What are your chances? I'll chance you Forum

[Vronsky]

Question: I’ve been calling around to a bunch of offices at my law school. Apparently the only financial aid that is offered for 2Ls and 3Ls requires an application, and that application was due in March. Does this sound right? I checked my email and ONE email was sent out about it.

So I guess I'm not getting any additional aid despite being in the top 7-10%. This is crap. Time to get serious about my transfer apps. Hopefully I can leave this TTTT.

I only know about this from my personal experience. My school gave a scholly boost to the top 10% which obviously wasn't notified until after spring grades. You should speak to someone with authority/decision making power, either Dean of students, the dean, or someone on the scholarship committee. Lay it all out there - tell them about your current scholarship, schools you've been accepted to as a transfer, and career goals. Ask for advice. Then, politely broach the subject of increasing your scholarshpi - talk about how finances are important, and part of your decision making process.

This is very helpful - thank you. I emailed the Dean of Students (who I am friendly with) about a Dean's Letter and stating my intent to transfer. I'll bring it up in our future conversations.

Eh, I would ease up on the "intent to transfer." You should try to frame it as an "intent to get advice about considering transfer." They won't offer you any scholarship if they think you are out the door - you must convey the point that you are very happy and would love to say, but that 'others' have recommended you look into transferring.

[doodledoctor]

Doodle:

What? That is so unethical I can't comprehend it. They kick you out of OCI for applying to transfer? You should raise hell about this. IMO, it's more of a motivation to transfer to avoid unethical asshats like that..... you probably never gone there in the first place if they have policies like that. It's one thing to be TTT in terms of LSAT and OCI placement, it's another to be TTT in terms of unethical polices. Threaten and write letters to the ABA, law school journals, USNews, every major newspaper, Above the law, etc etc.

--LinkRemoved--

It happens like this. If you release your grades and apply to a school, you become ineligible for phase 1 of OCI. After you get rejected (and presumably provide proof of this), you can ask to be reinstated for phase 1 OCI. If I apply to UCLA and USC, I potentially will not learn of acceptance till the beginning of phase 1 or after phase 1. Thus, I cannot be reinstated. This is somewhat of a well known policy at my school and Arrow touched up on this. However unethical this may be, it has been discussed in that article and perhaps I should have phrased it better.

[Vronsky]

Wow, that is nuts. Is Loyola the only school with this policy? If so, it just shows how ridiculous it is.

One thing you could do, is apply to transfer, and then if you haven't heard back, withdraw your apps on the last possible day to reinstate yourself. The worst case scenario is that you apply to transfer, don't get in, and miss out on phase 1 of OCI. Any other outcome - getting accepted, or being rejected before the deadilne - are preferrable to this.

Also, it might be prudent to contact the admissions offices at UCLA and USC. If you carefully and professionally explain your situation - not just on the phone to one person, but via email that is CCed to the dean of admissions, they might be understanding, and try to get you a decision before the deadline.

The main reason I advise caution is that if you are top 15%, you are somewhat out of the traditional top 10% window for transferring.

[sunynp]

Just do a mail campaign to the firms in advance of OCI and explain briefly why you are closed out of OCI but are interested in interviewing. If you are good enough to transfer you should get some interviews.

Doodle:

What? That is so unethical I can't comprehend it. They kick you out of OCI for applying to transfer? You should raise hell about this. IMO, it's more of a motivation to transfer to avoid unethical asshats like that..... you probably never gone there in the first place if they have policies like that. It's one thing to be TTT in terms of LSAT and OCI placement, it's another to be TTT in terms of unethical polices. Threaten and write letters to the ABA, law school journals, USNews, every major newspaper, Above the law, etc etc.

--LinkRemoved--

It happens like this. If you release your grades and apply to a school, you become ineligible for phase 1 of OCI. After you get rejected (and presumably provide proof of this), you can ask to be reinstated for phase 1 OCI. If I apply to UCLA and USC, I potentially will not learn of acceptance till the beginning of phase 1 or after phase 1. Thus, I cannot be reinstated. This is somewhat of a well known policy at my school and Arrow touched up on this. However unethical this may be, it has been discussed in that article and perhaps I should have phrased it better.

