Transferring into the t14, OCI, career prospects.. [UPDATED] Forum

[bradley]

Delete

[apper123]

UPDATE—

STATS:
-Top 5-10% at a t10, and 1 publication.

-Worked at a small shitlaw firm this last summer (no permanent offer – but I knew that this wasn’t going to be a possibility going in, and it doesn’t matter considering associates start at $37K /year and work something like 70 hours a week to make the 2100 billable hours requirement).

APPLIED to:
-550 state court clerkships (they are all state supreme or appellate courts)

-3000 law firms across 25 states, including the large majority of the NALP law firms

RECEIVED:
-2 state court clerkship interviews in out in the middle of nowhere states. I really have no desire to end up in either of these states. I just applied because I figured I didn’t have much to lose, but now that I think about it, there’s really no way it is going to be worth it to clerk in either of these states (because I’d rather not practice law at all than to end up at either of these states on a permanent basis). I might just cancel these interviews.

-1 SMALL shitlaw firm interview (which told me that they will not know what there hiring needs are until spring and that they will not be making any offers until then).

REJECTED:
-Basically everywhere else that I’ve heard back from. It’s ridiculous my snail mailbox is completely filled on a daily basis now with rejection letters, and I get like 80 emails a day with rejections from law firms.

CONCLUDING THOUGHTS:
I seriously think I would just drop out at this point if I weren’t already so deep in debt where it really makes no difference. What a waste of money and time college, in general, is. I think I’m at peace with the fact that I probably won’t ever get to practice law (as a career anyways), and am looking at going back to the “DMV” (hopefully they will hire me back after this whole escapade). But if I ever have kids I sure as hell won’t be pushing them to go to college (like my parent’s did with me) because it seriously is such as waste of time and a shitload of money that you don’t have. Sure things might work out for you when things are good, but there’s really no way to know that things will be good in X year and it’s really not worth it when things are bad (because you won’t be in any better of a place as a result of it).

lol

I wish I could laugh. I also wish it was just a flame.

it's not a flame? i mean his username (a reference to jdunderground... home of the flames) + the extreme tone of his post led me to believe he is. then again im not familiar with this user. is he a confirmed real dude facing a hard time? if so, then im sorry.

i just dont think his results have to be the norm, though. if all true and not a flame, then just very hard luck, and i am sorry for laughing.

[stinger35]

He seemed pretty adamant that he was not a flame when he started this thread back in the winter. He has also stayed consistent throughout.

God I would be so happy if he was one though. One less thing to add stress

[270910]

He seemed pretty adamant that he was not a flame when he started this thread back in the winter. He has also stayed consistent throughout.

God I would be so happy if he was one though. One less thing to add stress

If he isn't a flame, he's bad enough at life that it shouldn't really matter. Credentials like his don't keep you out of jobs, but personalities can.

[stinger35]

He seemed pretty adamant that he was not a flame when he started this thread back in the winter. He has also stayed consistent throughout.

God I would be so happy if he was one though. One less thing to add stress

If he isn't a flame, he's bad enough at life that it shouldn't really matter. Credentials like his don't keep you out of jobs, but personalities can.

Yea you guys are probably right (i hope). Although I'm not in person, I get pretty gullible on TLS.

[12262010]

you can't properly apply to 3,550 jobs.

[t14underground]

On a more positive note, I spoke with a transfer to MVBP a few weeks ago who came from a T40-50. He said that he got 26 interviews between mailing cover letters and OCI (23 from OCI). And from those, he got 6 call backs and 2 offers. He mentioned that most of the other transfers had similar results. Also, he said that he loved his new school and classmates and doesn't regret the transfer or extra debt one bit. This got me stoked about my upcoming transfer.

Yea, I'm sorry to hear how things worked out for you, t14underground, but everything that I have heard from current and past transfers runs counter to your experience. A good friend of mine who transferred to CLS has 27 interviews at OCI this year. At the t6 I am transferring too, OCS told me that transfers typically outperform the rest of the class, and to expect 20-25 interviews. NYassociate on the legal employment boards has said over and over that transfers are NOT looked on as median or below, but typically as top students (though of course not the very top) at their new school. Obviously I have not gone through OCI as a transfer yet, but I have every reason to anticipate that transferring will turn out to have been the correct decision.

