IOWA 2013 Forum

[jaskat]

I think you will not struggle socially. Not at all.

lol

I know NO ONE in Iowa City, hence the open solicitation for fellow soccer fans and beer drinkers this summer. My wife has to stay out East for a few more months as well, so I'm not going to be picky about anyone wanting to hang out. This is especially true if it means meeting future classmates.

Where in the east are you two coming from? And I think you got sooooo lucky with this summer and futbol since it's the World Cup!!!!

[Knights1215]

Hey Everyone,

I started a facebook page for our class...it's called "University of Iowa College of Law Class of 2013" (rather obvious, I know) If we all join, it'll help us network a little bit better and may help those looking for roommates and such...looking forward to meeting all of you!

The official Iowa Law Class of 2013 Facebook page is here, if you haven't seen it.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Universit ... 350&ref=ts

Nice! Thanks!

[Knights1215]

Anyone living near or off Morman Trek?

[thepcv]

One advantage that soccer/futbol seems to have over American sports is passion. The fan loyalty and the atmosphere at high-profile matches is unparalleled, or so I am told. In the U.S., stadium sizes are contracting (particularly in football) and marginalizing real fans. The continuing threat of franchise relocation also hinders fan devotion.

That being said, soccer is tiresome to watch. SportsCenter highlights do just fine.

I do like that soccer is an international sport, as it just gives me another excuse to root for the United States in something. Plus I love big sporting events, and it doesn't get much bigger than the World Cup.

I can understand (yet do not agree with) the "soccer is boring" sentiment. But I am also willing to make a wager: come watch the clasico with me next year (Barcelona against their arch-rivals, Real Madrid), and if you do not thoroughly enjoy the game, I will buy you a liquor of your choice. Those games are just as big as (almost) any international match.

I find the boring argument mostly unfounded. It's perception. Take American Football (which I also love to watch). If the scoring system were changed to make touchdowns 1pt instead of 6 (or 7 with the field goal), our entire perception of how exciting the game is would instantly change. Instead of a team winning 21 to 14, the score'd be 3-2, and guess what the sounds a whole lot like.. Soccer. Perception, especially based on the amount of points we allot to a single score makes a huge difference.

Baseball (another sport I love) is a lot slower than pretty much any other sport, but the dynamic of baseball makes it easier to score runs/points--making it seem more exciting when, in fact, far less has happened.

Sure, some people might genuinely find the sport boring, but then, some people might find snowboarding lame or golf exhilarating. And I simply cannot relate to any of those opinions.

And Jerome, Yeah, I'm really hoping Torres makes a speedy recovery. Hearing he's likely to be out for knee surgery was pretty much crushing (especially if he ends up missing the World Cup, too).

[Yacht_Party]

I find the boring argument mostly unfounded. It's perception. Take American Football (which I also love to watch). If the scoring system were changed to make touchdowns 1pt instead of 6 (or 7 with the field goal), our entire perception of how exciting the game is would instantly change. