Duke Class of 2013 Forum

[johndh]

watching bull durham before work

[paralegal]

T14 - October Term 2010 Supreme Court Clerk Hires (as of July 7, 2010):
____________________________________________

Yale: 8

Harvard: 7

Duke: 3

UVA: 3

Michigan: 2

Stanford: 1

Columbia: 1

Chicago: 1

NYU: 1

Northwestern: 1

Cornell: 1

Berkeley: 0

Penn: 0

Georgetown: 0

[beantowngunnahh]

T14 - October Term 2010 Supreme Court Clerk Hires (as of July 7, 2010):
____________________________________________

Yale: 8

Harvard: 7

Duke: 3

UVA: 3

Michigan: 2

Stanford: 1

Columbia: 1

Chicago: 1

NYU: 1

Northwestern: 1

Cornell: 1

Berkeley: 0

Penn: 0

Georgetown: 0

Do you know which judges the Duke grads are clerking for? I wonder if there are liberal/conservative preferences according to region and/or ostensible ideological lean of the school....

Leads to a broader question...would you clerk for a supreme court justice whose jurisprudence you are completely at odds with? My answer: f*ck yeah!

[quakeroats]

T14 - October Term 2010 Supreme Court Clerk Hires (as of July 7, 2010):
____________________________________________

Yale: 8

Harvard: 7

Duke: 3

UVA: 3

Michigan: 2

Stanford: 1

Columbia: 1

Chicago: 1

NYU: 1

Northwestern: 1

Cornell: 1

Berkeley: 0

Penn: 0

Georgetown: 0

SCOTUS clerks by school expressed as the percentage of clerks to each institution's average class size:

Yale (200 students): 4%
Duke (200 students): 1.5%
Harvard (550 students): 1.27%
Everyone else: < 1%

[paralegal]

Do you know which judges the Duke grads are clerking for?

Justice Sonia Sotomayor
Amy Mason Saharia (Duke 2005 / Chatigny (D. Conn.) / Newman)

Justice Samuel Alito
Garrick Sevilla (Duke 2007 / J.R. Brown (D.C. Cir.))

Justice Clarence Thomas
Allison Jones (Duke 2007 / Gorsuch / Sentelle)

[paralegal]

Read in the TLS Transfer Forum re Duke that their 2L class had been overenrolled by 18. Normally, Duke takes 15 transfers. This cycle is VERY competitive; they are taking HALF the usual number, 7-8, and are interviewing two to three times the number of applicants they will give offers to.

[pelmen74]

Read in the TLS Transfer Forum re Duke that their 2L class had been overenrolled by 18. Normally, Duke takes 15 transfers. This cycle is VERY competitive; they are taking HALF the usual number, 7-8, and are interviewing two to three times the number of applicants they will give offers to.

I assume that with with the 2013 class overenrolled by 40, Duke will force 25 students to transfer out?
(I am really good at math btw)

[Jericwithers]

Read in the TLS Transfer Forum re Duke that their 2L class had been overenrolled by 18. Normally, Duke takes 15 transfers. This cycle is VERY competitive; they are taking HALF the usual number, 7-8, and are interviewing two to three times the number of applicants they will give offers to.

I assume that with with the 2013 class overenrolled by 40, Duke will force 25 students to transfer out?
(I am really good at math btw)

I was thinking the same thing lol. They can force me to transfer to Yale; I wouldn't complain.

[los blancos]

Read in the TLS Transfer Forum re Duke that their 2L class had been overenrolled by 18. Normally, Duke takes 15 transfers. This cycle is VERY competitive; they are taking HALF the usual number, 7-8, and are interviewing two to three times the number of applicants they will give offers to.

I assume that with with the 2013 class overenrolled by 40, Duke will force 25 students to transfer out?
(I am really good at math btw)

I was thinking the same thing lol. They can force me to transfer to Yale; I wouldn't complain.

I'd settle for Stanford.

[Jericwithers]

I love getting emails like this from U Texas:

Jason,

University records indicate that you may have graduated.

Really? The records indicate that I MAY have graduated? Are they POSSIBLY expecting more money from me in the fall? I also get emails addressed to "First-Year, Transfer, Graduate and Law Students." The one thing I hope Duke doesn't do is spam my email and continue to do so after I've graduated.