What t14 are you? I know at NYU/CLS, 70% of people last year (the worst year ever) got jobs through OCI, and I know that at NYU, the number for transfers was slightly higher. If your school had a 70% strike out rate for transfers, what was the offer rate for actual students? Maybe your school was just getting especially slammed (GULC)?

I'm at MVPB. The school has numbers but hasn't released them (and probably won't).

I did especially shitty in terms of numbers of interviews. There were transfers that got 23 interviews out of OCI last year, but it seemed to be a complete crapshoot (basically it all depended on how you did in the lottery since all the firms that weren't v15ish type firms were oversubscribed).

[t14underground]

UPDATE—

STATS:
-Top 5-10% at a t10, and 1 publication.

-Worked at a small shitlaw firm this last summer (no permanent offer – but I knew that this wasn’t going to be a possibility going in, and it doesn’t matter considering associates start at $37K /year and work something like 70 hours a week to make the 2100 billable hours requirement).

APPLIED to:
-550 state court clerkships (they are all state supreme or appellate courts)

-3000 law firms across 25 states, including the large majority of the NALP law firms

RECEIVED:
-2 state court clerkship interviews in out in the middle of nowhere states. I really have no desire to end up in either of these states. I just applied because I figured I didn’t have much to lose, but now that I think about it, there’s really no way it is going to be worth it to clerk in either of these states (because I’d rather not practice law at all than to end up at either of these states on a permanent basis). I might just cancel these interviews.

-1 SMALL shitlaw firm interview (which told me that they will not know what there hiring needs are until spring and that they will not be making any offers until then).

REJECTED:
-Basically everywhere else that I’ve heard back from. It’s ridiculous my snail mailbox is completely filled on a daily basis now with rejection letters, and I get like 80 emails a day with rejections from law firms.

CONCLUDING THOUGHTS:
I seriously think I would just drop out at this point if I weren’t already so deep in debt where it really makes no difference. What a waste of money and time college, in general, is. I think I’m at peace with the fact that I probably won’t ever get to practice law (as a career anyways), and am looking at going back to the “DMV” (hopefully they will hire me back after this whole escapade). But if I ever have kids I sure as hell won’t be pushing them to go to college (like my parent’s did with me) because it seriously is such as waste of time and a shitload of money that you don’t have. Sure things might work out for you when things are good, but there’s really no way to know that things will be good in X year and it’s really not worth it when things are bad (because you won’t be in any better of a place as a result of it).

What? You applied to that many firms this summer? I call flame. Why didn't you apply to federal clerkships? With those grades, state court judges might not be interviewing you because they assume it would be a waste of time. Also, a lot of state court judges haven't even thought about hiring clerks yet.

Because OSCAR doesn't release applications for 3Ls until after labor day. I am applying to federal clerkships. I'm not particularly optimistic about it though because I'm not on law review (or any journal for that matter), and federal clerkships are incredibly competitive nowadays -- there was something like 400,000 applications last year for 1,200 spots!

[t14underground]

He seemed pretty adamant that he was not a flame when he started this thread back in the winter. He has also stayed consistent throughout.

God I would be so happy if he was one though. One less thing to add stress

If he isn't a flame, he's bad enough at life that it shouldn't really matter. Credentials like his don't keep you out of jobs, but personalities can.

You've got a real great personality. I'm sure you'll do great at OCI!

In all honesty, I would gladly concede that it's just my personality that's keeping me from finding a job. But how the fuck can employers tell that simply based on a resume and cover letter (which were both made as clean and played up as possible with by the CSO here)? I mean it would be one thing if I had a bunch of interviews and just didn't find anything. But the fact of the matter is that I am not even getting to the interview stage.

EDIT-
I should note, however, that I haven't been rejected by nearly every single employer I applied to yet. I just haven't gotten many interviews (i.e. I got 3) and I am getting a ton of rejection letters/emails.

[t14underground]

you can't properly apply to 3,550 jobs.

