Transferred T2 to HYS, taking questions Forum

[Wholigan]

I apologize if this was already asked, but what can you say about the undergrad prestige of your transfer class? I am getting the sense that transfer applications are much more "holistic" than the regular application cycle and I wonder how much stock they put into having attended an elite undergrad?

I'm not sure any of this is true.

Maybe... but how else would you explain the seemingly well-documented "randomness" of the transfer cycle, e.g. people regularly getting accepted at higher ranked schools and rejected at lower ones? Don't you think they are putting more emphasis on softs than we are used to with the regular cycle? Or are they just throwing darts?

I think these are the primary reasons based on things I've read in the past:
1) Raw GPA's. Some people are in the top 5% with a 3.5 and some people are in the top 10% with a 3.8. There seems to be a pure advantage to have a high numerical GPA, especially when a number of schools don't really rank or have confusing ranking systems or cut-offs.

2) Location. T14's have certain "feeder" schools and are more likely to take someone from the area then outside of the area. Also, if a school has taken other transfers from your school, it's usually a plus.

3) The PS sales job. They don't just want to know why you want to go to transfer, they want to know why you specifically want to transfer to their school, and moreso, what can you bring that they don't already have.

4) When you apply. Like in the regular application cycle, the earlier, the better.

I'm guessing they put very little emphasis on UG, WE, etc.

Interesting. I haven't seen the raw GPA theory before, but it seems reasonable. Vanwinkle strongly believes H is looking for WE in their transfers, and I'm sure I have seen some banter somewhere about the same for NU, just like with their first year cycle. I was hoping that would help me elsewhere, since one of those I'm not too interested in and the other is an extraordinary reach.

[leppotse]

I apologize if this has already been answered, but what is the reasonable cut off for a transfer app to H from a T2? (I say H b/c it offers better odds than Y or S.)

IIRC, OP mentioned that s/he was either #1 in the class or very, very close. Would it still be worth it for a T2 student, within, say, the top 10 students (i.e. top 2-3%)? I'm already applying to a number of T4-14 schools, but also thinking about applying to H if just for a lil bit of extra motivation going into finals season. If you need more specifics, let me know and I shall provide.

Yes, it would be worth it, but it's probably not going to be greater than a 25% chance, at best. Just remember that you need to decide to apply to H early on, because their law review write-on procedure for transfers is early (in May). There's really no downside to applying, though.

[leppotse]

...

For what it's worth, I think schools do pay more attention to soft factors in evaluating transfer applicants. Far more people have the numbers (i.e., class rank) than can be accommodated, so it makes sense that admissions officers would look for other criteria. Undergrad performance and prestige are likely to be a small part of that package, and work experience probably a larger part. Strong recommendations and a focused, persuasive PS are more important still. Not to be trite, but your numbers will buy you into the game, but you'll still have to play well.

[leppotse]

OP is living the dream at Stanford. I know this b/c he seems too helpful/unpretentious to be from either Y or H.

[leppotse]

I'll be around to take more questions today, although yesterday didn't yield much until after I left.

[concurrent fork]

Just remember that you need to decide to apply to H early on, because their law review write-on procedure for transfers is early (in May).

I actually wouldn't worry too much about this. I don't think any transfers made LR this year, and the write-on overlaps with the 1L exam period at a lot of schools anyway.

[leppotse]

Just remember that you need to decide to apply to H early on, because their law review write-on procedure for transfers is early (in May).

I actually wouldn't worry too much about this. I don't think any transfers made LR this year, and the write-on overlaps with the 1L exam period at a lot of schools anyway.

The info is appreciated! That said, many transfers do take LR availability at a target school seriously because they're generally giving it up at their 1L school. Harvard's approach to this part of the process is idiosyncratic, so I think it's worth mentioning.

As an aside, do you know whether it's generally the case that transfers have so much trouble getting on HLR, or do you think this year might be an aberration? It's definitely not the case with either YLJ or SLR (at least, in my observation).

[Vronsky]

I apologize if this has already been answered, but what is the reasonable cut off for a transfer app to H from a T2? (I say H b/c it offers better odds than Y or S.)

IIRC, OP mentioned that s/he was either #1 in the class or very, very close. Would it still be worth it for a T2 student, within, say, the top 10 students (i.e. top 2-3%)? I'm already applying to a number of T4-14 schools, but also thinking about applying to H if just for a lil bit of extra motivation going into finals season. If you need more specifics, let me know and I shall provide.

Yes, it would be worth it, but it's probably not going to be greater than a 25% chance, at best. Just remember that you need to decide to apply to H early on, because their law review write-on procedure for transfers is early (in May). There's really no downside to applying, though.

I was actually planning on participating in the GULC LR competition for transfers, figuring that I have should get accepted there so it should be worth it. If I'm unlikely to get accepted to a school such as H or CN, what's the point of going through a week long competition? And BTW who needs LR at H? OP obviously didn't.