/off-topic rant

[Reedie]

I love getting emails like this from U Texas:

Jason,

University records indicate that you may have graduated.

Really? The records indicate that I MAY have graduated? Are they POSSIBLY expecting more money from me in the fall? I also get emails addressed to "First-Year, Transfer, Graduate and Law Students." The one thing I hope Duke doesn't do is spam my email and continue to do so after I've graduated.

/off-topic rant

I'm sure looking forward to dealing with the administration of a small school at a private university. State schools suck in that regard.

[prezidentv8]

I love getting emails like this from U Texas:

Jason,

University records indicate that you may have graduated.

Really? The records indicate that I MAY have graduated? Are they POSSIBLY expecting more money from me in the fall? I also get emails addressed to "First-Year, Transfer, Graduate and Law Students." The one thing I hope Duke doesn't do is spam my email and continue to do so after I've graduated.

/off-topic rant

I'm sure looking forward to dealing with the administration of a small school at a private university. State schools suck in that regard.

If I may, you have NO IDEA how much better the administrators are here. And more polite too.

[quakeroats]

I haven’t done much talking in this thread, but I’d like some advice on whether what I’m seeing in Duke’s employment numbers is real or imagined—if not a bit of both.


In trying to get a sense of how well one school places students relative to others, I’ve read a lot of data others have compiled. Brian Leiter has his rankings, U.S. News puts out some statistics as do the ABA, the NLJ, etc. I think Professor Leiter comes closest to tracking down which schools have the strongest ability to place graduates with his, “The Top 15 Schools From Which the Most "Prestigious" Law Firms Hire New Lawyers.” I wanted to take this a bit further, so I added and removed a few things. First, since positions at the New York offices of New York firms at the top of the Vault rankings are widely regarded as the most difficult to obtain (there are notable exceptions, i.e., Munger, which I’m going to exclude for lack of time), I excluded all firms not based in New York. I took the rest of what amounts to the Vault 8 and totaled up all associates working at each firm; I excluded Berkeley and Georgetown for lack of time. I then came up with the total number of graduates sent to firms in New York from law school websites and promotional materials. I then compared the total number of graduates working in Vault 8 firms for each school with the total number of graduates each school sent to New York and came up with a ratio of one to the other with higher numbers showing a strong ability to place well than lower numbers.

The results were surprising:


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Duke’s preformed outstandingly well, far above all of its peers and more in line with Columbia than Michigan or Virginia. After compiling this I later used the new ABA data for students practicing in New York which moved Duke into first place. Using the same ABA data I ran a larger analysis comparing Chicago and Duke over the entire Vault 100. While Chicago maintained some advantage through the first 25 firms this diminished to a virtual tie by the 100th firm.

I can think of the usual problems (small sample size, self-selection, etc.) with a survey like this, but I thought this could further the discussion in some small way. If nothing else, it can serve as a way of distinguishing Duke from MVPB for those interested in New York.

[Jericwithers]

So only HYSCC places a greater percentage of their New York bound graduates into prestigious V10(-2) firms? Interesting. Not sure I would take those jobs, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to entertain an offer. Good analysis. Small class size, good reputation, and no single dominate market gives Duke the edge again.

Now who wants to do the same analysis for other important markets?

[quakeroats]

So only HYSCC places a greater percentage of their New York bound graduates into prestigious V10(-2) firms? Interesting. Not sure I would take those jobs, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to entertain an offer. Good analysis. Small class size, good reputation, and no single dominate market gives Duke the edge again.

Now who wants to do the same analysis for other important markets?

Just think about what this means for a student wanting to practice in New York picking Michigan over Duke. Just looking at USNWR doesn't give you the sense that you're getting 60% less placement power from a higher ranked school relative to a lower ranked school. Also, the difference between Duke and those schools above it in this analysis is 15% maximum and less than 2% minimum. When someone drops $70k at Duke to go to Columbia, they're probably expecting a great deal more than 2% additional placement power, not to mention those dropping full rides at Duke for that 15% at Harvard.

[Jericwithers]

So only HYSCC places a greater percentage of their New York bound graduates into prestigious V10(-2) firms? Interesting. Not sure I would take those jobs, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to entertain an offer. Good analysis. Small class size, good reputation, and no single dominate market gives Duke the edge again.

