WUSTL Class of 2013 Forum

[musicfor18]

I emailed the admission office and asked about the possibility of an increase in scholarship if I were to defer. They responded to say that my current award be guaranteed at this time, and that there may be a chance that next cycle my award could be increased depending on the budget.

so in other words, you wouldn't be able to know if your award would increase until the next cycle, after you have already deferred?

That's correct, although you would be guaranteed your current award.

[panadera]

I emailed the admission office and asked about the possibility of an increase in scholarship if I were to defer. They responded to say that my current award be guaranteed at this time, and that there may be a chance that next cycle my award could be increased depending on the budget.

so in other words, you wouldn't be able to know if your award would increase until the next cycle, after you have already deferred?

That's correct, although you would be guaranteed your current award.

And tuition increases a couple thousand every year, right?

[musicfor18]

I emailed the admission office and asked about the possibility of an increase in scholarship if I were to defer. They responded to say that my current award be guaranteed at this time, and that there may be a chance that next cycle my award could be increased depending on the budget.

so in other words, you wouldn't be able to know if your award would increase until the next cycle, after you have already deferred?

That's correct, although you would be guaranteed your current award.

And tuition increases a couple thousand every year, right?

Yes, as does COL, most likely. So, it's really the 3L year that you have to look at. You would already have been locked into your current award through 2012-2013. It's the following year where you'll end up financially behind due to a deferral unless the award in increased.

[itsmytime10]

Does this mean that if you are on the Hold or WaitList, you are officially screwed?

[myq]

Yeah, the last two e-mails from WUSTL both seemed like they don't want me there. That's it, I'm going to Cooley instead.

[dvd]

`

[Stephanie13]

I know I will probably get a biased response here BUT what is the deal with people hating on WUSTL on this site. I get the reputation that WUSTL "buys" its students but honestly does that really discredit it from all of its other fine qualities? Do any of y'all consider WUSTL to be overranked?

Just curious + bored at work

[JCougar]

Does this mean that if you are on the Hold or WaitList, you are officially screwed?

It looks bad right now, but we don't really know anything. Neither does WUSTL. People can still get refunds on their deposits, and it's well known that yield rate has to be somewhat lower this year due to everybody applying to 30 schools.

I think I'm going to take a break from TLS pretty soon, because all this worrying and analysis is doing me no good. Either they like my application or they don't, and either there ends up being room for me in the class or there doesn't. Following the minutae of this application process won't change a thing. I did my part. Although I applied late, I got the LSAT I needed, I submitted my LOCI, and I visited campus and told them they're my #1 choice. It might not be enough, though, this year, due to the spike in applications, but I took care of everything that's under my control.

[JCougar]

I know I will probably get a biased response here BUT what is the deal with people hating on WUSTL on this site. I get the reputation that WUSTL "buys" its students but honestly does that really discredit it from all of its other fine qualities? Do any of y'all consider WUSTL to be overranked?

Just curious + bored at work

I'm bored at work, too, which is part of my problem.

The reason WUSTL is rising in the rankings isn't just because they "buy" students. Obviously, every school does that. They've hired many great faculty lately, they've hired a dean with a great reputation, they have a new law school building that is gorgeous, and their career services office seems to be working wonders. Furthermore, their educational focus is on practical skills, which is something that big firms are looking for.

WUSTL is trying everything they can to turn themselves into an elite school.

[Stephanie13]

Oh I definitely agree but do y'all think that in terms of job prospects and reputation that WUSTL deserves to be a T20? I think maybe that's where it gets its "bad" reputation, the dissonance between its rank and its actual prestige and success.

[najumobi]

Oh I definitely agree but do y'all think that in terms of job prospects and reputation that WUSTL deserves to be a T20? I think maybe that's where it gets its "bad" reputation, the dissonance between its rank and its actual prestige and success.

having a cutoff at the top 20 is pretty meaningless. WUSTL is correctly grouped with bc, bu, gw, nd, uiuc, fordham, and emory in terms of job placement. wustl being ranked in the top 20 doesn't make them any better than fordham which is ranked outside of the top 30 right now. i think that whether one school would be significantly better for an applicant to go to over another would depend on where that applicant desires to work after law school.

[quadsixm]

Exactly. Past a certain point, all these schools you listed are regional, and are equally as good for their respective regions. It's a shame that they must be ranked at all, because in theory, they should all be grouped together.