Mail merge is a great thing. Although, admittedly, I did send out generic cover letters (i.e. "dear hiring partner" type salutations) to the smaller law firms because it is impossible to figure out who to send a letter to at a lot of these firms and most of them aren't hiring anyways where it felt like it would have just been a huge waste of time to include proper salutations and address blocks.

[vyelps]

If I read the thread correctly, OP didn't do a law-oriented job after 1L, which may be the true source of a lot of his troubles.

[vyelps]

Everyone worked last summer doing something legal related except me.

[/quote]
This is what I mean. If OP isn't a flame, then I think that the issue may be the resume. Having a gpa from a low ranked school in addition to having 0 legal experience is what may have precipitated the initial hiring problems going into 2L OCI.

[t14underground]

If I read the thread correctly, OP didn't do a law-oriented job after 1L, which may be the true source of a lot of his troubles.

Not necessarily true. It obviously hurt to not have worked my 1L summer, but I definitely don't think that a legal job would've necessarily made a difference (it might have, but not necessarily). Pretty much all the other transfers here did work there 1L summer, they all did spectacular there 1L year (you basically have to in order to transfer here); yet, I want to say something like 70% of transfers struck out of getting any type of paying legal employment this last summer (based on the number of people who are still here and the number of people who I know did something unpaid elsewhere). The URMs and LBGT transfers did pretty well though (I don't think there was anyone in that group that didn't get a law firm job this summer).

What I think would have made a huge difference would have been if I had gotten twice the screening interviews (like some people did).

[t14underground]

Everyone worked last summer doing something legal related except me.

This is what I mean. If OP isn't a flame, then I think that the issue may be the resume. Having a gpa from a low ranked school in addition to having 0 legal experience is what may have precipitated the initial hiring problems going into 2L OCI.

Read my next post

EDIT-
The thing that bothers me now isn't necessarily that I didn't get an offer out of 2L OCI, but that my options are this shitty even after working last year (during school), and working a law firm this last summer (albeit shitlaw, it was still experience and probably more substantive experience than I would have gotten at a large law firm). I'd be perfectly happy with some $70K /year job in the city I want to be in (which I don't think is that much to ask for after leaving a t10 law school with decent grades). I'm just mad that I can't even get that, which the CSO materials (that came with my acceptance letter) purports that 98% of the 2008 class that went into private practice got into law firms of 50 or larger (which would all pay at least $70K /year). Then there's the bullshit about how this law school opens all these doors and all the great shit that grads from here have done. I really find it hard to believe at this point with how badly my job search has gone so far.

[vyelps]

I did. Doesn't change the substance of my post though. I know transfers with lower grades than yours who got great 2L SAs at major NYC and Chicago firms. I'm also sure we go to the same school. I empathize with your situation but I think the work experience coupled with the grades from a low ranked school is what did you in. Think about it this way- you go into an interview and couldn't talk about what you did that summer in a way that was compelling to a legal employer. The only thing they could evaluate on was grades from a school that is well below their target range.

[12262010]

you can't properly apply to 3,550 jobs.

Mail merge is a great thing. Although, admittedly, I did send out generic cover letters (i.e. "dear hiring partner" type salutations) to the smaller law firms because it is impossible to figure out who to send a letter to at a lot of these firms and most of them aren't hiring anyways where it felt like it would have just been a huge waste of time to include proper salutations and address blocks.

thanks for supporting my point.

[12262010]

If I read the thread correctly, OP didn't do a law-oriented job after 1L, which may be the true source of a lot of his troubles.

Not necessarily true. It obviously hurt to not have worked my 1L summer, but I definitely don't think that a legal job would've necessarily made a difference (it might have, but not necessarily). Pretty much all the other transfers here did work there 1L summer, they all did spectacular there 1L year (you basically have to in order to transfer here); yet, I want to say something like 70% of transfers struck out of getting any type of paying legal employment this last summer (based on the number of people who are still here and the number of people who I know did something unpaid elsewhere). The URMs and LBGT transfers did pretty well though (I don't think there was anyone in that group that didn't get a law firm job this summer).

What I think would have made a huge difference would have been if I had gotten twice the screening interviews (like some people did).