[Nevermindless]

Top 3%, TTT, deferred at GULC. Is it worthwhile to apply to other T14 schools? If so, which schools? I have no geographical ties.

[doodledoctor]

Wow, that is nuts. Is Loyola the only school with this policy? If so, it just shows how ridiculous it is.

One thing you could do, is apply to transfer, and then if you haven't heard back, withdraw your apps on the last possible day to reinstate yourself. The worst case scenario is that you apply to transfer, don't get in, and miss out on phase 1 of OCI. Any other outcome - getting accepted, or being rejected before the deadilne - are preferrable to this.

Also, it might be prudent to contact the admissions offices at UCLA and USC. If you carefully and professionally explain your situation - not just on the phone to one person, but via email that is CCed to the dean of admissions, they might be understanding, and try to get you a decision before the deadline.

The main reason I advise caution is that if you are top 15%, you are somewhat out of the traditional top 10% window for transferring.

I appreciate it. Thank you very much!

[Vronsky]

Top 3%, TTT, deferred at GULC. Is it worthwhile to apply to other T14 schools? If so, which schools? I have no geographical ties.

In what area is your TTT?

Also, there seems to be a misconception about the necessity of ties in order to transfer. It only applies in a few circumstances -namely, UVA, Stanford, Berkley, definitely Texas. But there is no need for "east coast ties" to go to HLS or CLS. They regularly take students from all over the country who have never lived nearby before.

Hold out hope for GULC. You might also want to consider BU, GW, Vandy, Emory, UCLA/USC depending on location.

[Nevermindless]

In what area is your TTT?

Also, there seems to be a misconception about the necessity of ties in order to transfer. It only applies in a few circumstances -namely, UVA, Stanford, Berkley, definitely Texas. But there is no need for "east coast ties" to go to HLS or CLS. They regularly take students from all over the country who have never lived nearby before.

Hold out hope for GULC. You might also want to consider BU, GW, Vandy, Emory, UCLA/USC depending on location.

There is only one TTT in my region. I am not in CA, VA, or the South, but you already knew that from my last sentence. Rank: 4/136, only booked one class. Those schools you mentioned are safeties or other reaches? If my goal were to shoot for something slightly more feasible than "the moon" would that be T14-T20? I know transferring is a black box, but where would you estimate the point of diminishing returns, i.e., applying would be futile? And returning to the theme of the thread, what are my chances at GULC RD?

[shock259]

Don't want to be selfish or spam, but wanted to see any remaining percentages/ideas/thoughts for my numbers:

T40-45
Top 7-10%
Mock trial
1 year WE

To:

Penn
Michigan
Northwestern
Cornell
UWash (safety).

GULC deadline is prob too soon for me to get an app in. Still waiting one a LOR.

[CanadianWolf]

You chances are very good at all of the listed schools, but why WUSTL ? Also, why Cornell (unless Cornell has recently changed it's transfer OCI policy) ?

P.S. As I understand your background & interests from prior posts, Harvard would be worth an application due to their relationship with the US military.

[crossarmant]

You chances are very good at all of the listed schools, but why WUSTL ? Also, why Cornell (unless Cornell has recently changed it's transfer OCI policy) ?

P.S. As I understand your background & interests from prior posts, Harvard would be worth an application due to their relationship with the US military.

As to Cornell, I sent an email to the adcomm asking about the specifics of locking out transfers from OCI, what they said is that it's not "closed" per se. However, the bidding deadline is July 11th and transfer applicants must be accepted and have deposited before the 11th to participate in the bidding process. When pressed about the real world feasibility of a transfer making it in that deadline (especially since application deadline is like the 14/15th of July), I got a vague response pretty much saying "Send us your app and money, and we'll see what we can do."

[shock259]

Thanks for the responses!

I didn't think I had a chance at Harvard. I will definitely throw an app in there.

I'm not sure why I picked Cornell. It's in the T14? Haha. It is stupidly expensive. I don't think I'd actually go if accepted. I'll drop that.

UW(Seattle one) is a safety. I'm not totally sure I want to leave my current school. Lot of ties to the area. But I'm paying too much for it right now (imo) and I want to have some leverage for my scholarship negotiation. I'm afraid I'll get totally shut out of the other schools listed. If that happens, I'll lose my negotiating position. Thus, UWash.

