Help decide between transferring to NYU or Penn or staying Forum

[vanwinkle]

Also, Van Winkle is transferring from UVA to Harvard. I'm not sure he can credibly advise you to stay.

See, you're again ignoring the factors I'm talking about. I didn't make LR, and I don't have significant scholarship money to leave behind. If I had both of those things I would have stayed put. (This is exactly why I kept my transfer cycle private until it was over; I might have stayed if things went differently.) I can credibly advise people to do what I would've done if my own circumstances were similar.

The difference between Emory and Penn is not big enough to justify giving up LR and $$$. Transferring would likely be a costly mistake.

[Danteshek]

There will be enhanced networking opportunities at NYU or Penn. The degree will be more portable into NY or DC. Plus tranferring labels you as a go getter.

Reasonable people can disagree. But I think the poll indicates that the majority thinks you should transfer. I can also assure you that all the experienced attorneys who advised me to transfer would give you the same advice.

[dresden doll]

There will be enhanced networking opportunities at NYU or Penn. The degree will be more portable into NY or DC. Plus tranferring labels you as a go getter.

Reasonable people can disagree. But I think the poll indicates that the majority thinks you should transfer. I can also assure you that all the experienced attorneys who advised me to transfer would give you the same advice.

I find it somewhat humorous that you're accusing vanwinkle of a bias while potentially exhibiting a bias borne of your personal experience yourself.

Transferring from Southwestern - a school supposedly 'blacklisted' by local firms - to Loyola =/= transferring from top 25, which I assume isn't blacklisted, to Penn/NYU.

[vanwinkle]

I can also assure you that all the experienced attorneys who advised me to transfer would give you the same advice.

No they wouldn't, because unlike you, OP is already at a top-25 school, and being at the top of his class there has opportunities you never did at your T3.

OP shouldn't base his future on an online poll, he should place it on the best advice. Your situation isn't nearly as analogous to OP's as you think, and you haven't really articulated any strong reasons for transferring, just a strong belief that ranking is all that matters, when it isn't.

[run26.2]

Also, Van Winkle is transferring from UVA to Harvard. I'm not sure he can credibly advise you to stay.

See, you're again ignoring the factors I'm talking about. I didn't make LR, and I don't have significant scholarship money to leave behind. If I had both of those things I would have stayed put. (This is exactly why I kept my transfer cycle private until it was over; I might have stayed if things went differently.) I can credibly advise people to do what I would've done if my own circumstances were similar.

The difference between Emory and Penn is not big enough to justify giving up LR and $$$. Transferring would likely be a costly mistake.

Well I have interviews with 5 firms with offices in dc. I feel confident I could do better by going thru oci/eiw at Penn or NYU. Now at both schools, I will get interviews based on a lottery system, so there is no guarantee that the employers will give me a genuine look. But I think with wise bids, I can bid a little below the top firms because I am something of a wildcard.

Also, I can inidicate I was invited to join LR at Emory. I plan to try to write on at either school, and while I may not make LR, I think I have a decent shot at another journal, with probably slightly better odds at Penn.

[Oban]

Stay bro. You are like one of top 20 kids at Emory, you should be able to get a decent job in DC. Penn and NYU arent DC centric enough to give up LR and Scholly money for. If you want prestige move up, if you just want a DC job, stay. Maybe going to NYU/Penn will let you land NYC biglaw.

[dresden doll]

Well I have interviews with 5 firms with offices in dc. I feel confident I could do better by going thru oci/eiw at Penn or NYU. Now at both schools, I will get interviews based on a lottery system, so there is no guarantee that the employers will give me a genuine look. But I think with wise bids, I can bid a little below the top firms because I am something of a wildcard.

Also, I can inidicate I was invited to join LR at Emory. I plan to try to write on at either school, and while I may not make LR, I think I have a decent shot at another journal, with probably slightly better odds at Penn.

It sounds like your mind is made up, in which case there's no reason to debate the issue furhter. Best of luck to you.

[vanwinkle]

Also, I can inidicate I was invited to join LR at Emory. I plan to try to write on at either school, and while I may not make LR, I think I have a decent shot at another journal, with probably slightly better odds at Penn.

Employers don't care who was invited onto LR, so much as they care who's on LR. Putting you were invited onto LR at Emory won't help you that much.

You sound like you already want to transfer and want confirmation. In that case there are plenty of people who will give it to you. However, I won't be one of them, because I really think you're making a huge mistake.

You won't be treated like a top student at Penn or NYU. I was a top student at UVA, a peer school that places a lot of its students in DC, and I still didn't get that many preselects at DC firms during UVA OGI. (I bid before finding out I was transferring.) I got preselected at a few prominent NYC firms that also have DC offices, but designated an alternate or not picked at all for their DC offices. The DC market is really and truly competitive, and they know there that they can get the best students at top law schools.