Oh I definitely agree but do y'all think that in terms of job prospects and reputation that WUSTL deserves to be a T20? I think maybe that's where it gets its "bad" reputation, the dissonance between its rank and its actual prestige and success.

having a cutoff at the top 20 is pretty meaningless. WUSTL is correctly grouped with bc, bu, gw, nd, uiuc, fordham, and emory in terms of job placement. wustl being ranked in the top 20 doesn't make them any better than fordham which is ranked outside of the top 30 right now. i think that whether one school would be significantly better for an applicant to go to over another would depend on where that applicant desires to work after law school.

[JCougar]

Exactly. Past a certain point, all these schools you listed are regional, and are equally as good for their respective regions. It's a shame that they must be ranked at all, because in theory, they should all be grouped together.

Oh I definitely agree but do y'all think that in terms of job prospects and reputation that WUSTL deserves to be a T20? I think maybe that's where it gets its "bad" reputation, the dissonance between its rank and its actual prestige and success.

having a cutoff at the top 20 is pretty meaningless. WUSTL is correctly grouped with bc, bu, gw, nd, uiuc, fordham, and emory in terms of job placement. wustl being ranked in the top 20 doesn't make them any better than fordham which is ranked outside of the top 30 right now. i think that whether one school would be significantly better for an applicant to go to over another would depend on where that applicant desires to work after law school.

But WUSTL is creeping into national placement. They have the ability to place a fair number of grads in New York and DC, as well as the South. California not so much. My guess is they place better in the East than BC, BU, Fordham and GW place in the Midwest.

With that said, if you're sure you want to work on the East Coast, you're better off choosing one of BU, BC, Fordham, or GW.

[Sauer Grapes]

Exactly. Past a certain point, all these schools you listed are regional, and are equally as good for their respective regions. It's a shame that they must be ranked at all, because in theory, they should all be grouped together.

Oh I definitely agree but do y'all think that in terms of job prospects and reputation that WUSTL deserves to be a T20? I think maybe that's where it gets its "bad" reputation, the dissonance between its rank and its actual prestige and success.

having a cutoff at the top 20 is pretty meaningless. WUSTL is correctly grouped with bc, bu, gw, nd, uiuc, fordham, and emory in terms of job placement. wustl being ranked in the top 20 doesn't make them any better than fordham which is ranked outside of the top 30 right now. i think that whether one school would be significantly better for an applicant to go to over another would depend on where that applicant desires to work after law school.

But WUSTL is creeping into national placement. They have the ability to place a fair number of grads in New York and DC, as well as the South. California not so much. My guess is they place better in the East than BC, BU, Fordham and GW place in the Midwest.

With that said, if you're sure you want to work on the East Coast, you're better off choosing one of BU, BC, Fordham, or GW.

I think that is a fair assumption.

[romothesavior]

Oh I definitely agree but do y'all think that in terms of job prospects and reputation that WUSTL deserves to be a T20? I think maybe that's where it gets its "bad" reputation, the dissonance between its rank and its actual prestige and success.

having a cutoff at the top 20 is pretty meaningless. WUSTL is correctly grouped with bc, bu, gw, nd, uiuc, fordham, and emory in terms of job placement. wustl being ranked in the top 20 doesn't make them any better than fordham which is ranked outside of the top 30 right now. i think that whether one school would be significantly better for an applicant to go to over another would depend on where that applicant desires to work after law school.

I wouldn't lump WUSTL in with Fordham. Fordham has about as little portability as a T1 school can possibly have. Over 90% of their students stay in NYC. Yes, part of that is self-selection... but there is no way you should go to Fordham if you have non-NYC aspirations. With almost their entire class staying in the city, that means they have a very, very small alumni base in other areas of the country and few non-NYC people are going to be that familiar with them. I would take WUSTL at sticker over Fordham at a significant discount if my aspirations were to be outside of NYC. You cannot downplay the importance of a good alumni network.

WUSTL is a peer of UIUC and ND, in that all three are strong midwestern schools with decent national placement. I hesitate to call GW, BU, and BC "peers" with WUSTL simply because they attack different markets. I would say that GW, BU, and BC are the "WUSTL/UIUC/ND" of the east coast. They are very equatable, only with different markets. All three of those schools place well on the coast and will give you decent portability if you finish high in your class and network out of there.

[romothesavior]

Does this mean that if you are on the Hold or WaitList, you are officially screwed?

It looks bad right now, but we don't really know anything. Neither does WUSTL. People can still get refunds on their deposits, and it's well known that yield rate has to be somewhat lower this year due to everybody applying to 30 schools.

I think I'm going to take a break from TLS pretty soon, because all this worrying and analysis is doing me no good. Either they like my application or they don't, and either there ends up being room for me in the class or there doesn't. Following the minutae of this application process won't change a thing. I did my part. Although I applied late, I got the LSAT I needed, I submitted my LOCI, and I visited campus and told them they're my #1 choice. It might not be enough, though, this year, due to the spike in applications, but I took care of everything that's under my control.