Now who wants to do the same analysis for other important markets?

Just think about what this means for a student wanting to practice in New York picking Michigan over Duke. Just looking at USNWR doesn't give you the sense that you're getting 60% less placement power from a higher ranked school relative to a lower ranked school. Also, the difference between Duke and those schools above it in this analysis is 15% maximum and less than 2% minimum. When someone drops $70k at Duke to go to Columbia, they're probably expecting a great deal more than 2% additional placement power, not to mention those dropping full rides at Duke for that 15% at Harvard.

People are finally wising up though; Duke is over-enrolled by 40 people.

[quakeroats]

So only HYSCC places a greater percentage of their New York bound graduates into prestigious V10(-2) firms? Interesting. Not sure I would take those jobs, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to entertain an offer. Good analysis. Small class size, good reputation, and no single dominate market gives Duke the edge again.

Now who wants to do the same analysis for other important markets?

Just think about what this means for a student wanting to practice in New York picking Michigan over Duke. Just looking at USNWR doesn't give you the sense that you're getting 60% less placement power from a higher ranked school relative to a lower ranked school. Also, the difference between Duke and those schools above it in this analysis is 15% maximum and less than 2% minimum. When someone drops $70k at Duke to go to Columbia, they're probably expecting a great deal more than 2% additional placement power, not to mention those dropping full rides at Duke for that 15% at Harvard.

People are finally wising up though; Duke is over-enrolled by 40 people.

I avoided posting this in public until late in the cycle for just that reason. Most of our future classmates won't read TLS at any point, much less this close to classes starting.

[thickfreakness]

I love getting emails like this from U Texas:

Jason,

University records indicate that you may have graduated.

Really? The records indicate that I MAY have graduated? Are they POSSIBLY expecting more money from me in the fall? I also get emails addressed to "First-Year, Transfer, Graduate and Law Students." The one thing I hope Duke doesn't do is spam my email and continue to do so after I've graduated.

/off-topic rant

Nice. I was pissed when my alma mater sent me something asking for money three months after I graduated. Didn't have a job, didn't have a kitchen table, cable, internet, a TV, a desk, and my laptop had just died. This was after I tried to get help from the career office in giving me any modicum of help in finding a job and was totally ignored. Hell, my wife tried to see about getting in touch with someone in her field in the triangle area for networking/job purposes and they e-mailed her back three months later basically saying "try some of the professors from your old department." She had already nailed down a job at that point so it wasn't as infuriating as it would've been. Anyway, they won't get a dime from me anytime soon, which is kind of funny since I didn't pay them to go there in the first place.

[Jericwithers]

I love getting emails like this from U Texas:

Jason,

University records indicate that you may have graduated.

Really? The records indicate that I MAY have graduated? Are they POSSIBLY expecting more money from me in the fall? I also get emails addressed to "First-Year, Transfer, Graduate and Law Students." The one thing I hope Duke doesn't do is spam my email and continue to do so after I've graduated.

/off-topic rant

Nice. I was pissed when my alma mater sent me something asking for money three months after I graduated. Didn't have a job, didn't have a kitchen table, cable, internet, a TV, a desk, and my laptop had just died. This was after I tried to get help from the career office in giving me any modicum of help in finding a job and was totally ignored. Hell, my wife tried to see about getting in touch with someone in her field in the triangle area for networking/job purposes and they e-mailed her back three months later basically saying "try some of the professors from your old department." She had already nailed down a job at that point so it wasn't as infuriating as it would've been. Anyway, they won't get a dime from me anytime soon, which is kind of funny since I didn't pay them to go there in the first place.

Hah, that story wouldn't be as funny if the anger and frustration contained within wasn't sincere. UT was smart, they hit me up for cash 1 month before I graduated when I was livin' large with graduation gift money.

[Flanker1067]

I haven't read this thread in awhile but A Song of the Ice and Fire is brilliant. I read that a few years ago when the 5th book was still supposed to come out in '08. Now I am killing time by reading GTM, and attempting to lose weight while still drinking a lot.

This may have been answered already, but when do we find out what section we are in?

