A jump or a drop 5-10 spots in rankings is probably meaningless. Reputations are in their minds for a long time. They aren’t going to change their hiring practices based on marginal jumps in US News metrics each year. Let me disclaim this by saying this is based partially off of my own conjecture and a small sample size of my friends who work in BigLaw.

When did you hear from GULC? I tailored my personal statement to Georgetown do you think they will care?

I don’t remember. I think it was the 2nd or 3rd week of April, but don’t quote me. I’d comb through the past threads to try and nail down the dates, but honestly, that’s not going to do you any good. It’ll come when it comes. I was admitted in the first wave (we were also the first group to have our status checker go to decision rendered).

Yes, I think they will care quite a bit. At our orientation, the dean of admissions talked a lot about how they really looked holistically at each candidate. I know guys with numbers essentially identical to mine who were rejected in RD, while I got in ED. I had very compelling reasons to come to DC and talked at length about why I wanted to go to GULC specifically in my PS. The year before my class they admitted like ~100 xfers and they cut it to ~60 for our year, so they definitely had to scale things back. I really do believe transfer admissions are MUCH more holistic than 0L admissions. Remember, this stuff doesn’t get reported to US News. It’s a different ballgame. Do you need to have the #s? Of course. But guess what? Tons of people have the #s. Tell them why YOU want to come here and why YOU will be successful here. Having a student transfer in and get lost in the hustle of the city, DC politics and academic rigor is a disaster. Tell them why you’re gonna thrive here. I actually talked specifically about clinical programs, professors and other elements of the school. In fact, I spent a semester in one of the clinics I specifically discussed in my PS.

[jarofsoup]

Thank you for all of the feed back. One of my main concerns about GULC is the size of the student body. It is a huge huge law school. Should this really be a concern or has it really no negative impact.

[apper123]

Thank you for all of the feed back. One of my main concerns about GULC is the size of the student body. It is a huge huge law school. Should this really be a concern or has it really no negative impact.

I came from a very small school 1L year. There's pros and cons to a big school.

Pros:

-Don't have to worry about a lot of the petty HS drama... aka if you date a girl and things go bad, you ain't gonna see her all day every day.
-Everyone's business isn't your business.
-You can easily just come and go and do your work and not have to worry about all sorts of other crap.
-Lots of classes to pick from.
-Lots of unique classmates to interact with.
-Wider alumni network (see: con below for downside related to this).
-Wider variety of professors, both adjunct and full time.

Cons:

-Don't get to know "EVERYONE" at the school (not sure this is really a con).
-Social groups are a bit harder to form, but not if you get involved in student orgs/clinics/journals.
-Can just disappear into the crowd and become a number... profs won't notice if you are in class or not in larger classes (again, not sure this is really a con).
-Lots of graduates coming out of class you have to compete with (con to the alumni network noted above).

Overall, I think it being a bigger school vs. smaller school isn't a huge deal, but I def like the bigger school. I really liked not having to deal with all the BS HS-esque drama every day. That was so distracting at my old school. It's almost impossible to not get involved in it.

As a professor there is famous for saying... "Fast times at [mascot] high!"

[aca0260]

I've heard EA essentially doesn't take people with a B (ie in their first semester when applying). Truth?

[arigoldwannabe]

I've heard EA essentially doesn't take people with a B (ie in their first semester when applying). Truth?

I doubt they care about anything but class rank.

[jarofsoup]

Any news?

[crossarmant]

Any news?

None. TBF no one last year heard even got access to the admitted students page until the 20th-21st, letters didn't arrive until around the 26th, deferments didn't go out until like May 1st if I recall correctly. Pretty much the same story for 2010 too. That's cutting it very close for those of us who have GW acceptances with deposits due on the 30th.

[yabuddy]

Are the GULC deposits due at the end of May?

sorry if this has already been answered

[Lawst]

Any news?

None. TBF no one last year heard even got access to the admitted students page until the 20th-21st, letters didn't arrive until around the 26th, deferments didn't go out until like May 1st if I recall correctly. Pretty much the same story for 2010 too. That's cutting it very close for those of us who have GW acceptances with deposits due on the 30th.

I've already made peace with the idea that I'm giving GW $1K because I'm not going to hear anything else before April 30. If GULC lets me in, it'll be in RD. I think the only ones who get into GULC in EA are T1 and usually top 5%, maybe top 10%. At least, that's what last year's thread seemed to indicate. It seemed like the T2 apps were being used to prop up an uneven table leg until at least June.

ETA: At least the first wave of EA acceptances in late April all seemed to be T1, with another wave of acceptances in May that included some T2s.

[arigoldwannabe]

Ya it definitely looks like the end of next week will be the earliest we see movement.

Looking forward to being deferred....

[crossarmant]

Ya it definitely looks like the end of next week will be the earliest we see movement.

Looking forward to being deferred....

Agreed. I really do not have hope about an acceptance EA from them; GW is more than fine with me, I just hate the idea of losing $1000 in deposit money if I get into Georgetown during RD.

[canesfan1986]

I have had my hopes up on getting in EA. I still feel like I'll get in EA. I hope it's not wishful thinking.

[arigoldwannabe]

I have had my hopes up on getting in EA. I still feel like I'll get in EA. I hope it's not wishful thinking.

I feel like I am right on the edge. T1 top 6%.

I wouldn't be too surprised either way.

[lawschoolz67]

if i wrote onto a secondary journal (it's an official ABA publication), should i update my application before they send out early action decisions or does it look bad bc it's not the main journal?

[lawschoolz67]

if i wrote onto a secondary journal (it's an official ABA publication), should i update my application before they send out early action decisions or does it look bad bc it's not the main journal?

[3|ink]

if i wrote onto a secondary journal (it's an official ABA publication), should i update my application before they send out early action decisions or does it look bad bc it's not the main journal?

You can say that again