[Vronsky]

Don't want to be selfish or spam, but wanted to see any remaining percentages/ideas/thoughts for my numbers:

T40-45
Top 7-10%
Mock trial
1 year WE

To:

Penn
Michigan
Northwestern
Cornell
UWash (safety).

GULC deadline is prob too soon for me to get an app in. Still waiting one a LOR.

I don't know that Harvard is very realistic despite military, it would be if you were higher up maybe top 5%. You're probably better off in the CCNMVPB range.

[CanadianWolf]

Sorry, I misread UWash as WashU. In my opinion, it would be foolish not to try for Harvard. Although a reach, let Harvard make the decision. Seems like Duke would be a realistic option.

[crossarmant]

I'll throw my hat in.

School: TT in the 80-100 range
Rank: ~10% for the year (We don't rank, based on 5% cut-offs and the TLS Class Estimator)

EA acceptances to WUSTL & GW

Applications:
Vanderbilt
GULC - EA Deferred (Hopeful, from VA and have ties to DC)
Northwestern
Duke (Entire maternal family lives in NC)

Probably throwing in some hail marys to UVA (VA resident) and UMich.

Anywhere else in the T20 seem sensible to apply to? Not interested in Texas or California.

[Vronsky]

I'll throw my hat in.

School: TT in the 80-100 range
Rank: ~10% for the year (We don't rank, based on 5% cut-offs and the TLS Class Estimator)

EA acceptances to WUSTL & GW

Applications:
Vanderbilt
GULC - EA Deferred (Hopeful, from VA and have ties to DC)
Northwestern
Duke (Entire maternal family lives in NC)

Probably throwing in some hail marys to UVA (VA resident) and UMich.

Anywhere else in the T20 seem sensible to apply to? Not interested in Texas or California.

BU and Emory are other options worth considering. Not having a rank may hurt you - one school of thought says that AdComms regularly get apps from schools that don't rank and know how to estimate, but the other school of though is that its a slight handicap if they know a similar candidates exact rank but don't know for you.

[crossarmant]

I'll throw my hat in.

School: TT in the 80-100 range
Rank: ~10% for the year (We don't rank, based on 5% cut-offs and the TLS Class Estimator)

EA acceptances to WUSTL & GW

Applications:
Vanderbilt
GULC - EA Deferred (Hopeful, from VA and have ties to DC)
Northwestern
Duke (Entire maternal family lives in NC)

Probably throwing in some hail marys to UVA (VA resident) and UMich.

Anywhere else in the T20 seem sensible to apply to? Not interested in Texas or California.

BU and Emory are other options worth considering. Not having a rank may hurt you - one school of thought says that AdComms regularly get apps from schools that don't rank and know how to estimate, but the other school of though is that its a slight handicap if they know a similar candidates exact rank but don't know for you.

Thanks, I was thinking about BU, but I figured that employment stats from there seem to be slightly worse than GW across the board.

Any guess, like a numerical percentage, for the ones I listed?

[Vronsky]

I'll throw my hat in.

School: TT in the 80-100 range
Rank: ~10% for the year (We don't rank, based on 5% cut-offs and the TLS Class Estimator)

EA acceptances to WUSTL & GW

Applications:
Vanderbilt
GULC - EA Deferred (Hopeful, from VA and have ties to DC)
Northwestern
Duke (Entire maternal family lives in NC)

Probably throwing in some hail marys to UVA (VA resident) and UMich.

Anywhere else in the T20 seem sensible to apply to? Not interested in Texas or California.

BU and Emory are other options worth considering. Not having a rank may hurt you - one school of thought says that AdComms regularly get apps from schools that don't rank and know how to estimate, but the other school of though is that its a slight handicap if they know a similar candidates exact rank but don't know for you.

Thanks, I was thinking about BU, but I figured that employment stats from there seem to be slightly worse than GW across the board.

Any guess, like a numerical percentage, for the ones I listed?

I don't really know much about GW vs. BU for employment, but I would imagine alot has to do with Boston/NYC vs. DC.