FLAME

[ToTransferOrNot]

If I read the thread correctly, OP didn't do a law-oriented job after 1L, which may be the true source of a lot of his troubles.

Not necessarily true. It obviously hurt to not have worked my 1L summer, but I definitely don't think that a legal job would've necessarily made a difference (it might have, but not necessarily). Pretty much all the other transfers here did work there 1L summer, they all did spectacular there 1L year (you basically have to in order to transfer here); yet, I want to say something like 70% of transfers struck out of getting any type of paying legal employment this last summer (based on the number of people who are still here and the number of people who I know did something unpaid elsewhere). The URMs and LBGT transfers did pretty well though (I don't think there was anyone in that group that didn't get a law firm job this summer).

What I think would have made a huge difference would have been if I had gotten twice the screening interviews (like some people did).

FLAME

Not necessarily. Transfers got murdered at a lot of places last year-and, of the transfers who did get jobs at UChicago, several of us were REALLY lucky (1 callback, 1 offer after being on the firm's waiting list for awhile type of situations).

I'm not the T14underground guy, but yeah. Might be a flame, might not be--not working a legal job after 1L was fucking retarded on this guy's part, though.

[aPosseAdEsse]

If I read the thread correctly, OP didn't do a law-oriented job after 1L, which may be the true source of a lot of his troubles.

Not necessarily true. It obviously hurt to not have worked my 1L summer, but I definitely don't think that a legal job would've necessarily made a difference (it might have, but not necessarily). Pretty much all the other transfers here did work there 1L summer, they all did spectacular there 1L year (you basically have to in order to transfer here); yet, I want to say something like 70% of transfers struck out of getting any type of paying legal employment this last summer (based on the number of people who are still here and the number of people who I know did something unpaid elsewhere). The URMs and LBGT transfers did pretty well though (I don't think there was anyone in that group that didn't get a law firm job this summer).

What I think would have made a huge difference would have been if I had gotten twice the screening interviews (like some people did).

FLAME

Not necessarily. Transfers got murdered at a lot of places last year-and, of the transfers who did get jobs at UChicago, several of us were REALLY lucky (1 callback, 1 offer after being on the firm's waiting list for awhile type of situations).

I'm not the T14underground guy, but yeah. Might be a flame, might not be--not working a legal job after 1L was fucking retarded on this guy's part, though.

booyakasha was pointing out the misuse of "there" vs "their." I think to insinuate that "if he can't spell, how is he top10% at a T10?" I'm not sure that's a great accusation, however.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Ah--I didn't see the bolded before. Whoops.

[rynabrius]

Thanks for bumping this thread. After reading it, I added about 10 more bids and puked in my mouth a little.

[t14underground]

If I read the thread correctly, OP didn't do a law-oriented job after 1L, which may be the true source of a lot of his troubles.

Not necessarily true. It obviously hurt to not have worked my 1L summer, but I definitely don't think that a legal job would've necessarily made a difference (it might have, but not necessarily). Pretty much all the other transfers here did work there 1L summer, they all did spectacular there 1L year (you basically have to in order to transfer here); yet, I want to say something like 70% of transfers struck out of getting any type of paying legal employment this last summer (based on the number of people who are still here and the number of people who I know did something unpaid elsewhere). The URMs and LBGT transfers did pretty well though (I don't think there was anyone in that group that didn't get a law firm job this summer).

What I think would have made a huge difference would have been if I had gotten twice the screening interviews (like some people did).

FLAME

Sorry I was in a hurry and didn't have time to proofread something that I'm posting anonymously on a message board, and that it was apparently ambiguous enough that you couldn't understand what I was saying. Do you really have nothing better to do than to check anonymous people's posts for grammar and spelling on a Saturday night? If so, I feel bad for you... You really got to realize there's a difference between turning in a brief to a court that is filled with typos and grammatical errors and writing something on a open message board (and that not everything you write needs to be perfect -- do you really sit there and proofread you exams before for grammar and spelling errors before you turn them in?!?)

[vyelps]

do you really sit there and proofread you exams before for grammar and spelling errors before you turn them in?!?)