[Jericwithers]

This may have been answered already, but when do we find out what section we are in?

Early August, and you can find out by logging into ACES.

[pelmen74]

@quakeroats:
I think the selection variable pretty much makes its impossible to deduce any conclusions from your data. As far as I understand, NY is the most competitive market meaning that a good percentage of students simply cannot break into it. The fact that only 23% are in NY does not mean that Duke does well there, it could simply mean that only the best Duke students can get a job there. That being said, I think this data could be useful if it included all of the major markets to reduce the uncertainty regarding selection into a single market (after all, most people do work in large cities).

Either way, its pretty awesome that you took the time to calculate all this data, thanks !

[quakeroats]

@quakeroats:
I think the selection variable pretty much makes its impossible to deduce any conclusions from your data. As far as I understand, NY is the most competitive market meaning that a good percentage of students simply cannot break into it. The fact that only 23% are in NY does not mean that Duke does well there, it could simply mean that only the best Duke students can get a job there. That being said, I think this data could be useful if it included all of the major markets to reduce the uncertainty regarding selection into a single market (after all, most people do work in large cities).

Either way, its pretty awesome that you took the time to calculate all this data, thanks !

I'd agree that's probably the case. That would argue against comparisons with YHS with this methodology, but it should work more appropriately outside of HYSCC. Comparing Duke and Michigan works well as an example. They both send a plurality of students to New York. They're both located hundreds of miles from the city. They attract similar students with similar LSAT and UGPA numbers. They both even send roughly the same percentage of their class to New York. Give all of that, Michigan has a lot of difficulty placing students in the most elite firms in this analysis. If we expand this to other data points (Wachtell doesn't seem to recruit at or hire from Michigan, Duke's clerkship placement (especially Article III where it's more in line with Chicago than MVPB) is much stronger than Michigan's, the most recent OCI was much far worse at Michigan than at Duke), the case becomes even stronger.

I've expanded this a little bit--although it remains incomplete--to secondary and tertiary markets (D.C., California, Texas) for Duke relative to others and the pattern seems to hold. I think the totality of the evidence moves Duke into a stronger position than it's normally given credit for on TLS. Far from being at the bottom of the T14, I'd argue that HYSCCD is more appropriate than not, and I would say the weight of the evidence seems to agree.

[pelmen74]

@quakeroats:
I think the selection variable pretty much makes its impossible to deduce any conclusions from your data. As far as I understand, NY is the most competitive market meaning that a good percentage of students simply cannot break into it. The fact that only 23% are in NY does not mean that Duke does well there, it could simply mean that only the best Duke students can get a job there. That being said, I think this data could be useful if it included all of the major markets to reduce the uncertainty regarding selection into a single market (after all, most people do work in large cities).

Either way, its pretty awesome that you took the time to calculate all this data, thanks !

I'd agree that's probably the case. That would argue against comparisons with YHS with this methodology, but it should work more appropriately outside of HYSCC. Comparing Duke and Michigan works well as an example. They both send a plurality of students to New York. They're both located hundreds of miles from the city. They attract similar students with similar LSAT and UGPA numbers. They both even send roughly the same percentage of their class to New York. Give all of that, Michigan has a lot of difficulty placing students in the most elite firms in this analysis. If we expand this to other data points (Wachtell doesn't seem to recruit at or hire from Michigan, Duke's clerkship placement (especially Article III where it's more in line with Chicago than MVPB) is much stronger than Michigan's, the most recent OCI was much far worse at Michigan than at Duke), the case becomes even stronger.

I've expanded this a little bit--although it remains incomplete--to secondary and tertiary markets (D.C., California, Texas) for Duke relative to others and the pattern seems to hold. I think the totality of the evidence moves Duke into a stronger position than it's normally given credit for on TLS. Far from being at the bottom of the T14, I'd argue that HYSCCD is more appropriate than not, and I would say the weight of the evidence seems to agree.

credited. I did think that the data is slightly skewed by UVA grads owning the DC market and I did assume that Mich did sent a plurality to Chicago (but I guess I was wrong if you extrapolated correctly). I do hope your data is right! HYSCCD all the way

[quakeroats]

I did think that the data is slightly skewed by UVA grads owning the DC market

You might be surprised:

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