If it is any consolation... just know that I am really, really pulling for you. I have enjoyed your posts on TLS and I can tell you really want to join us in St. Louis in the fall.

And Sibley... sorry to hear you are picking GW, but it sounds like you have done so for the right reasons. Best of luck to you, and always feel free to jump in and say hello!

[najumobi]

Exactly. Past a certain point, all these schools you listed are regional, and are equally as good for their respective regions. It's a shame that they must be ranked at all, because in theory, they should all be grouped together.

Oh I definitely agree but do y'all think that in terms of job prospects and reputation that WUSTL deserves to be a T20? I think maybe that's where it gets its "bad" reputation, the dissonance between its rank and its actual prestige and success.

having a cutoff at the top 20 is pretty meaningless. WUSTL is correctly grouped with bc, bu, gw, nd, uiuc, fordham, and emory in terms of job placement. wustl being ranked in the top 20 doesn't make them any better than fordham which is ranked outside of the top 30 right now. i think that whether one school would be significantly better for an applicant to go to over another would depend on where that applicant desires to work after law school.

But WUSTL is creeping into national placement. They have the ability to place a fair number of grads in New York and DC, as well as the South. California not so much. My guess is they place better in the East than BC, BU, Fordham and GW place in the Midwest.

With that said, if you're sure you want to work on the East Coast, you're better off choosing one of BU, BC, Fordham, or GW.

there could probably be small gradations (i do trust wustl's ability to place students a little more than i trust emory's) but wustl's placement isn't head and shoulders above those other schools. i think we currently and will continue to disgree about wustl's "national placement". my take is that only the students at a few schools have almost no barrier to working in any region in the country (yale, harvard, stanford, chicago, columbia). for instance, i think the average student coming out of penn can expect to get a well paying job, but the average penn student shouldn't expect get a well paying job in california. i'd rather stick to grading schools on their ability to place their students into well paying jobs. wustl's geographical placement of students is larger than that of uiuc, but it's students are also more geographically diverse. if we grade schools by also looking at geographical placement it introduces more variables which makes it harder to strictly measure a school's placement ability, especially since we all know being from a particular region gives a student a better chance of gaining valuable employment in that region. going by the salary placement of schools' grads (and cost of living of grads' location) is probably a more accurate way to grade schools placement ability.

[najumobi]

Oh I definitely agree but do y'all think that in terms of job prospects and reputation that WUSTL deserves to be a T20? I think maybe that's where it gets its "bad" reputation, the dissonance between its rank and its actual prestige and success.

having a cutoff at the top 20 is pretty meaningless. WUSTL is correctly grouped with bc, bu, gw, nd, uiuc, fordham, and emory in terms of job placement. wustl being ranked in the top 20 doesn't make them any better than fordham which is ranked outside of the top 30 right now. i think that whether one school would be significantly better for an applicant to go to over another would depend on where that applicant desires to work after law school.

I wouldn't lump WUSTL in with Fordham. Fordham has about as little portability as a T1 school can possibly have. Over 90% of their students stay in NYC. Yes, part of that is self-selection... but there is no way you should go to Fordham if you have non-NYC aspirations. With almost their entire class staying in the city, that means they have a very, very small alumni base in other areas of the country and few non-NYC people are going to be that familiar with them. I would take WUSTL at sticker over Fordham at a significant discount if my aspirations were to be outside of NYC. You cannot downplay the importance of a good alumni network.

WUSTL is a peer of UIUC and ND, in that all three are strong midwestern schools with decent national placement. I hesitate to call GW, BU, and BC "peers" with WUSTL simply because they attack different markets. I would say that GW, BU, and BC are the "WUSTL/UIUC/ND" of the east coast. They are very equatable, only with different markets. All three of those schools place well on the coast and will give you decent portability if you finish high in your class and network out of there.

there's a trade off....geographical placement may shrink considerably, but likeliness of getting a good job in that small location (nyc in the case of fordham) increases significantly.

it would probably be easier to get chicago employment from UIUC than from wustl, and it would be easier to get employment on the coast from WUSTL than from UIUC, but the percentage of students getting well paying jobs seems to be about the same. that's why i think all 8 of these schools can be considered peer.

[mrgth51453]

I'll preface by saying I don't really belong in this thread as I'm already at WUSTL.. but if it makes any of you feel better, once you're on campus, everyone involved in the law school is unbelievably helpful and willing to go above and beyond, up to and including deans.... can see why these e-mails would offend, but it isn't typical of the administration once you're a student. Not tryin to stick up for the school or nethin, but thought I'd throw that out there for anyone worried bout it...