Since you're already at a top law school, your only real shot at DC is maintaining your status as a top student. Trading it in to become an average student at a T14--a student without LR, or grades at that school at all--will probably actually sabotage your current slim but real chance at DC.

You should stay where you are, make the best of the interviews you have, and resume-bomb everywhere else in DC and Dallas you can. Either way your odds at DC are slim, but this way you'll have LR and being the best in your class as a selling point.

[run26.2]

Vanwinkle, the above is very helpful. Thank you. I will certainly keep it in mind.

[xyzbca]

I haven't fully looked into the study yet, but the following posting on the WSJ law blog caught my eye. While not necessarily conducted for the transfer student, this study seems interesting. I'm not expressing an opinion either way, but this makes interesting food for thought.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/07/30/new ... raight-as/

The consistent theme we find throughout this analysis is that performance in law school – as measured by law school grades – is the most important predictor of career success. It is decisively more important than law school “eliteness.” . . . Since the dominant conventional wisdom says that law school prestige is all‐important, and since students who “trade‐up” in school prestige generally take a hit to their school performance, we think prospective students are getting the wrong message.

As an illustrative hypothetical, imagine an average student (GPA 3.25‐3.5) at 47th ranked University of Florida. Using the fifth column from Table 11 (AJD regressions on salary), we can predict how her earnings would be affected under various counterfactuals. If she had attended 20th ranked George Washington University, her grades likely would have slipped to the 2.75‐3.0 range, and her salary would drop considerably (by 22%, all other factors held constant.) Even if she had managed to get a spot at 7th ranked UC Berkeley, where the tier premiums are highest, her grades likely would have fallen into the 2.5‐2.75 range, and her salary would be 7% lower. On the other hand, if she had attended 80th ranked Rutgers, she probably could have improved her grades to land in the 3.5‐3.75 range, and earned a 13% higher salary.

[run26.2]

Also, I can inidicate I was invited to join LR at Emory. I plan to try to write on at either school, and while I may not make LR, I think I have a decent shot at another journal, with probably slightly better odds at Penn.

Employers don't care who was invited onto LR, so much as they care who's on LR. Putting you were invited onto LR at Emory won't help you that much.

You sound like you already want to transfer and want confirmation. In that case there are plenty of people who will give it to you. However, I won't be one of them, because I really think you're making a huge mistake.

You won't be treated like a top student at Penn or NYU. I was a top student at UVA, a peer school that places a lot of its students in DC, and I still didn't get that many preselects at DC firms during UVA OGI. (I bid before finding out I was transferring.) I got preselected at a few prominent NYC firms that also have DC offices, but designated an alternate or not picked at all for their DC offices. The DC market is really and truly competitive, and they know there that they can get the best students at top law schools.

Since you're already at a top law school, your only real shot at DC is maintaining your status as a top student. Trading it in to become an average student at a T14--a student without LR, or grades at that school at all--will probably actually sabotage your current slim but real chance at DC.

You should stay where you are, make the best of the interviews you have, and resume-bomb everywhere else in DC and Dallas you can. Either way your odds at DC are slim, but this way you'll have LR and being the best in your class as a selling point.

Do you know how firms view a secondary journal?

The experience I have had talking to transfers was that the firms seemed to take very well to transfers, at least those from Emory with whom I spoke.

Is there some "line" either in the rankings or in your matrix of schools above which making such a jump would be worthwhile, e.g. Harvard? What about Columbia?

Also, the debt factor is less of an issue for me because my wife works and we actually can cut a lot in our lifestyle. Believe it or not, if we go up into Morningside heights or Brooklyn we can actually pay about the same rent as we pay now (I chose a fairly pricey apt in Atlanta) and increase our take home pay fairly substantially in NYC. I have tried to factor in other cost of living increases, like groceries, but I have a hard time knowing how much of an increase this will be.

I did not grade on to Journal, and I am top 15%. This is good, but is not really going to make employers say "Wow!" So I guess it really depends on how valuable employers think Law Review is as opposed to a secondary journal, which I believe I can probably get at NYU (or Penn).

What you have said is really giving me something to think about. Thanks for speaking about your experience.

Good luck at Harvard.

[buxfactor]

Emory's OCI has little to no DC firms - I think it had about 5 total. I don't see what the difficulty is here in terms of choices - I think you choose between NYU or Penn. Flip a coin. If you like Philly more, I think you go to Penn. If you like NYC more, then go to NYU. Staying at Emory, while it is an awesome school, will not provide you with the flexibility you need after you graduate, at least not in the DC or Dallas markets. If your goal were to stay in Atlanta, then Emory would be the best choice here.

I think the whole debt thing is overrated anyways - you'll be 120K more in debt, which isn't a big deal if you're looking to work for a firm anyways (which you might not get at Emory with a good ranking + LR).