Side note - it would be an interesting dilemma to choose b/t GULC w/LR vs. a T6 school w/o LR.

Also, any comment on the weight of CALIs/Course awards (for each section)? At my school, an A+ (usually only 1 given in each course) is calculated in GPA as a regular 4.0. Yet I imagine that they should be really beneficial, so trying to rack up a few more this semester.

[leppotse]

I apologize if this has already been answered, but what is the reasonable cut off for a transfer app to H from a T2? (I say H b/c it offers better odds than Y or S.)

IIRC, OP mentioned that s/he was either #1 in the class or very, very close. Would it still be worth it for a T2 student, within, say, the top 10 students (i.e. top 2-3%)? I'm already applying to a number of T4-14 schools, but also thinking about applying to H if just for a lil bit of extra motivation going into finals season. If you need more specifics, let me know and I shall provide.

Yes, it would be worth it, but it's probably not going to be greater than a 25% chance, at best. Just remember that you need to decide to apply to H early on, because their law review write-on procedure for transfers is early (in May). There's really no downside to applying, though.

I was actually planning on participating in the GULC LR competition for transfers, figuring that I have should get accepted there so it should be worth it. If I'm unlikely to get accepted to a school such as H or CN, what's the point of going through a week long competition? And BTW who needs LR at H? OP obviously didn't.

Side note - it would be an interesting dilemma to choose b/t GULC w/LR vs. a T6 school w/o LR.

Also, any comment on the weight of CALIs/Course awards (for each section)? At my school, an A+ (usually only 1 given in each course) is calculated in GPA as a regular 4.0. Yet I imagine that they should be really beneficial, so trying to rack up a few more this semester.

Your class rank will matter most, but additional awards like that will help. If your class rank is good enough to get someone looking at your application, that stuff will matter. My 1L school factored an A+ as a 4.33, so it wasn't really an issue for me.

Going through the HLR writing competition is lame, but if I had known about it in time I probably would have tried. So, I don't know!

As for GULC with LJ vs. T6 without, I don't think it's a close call. Law review should always be understood as a tertiary credential (school and grades both trump). At my HYS, there was not a major difference in opportunities for LR/non-LR members, and what differences there were could easily have been the result of self-selection or grade-correlation.

[concurrent fork]

Just remember that you need to decide to apply to H early on, because their law review write-on procedure for transfers is early (in May).

I actually wouldn't worry too much about this. I don't think any transfers made LR this year, and the write-on overlaps with the 1L exam period at a lot of schools anyway.

The info is appreciated! That said, many transfers do take LR availability at a target school seriously because they're generally giving it up at their 1L school. Harvard's approach to this part of the process is idiosyncratic, so I think it's worth mentioning.

As an aside, do you know whether it's generally the case that transfers have so much trouble getting on HLR, or do you think this year might be an aberration? It's definitely not the case with either YLJ or SLR (at least, in my observation).

Hard to say since we don't have data for prior years, although the timing obviously knocks some people out by default. However, one great thing about HLS is that you can walk onto some very highly regarded/cited secondary journals like JOLT.

[phoenixsoars]

.

[leppotse]

Just remember that you need to decide to apply to H early on, because their law review write-on procedure for transfers is early (in May).

I actually wouldn't worry too much about this. I don't think any transfers made LR this year, and the write-on overlaps with the 1L exam period at a lot of schools anyway.

The info is appreciated! That said, many transfers do take LR availability at a target school seriously because they're generally giving it up at their 1L school. Harvard's approach to this part of the process is idiosyncratic, so I think it's worth mentioning.

As an aside, do you know whether it's generally the case that transfers have so much trouble getting on HLR, or do you think this year might be an aberration? It's definitely not the case with either YLJ or SLR (at least, in my observation).

Hard to say since we don't have data for prior years, although the timing obviously knocks some people out by default. However, one great thing about HLS is that you can walk onto some very highly regarded/cited secondary journals like JOLT.

Yes--this is a great point that many prospective transfers overlook. At all three of HYS, it's very easy to be on a secondary journal if you want. That said, my experience with secondary journals was that they were semi-serious at best, and were not very valuable as credentials, overall.

[gothamm]

Thanks a ton for doing this.


So I am assuming that you have already gotten your first semester 2L grades. How did you fare? How harder is it to stay top 10% at a much superior school?

[helloperson]

As someone who had examined this way too closely, I want to correct a few things.

First, I would consider USC/UCLA to be peer schools, with UCLA having more renown only outside of the socal region. They place about equally into big law, and you'll be competitive for that in the top 40% at either school. You would need a similar rank from Georgetown to get the same result, the difference being gtown has more lay prestige.

I am in a similar position, placed a huge emphasis on location and really focused on socal. I would take USC/UCLA at sticker over the T2 because I think it's more likely to hit top 40% at USC/UCLA than it is to hit top 5-10% at the T2. My undergraduate background will also likely give me a bit more leeway on the rank, and I imagine your WE might as well.