[Stephanie13]

I'll preface by saying I don't really belong in this thread as I'm already at WUSTL.. but if it makes any of you feel better, once you're on campus, everyone involved in the law school is unbelievably helpful and willing to go above and beyond, up to and including deans.... can see why these e-mails would offend, but it isn't typical of the administration once you're a student. Not tryin to stick up for the school or nethin, but thought I'd throw that out there for anyone worried bout it...

Since you're a student there, do you mind answering some questions for us? Only if you can spare the time of course, but I've noticed there is a lack of current WUSTL students online to help us field some questions.

I'll start: How is WUSTL's placement in Texas? From what I understand, a lot of it has to do with self selection but if I were to look for internships and jobs in Texas for both of my summers, how difficult would that be?

Thanks in advance!

[romothesavior]

I'll preface by saying I don't really belong in this thread as I'm already at WUSTL.. but if it makes any of you feel better, once you're on campus, everyone involved in the law school is unbelievably helpful and willing to go above and beyond, up to and including deans.... can see why these e-mails would offend, but it isn't typical of the administration once you're a student. Not tryin to stick up for the school or nethin, but thought I'd throw that out there for anyone worried bout it...

Hey thanks for the reply. If you don't mind, I've been trying to get some questions answered from current WUSTL students. I've posted these in a few of the "taking questions" threads but have gotten few responses. If you could take a moment and respond, I'd appreciate it!

1. What is the job outlook for 2Ls? Information on students at 10%, 30%, 50%, and below median would be especially helpful. Obviously the top of the class should be just fine, but I'm curious as to how other students are faring.

2. What are most 1Ls doing? I'd imagine most are going with unpaid work, but I'm curious as to what kind of work people are finding. Anybody finding paid firm work, and if so, what do they do to get it?

3. I've heard that finding work in STL can be difficult, since many firms see people as a flight risk. This concerns me, since my top market choice is St. Louis. What is your perception of WUSTL placing people in St. Louis, and what does the current St. Louis legal market look like?

4. How is the night life/social scene at Wash U? I had a blast at the ASD and enjoyed some of the bars along Delmar, but I'm curious as to whether my one night there was representative of the night life at school.

5. What is your experience like with the CSO? I really liked Dean Spivey during the ASD and I feel like their office seems pretty aggressive in finding students jobs, but I'm curious as to what you think.

Thanks for taking questions.

[Lawrence]

I'll preface by saying I don't really belong in this thread as I'm already at WUSTL.. but if it makes any of you feel better, once you're on campus, everyone involved in the law school is unbelievably helpful and willing to go above and beyond, up to and including deans.... can see why these e-mails would offend, but it isn't typical of the administration once you're a student. Not tryin to stick up for the school or nethin, but thought I'd throw that out there for anyone worried bout it...

Since you're a student there, do you mind answering some questions for us? Only if you can spare the time of course, but I've noticed there is a lack of current WUSTL students online to help us field some questions.

I'll start: How is WUSTL's placement in Texas? From what I understand, a lot of it has to do with self selection but if I were to look for internships and jobs in Texas for both of my summers, how difficult would that be?

Thanks in advance!

I go to WUSTL as well and I'd rather answer questions on here than study for finals so I'll give it a shot. Texas isn't a market you hear much about going here. My impression, as with any area that is not somewhere we send a lot of students, is that your personal connections are the most important thing. If you have a connection to Texas I don't see going to WUSTL as a barrier to getting back there. The important caveat being you are going to have to do the work on your own as there just aren't a bunch of Texas firms coming here to recruit.

[Lawrence]

I'll preface by saying I don't really belong in this thread as I'm already at WUSTL.. but if it makes any of you feel better, once you're on campus, everyone involved in the law school is unbelievably helpful and willing to go above and beyond, up to and including deans.... can see why these e-mails would offend, but it isn't typical of the administration once you're a student. Not tryin to stick up for the school or nethin, but thought I'd throw that out there for anyone worried bout it...

Hey thanks for the reply. If you don't mind, I've been trying to get some questions answered from current WUSTL students. I've posted these in a few of the "taking questions" threads but have gotten few responses. If you could take a moment and respond, I'd appreciate it!

1. What is the job outlook for 2Ls? Information on students at 10%, 30%, 50%, and below median would be especially helpful. Obviously the top of the class should be just fine, but I'm curious as to how other students are faring.

2. What are most 1Ls doing? I'd imagine most are going with unpaid work, but I'm curious as to what kind of work people are finding. Anybody finding paid firm work, and if so, what do they do to get it?