Yes, I do. Profs do not appreciate error filled answers. When a professor has to read 100+ exams, they appreciate the rare exam that not only has great analysis but is also easy to read. When an exam is filled with typos, a prof has less incentive to read it closely and therefore may ignore what you have written. Also, poor grammar makes it hard to understand your main point. In field where good language is central to success, ignoring grammar or spelling on a final makes no sense.

That being said, if you don't have time on an exam to get to grammar or spelling, then its wise to ignore it. I've never been on a final where I didn't have at least 4-5 minutes to quickly read over my answers to get glaring errors.

[t14underground]

If I read the thread correctly, OP didn't do a law-oriented job after 1L, which may be the true source of a lot of his troubles.

Not necessarily true. It obviously hurt to not have worked my 1L summer, but I definitely don't think that a legal job would've necessarily made a difference (it might have, but not necessarily). Pretty much all the other transfers here did work there 1L summer, they all did spectacular there 1L year (you basically have to in order to transfer here); yet, I want to say something like 70% of transfers struck out of getting any type of paying legal employment this last summer (based on the number of people who are still here and the number of people who I know did something unpaid elsewhere). The URMs and LBGT transfers did pretty well though (I don't think there was anyone in that group that didn't get a law firm job this summer).

What I think would have made a huge difference would have been if I had gotten twice the screening interviews (like some people did).

FLAME

I'm not the T14underground guy, but yeah. Might be a flame, might not be--not working a legal job after 1L was fucking retarded on this guy's part, though.

Prior to editing my first post I openly admitted that not working was a mistake and told people to work there 1L summer. However, it really was a "you're fucked if you do and you're fucked if you don't" type of thing for me being that I wouldn't have had enough credits to transfer if I didn't take a full class load my 1st summer. I guess I was screwed from the very beginning, but in all honesty there was no way I could have predicted this shit. I started law school the same time as you -- fall of 2008. Things weren't this bad then. While not working your 1L summer was always a bad idea, it wasn't always death sentence, and even in the class of 2010 there were people who didn't work there 1L summer (at least not anything legal) and still managed to get offers out of OCI (albeit probably not good of offers as if they had worked their 1L summer). It really was tough, if not impossible, to predict that this would be what I would be walking into in a couple years ago (I mean I made my decision based on class of 2007 stats because there wasn't anything better or more recent at that time). In all honesty, if I had known this was going to be how things would be 7 years ago, I don't think I would have even bothered with going to college at all.

Not necessarily. Transfers got murdered at a lot of places last year-and, of the transfers who did get jobs at UChicago, several of us were REALLY lucky (1 callback, 1 offer after being on the firm's waiting list for awhile type of situations).

See this is the type of stuff that makes me question whether I necessarily would have gotten something out of OCI even if I had worked my 1st summer. I had the same number of callbacks as you but, if I recall correctly, you worked for a federal judge your 1st summer, transferred to a t6, and are on a secondary journal. I don't deny that not working my 1st summer hurt me, but I still don't think that I for sure would have gotten something if I had worked my 1L summer (after all we had the same number of callbacks, and the only real difference between us in terms of OCI is that you were lucky enough to have gotten an offer where I wasn't). Then again, it might have made the difference (who knows, even getting one more screening interview might have made a difference -- it's all just speculation at this point).

[t14underground]

do you really sit there and proofread you exams before for grammar and spelling errors before you turn them in?!?)

Yes, I do. Profs do not appreciate error filled answers. When a professor has to read 100+ exams, they appreciate the rare exam that not only has great analysis but is also easy to read. When an exam is filled with typos, a prof has less incentive to read it closely and therefore may ignore what you have written. Also, poor grammar makes it hard to understand your main point. In field where good language is central to success, ignoring grammar or spelling on a final makes no sense.

That being said, if you don't have time on an exam to get to grammar or spelling, then its wise to ignore it. I've never been on a final where I didn't have at least 4-5 minutes to quickly read over my answers to get glaring errors.

Well that's different then sitting there and re-reading everything to ensure you didn't accidentally say "there" when you meant "their." I even do what you described with spending a few minutes going through things.

Also, why are you alting (you responded to my quote of booyakasha with this username)?