[leppotse]

As someone who had examined this way too closely, I want to correct a few things.

First, I would consider USC/UCLA to be peer schools, with UCLA having more renown only outside of the socal region. They place about equally into big law, and you'll be competitive for that in the top 40% at either school. You would need a similar rank from Georgetown to get the same result, the difference being gtown has more lay prestige.

I am in a similar position, placed a huge emphasis on location and really focused on socal. I would take USC/UCLA at sticker over the T2 because I think it's more likely to hit top 40% at USC/UCLA than it is to hit top 5-10% at the T2. My undergraduate background will also likely give me a bit more leeway on the rank, and I imagine your WE might as well.

I'm a bit out of my depth on this, but top 40% for biglaw from USC (or UCLA) strikes me, charitably, as overly optimistic. Then again, it sounds like you might have some sort of prestigious engineering or other hard science background that might give you access to hard IP work, although usually undergrad's not enough to make a big difference there (sadly, there is no dearth of folks with advanced sci/eng degrees trying to make that career shift).

[leppotse]

Thanks a ton for doing this.


So I am assuming that you have already gotten your first semester 2L grades. How did you fare? How harder is it to stay top 10% at a much superior school?

Well, I guess you could say that I toned it down after 1L. My nose isn't really to the grindstone by nature, and after 1L/transfer, the sense of urgency was greatly diminished (plus I started investing more time in extracurricular writing projects--but make no mistake, I worked substantially less than I did in 1L). I still did all right, though I was definitely no longer the star of the show.

Some of the other transfers in my class seem to have taken my route and moved over to the right-hand lane. Others seemed to find it harder to kick the habit of working hard. For what it's worth, those people seem to have ended up at or near the top of the class.

[cc1236]

Thanks for your thread. do you have any ideas what Stanford is looking for particularly?
Sorry if this is already covered in your answers.

[teacake]

i noticed you said you came from a school with vague rankings. sorry if you mentioned this already, but how can law schools judge you if you aren't distinctly 5%, 10%, etc.? can they really get a good gauge for where you probably fall within the class with gpa and recs alone?

[Headybrah]

~top 10%
in a school ranked 40-50

When should I start applying?

Im thinking I should wait till after exams, get all my shit together and then wait on grades to determine where to apply.

thoughts?

Also, if my GPA remains the same - given the school ranking I am at now, what sort of schools can I look at?

[leppotse]

Thanks for your thread. do you have any ideas what Stanford is looking for particularly?
Sorry if this is already covered in your answers.

Other than the typical things, I think that Yale and Stanford in particular are looking for people who are socially/culturally compatible with the school. Both have small class sizes and pride themselves on admitting individuals who are not just smart, but also interesting. So, to the extent that you can put your finger on it, you should probably try to portray yourself as fitting into the school's particular culture.

[leppotse]

i noticed you said you came from a school with vague rankings. sorry if you mentioned this already, but how can law schools judge you if you aren't distinctly 5%, 10%, etc.? can they really get a good gauge for where you probably fall within the class with gpa and recs alone?

I worried about this while applying, but at least in my case I really overthought it. My GPA was somewhere around a 3.9, but the cutoff for top 10% for my year was a little under 3.6. So, it was pretty obvious where I stood. But, in addition, my school attached an explanation of their grading system/lack of granular rankings, further dispelling potential confusion. Overall, I think this is not much of an issue.

[leppotse]

~top 10%
in a school ranked 40-50

When should I start applying?

Im thinking I should wait till after exams, get all my shit together and then wait on grades to determine where to apply.

thoughts?

Also, if my GPA remains the same - given the school ranking I am at now, what sort of schools can I look at?

Yeah. Wait until after grades come in to apply, but start thinking about recommenders now. If you have good prospects from your first semester, just go ahead and ask those folks now so that you can have your ducks in a row when it comes time to mail in applications (the transfer timeline is compressed and can be stressful if you haven't been keeping up).

As for schools, definitely apply to the best school (or schools) in the same region as your current school (e.g., if you're Chicago-area, your chances will be best at UChicago and NU). Otherwise, I think you're competitive for MVP on down, and have a plausible shot at CCN if you have geographic affinity on your side. If you can move into the top 5% solidly, CCN should be your targets, and it wouldn't be a waste to try for H (or YS, although those would still be quite unlikely).

Good luck!

[dakatz]

When do school typically start taking transfer apps? And when do decisions usually come back? Just wondering about the time frame.

[gothamm]

When do school typically start taking transfer apps? And when do decisions usually come back? Just wondering about the time frame.

quit wasting op's time with this. this is information you can easily look up.

[dakatz]

When do school typically start taking transfer apps? And when do decisions usually come back? Just wondering about the time frame.

quit wasting op's time with this. this is information you can easily look up.

That would be the case with the majority of shit people have asked about in this thread.