3. I've heard that finding work in STL can be difficult, since many firms see people as a flight risk. This concerns me, since my top market choice is St. Louis. What is your perception of WUSTL placing people in St. Louis, and what does the current St. Louis legal market look like?

4. How is the night life/social scene at Wash U? I had a blast at the ASD and enjoyed some of the bars along Delmar, but I'm curious as to whether my one night there was representative of the night life at school.

5. What is your experience like with the CSO? I really liked Dean Spivey during the ASD and I feel like their office seems pretty aggressive in finding students jobs, but I'm curious as to what you think.

Thanks for taking questions.

As a first year student it's pretty hard for me to answer question 1. Of the 2L's that I know what are doing, I don't really have any idea what their grades are. I just assume the ones with jobs at more prestigious firms have higher grades. This will be a lot easier for me to answer after my class goes through OCI next year.

As far as 1L's, it really varies a lot. I know a few working with U.S. Attorney's Offices. (There are two in the St. Louis area, Eastern District of Missouri and Southern District of Illinois) Some people have jobs with smaller firms. Those with paid "biglaw" jobs would certainly be few and far between. One of the big selling points of the school in my opinion is they provide a handful of good summer opportunities. You can do the Judicial Clerkship Externship over the summer which places you with a local judge at various levels of courts. There is another program which places with local non-profits and government agencies. (I have a list of them somewhere if anyone is interested.) Beyond that, there are pretty good opportunities to work as a research assistant with the professors here. (If anyone wants more specifics about what I'm doing shoot me a pm.)

St. Louis firms care a lot about a connection to the area, some more than others. So, if you aren't from St. Louis, but really want to stay here, I would be prepared to have a good reason for it as a few of the firms seem to have an inferiority complex. It's not impossible to overcome, and I know a few who have already, but I won't say that it isn't an issue.

The night life and social scene is pretty good. I don't partake a whole lot, but when I do it has always been a good time. There really is a collegial atmosphere here and the good relationship that you develop with your classmates continues outside of the school, or at least in my experience it has.

CSO has been pretty good. They have been very willing to help, put in the good word, etc. Dean Spivey is amazing. He's not the advisor for my section, so I waited a while to contact him directly, but when I did it was definitely a good decision. He is a guy that is good to have on your side, and he will be.

[mrgth51453]

It looks like good answers already given, but I'll offer my perspective as well... also a 1L at WUSTL

Texas question -
Getting to Texas is probably going to involve some leg work. WUSTL seems to have a lot of ties to midwest, and east coast, and less so elsewhere. You can definitely get there, but just make sure to take advantage of networking opportunities because it isn't going to happen through the CSO alone. That'd be my take.

[mrgth51453]

1. I'm a 1L, so I can't really speak to 2L's very well. The few 2L's i've spoken to seem to agree that most jobs involve networking and seeking outside of the OCI and outside of the CSO, but it seems like people are finding jobs. I can say that 1L summer is hard to find a job for, I did pretty well first semester and it was still a struggle.

2. It's basically what you'd expect, a lot of unpaid, a lot of non-profit, some RA's, and then some Firm jobs. I will say that I don't know anyone that got a job through OCI at a firm, aside from through the diversity clerkship. I am not aware of anyone working for one of the large st. louis firms in fact, aside from through the diversity clerkship. There are people that have firm jobs, but it seems like they got them mostly through networking/connections.

3. WUSTL can place in st. louis, but you're absolutely right about the flight risk issue. Every st. louis interview I had put a ton of emphasis on local connections and local ties, and they seem very concerned about flight. I would advise emphasizing very heavily your interest in staying in st. louis, and developing some very strong reasons for doing so. At least for 1L summer it seems like the firms were more concerned about this than grades, etc.

4. Seems to be pretty good. At the start of the year during orientation there was a bar event nearly every night. Outside of school there are a lot of pretty cool bars to go to, the loop is a good area, as well the central west end. The school does bar reviews weekly, people seem to go to them (though late), and then the school hosts happy hours on fridays that are also pretty well attended. There's definetly a social life here, in my opinion.

5. Dean Spivey seems really good, though he is not my advisor and I did not have direct contact with him. He is very willing to help, he gave out his cell number during our orientation. That said, the CSO isn't going to find you a job, for the most part. They put on a lot of networking events, offer pretty good advice, and can really help in putting you in contact with people, but for the most part prepare to do a lot of leg work. The OCI for 1Ls especially is not very effective. I wouldn't worry too much, though, almost everyone I know has a summer job somewhere doing something, even if it is unpaid (and the school does offer a stipend for PI summer work).