GULC - 30%
Vandy - 40
UVA - 10
Duke - 40
NW - WE? If not, 10; if so, 25

[crossarmant]

I don't really know much about GW vs. BU for employment, but I would imagine alot has to do with Boston/NYC vs. DC.

GULC - 30%
Vandy - 40
UVA - 10
Duke - 40
NW - WE? If not, 10; if so, 25

Thanks, I do have WE; 2 years worth of legal exp. before LS. Hopefully that'll help.

[anonymouz]

Top 30 law school. Top 5% of class. On a journal as a 1L and authored a series of blog posts on the financial crisis. Have a masters degree and 4 years of post-graduate managerial experience. Research Assistant to Vice-Dean. Legal Writing TA.

Would like to do NYC BigLaw but have a degree from a school with a national reputation so I can go back to Cali at some point.

Applying to top 6
Harvard
Stanford
Yale
Columbia
NYU
Chicago

Would also consider:
Berkeley/UVA/Penn

I would say you are competitive, although not likely, at H and S. More realistic targets include CCNBP. You can probably avoid UVA unless you are VA resident. Penn doesn't have great reach out west, but obviously Berkley would.

So I just got my final grade back and I bombed the class. It dragged my entire GPA down. I'm now at 10%. Please re-chance me.

[FlanSolo]

Vronsky - you seem to be quite pessimistic about those without ties transferring to UVA. I know the school has that reputation for 0L applications, but what makes you so sure they place such an emphasis for transfer applications? Is this there any evidence for such a strong bias?

[Vronsky]

Vronsky - you seem to be quite pessimistic about those without ties transferring to UVA. I know the school has that reputation for 0L applications, but what makes you so sure they place such an emphasis for transfer applications? Is this there any evidence for such a strong bias?

(1) they take very few overall, and (2) they do seem to prefer VA residents even as transfers. Also, it's not 'ties,' it's 'VA Residents' - the state legislature requires that a certain percentage of the school go to educating residents of the commonwealth. I HAD ties - went there for UG.

My rejection letter from last year:

We have carefully reviewed your application for transfer admission to the University of Virginia School of Law. I regret to inform you that we are unable to offer you a place in the transfer class. With 200 applications and only 10 seats in the transfer class, we were faced with many difficult choices and ultimately were unable to offer admission to a number of superbly qualified applicants.

[FlanSolo]

Vronsky - you seem to be quite pessimistic about those without ties transferring to UVA. I know the school has that reputation for 0L applications, but what makes you so sure they place such an emphasis for transfer applications? Is this there any evidence for such a strong bias?

(1) they take very few overall, and (2) they do seem to prefer VA residents even as transfers.

My rejection letter from last year:

We have carefully reviewed your application for transfer admission to the University of Virginia School of Law. I regret to inform you that we are unable to offer you a place in the transfer class. With 200 applications and only 10 seats in the transfer class, we were faced with many difficult choices and ultimately were unable to offer admission to a number of superbly qualified applicants.

Yikes. Fair enough!

[Vronsky]

Top 30 law school. Top 5% of class. On a journal as a 1L and authored a series of blog posts on the financial crisis. Have a masters degree and 4 years of post-graduate managerial experience. Research Assistant to Vice-Dean. Legal Writing TA.

Would like to do NYC BigLaw but have a degree from a school with a national reputation so I can go back to Cali at some point.

Applying to top 6
Harvard
Stanford
Yale
Columbia
NYU
Chicago

Would also consider:
Berkeley/UVA/Penn

I would say you are competitive, although not likely, at H and S. More realistic targets include CCNBP. You can probably avoid UVA unless you are VA resident. Penn doesn't have great reach out west, but obviously Berkley would.

So I just got my final grade back and I bombed the class. It dragged my entire GPA down. I'm now at 10%. Please re-chance me.

It knocks you down a bit, but you're still looking at CNMPB, maybe GULC? at that point, it's probably not worth it for you to transfer. Go big or go home is the general strategy, because you're giving up a top ranking and hopefully LR and scholarship at a pretty decent T1 school.

[FlanSolo]

Vronsky - Sorry if this posted elsewhere in the thread, but what was your story?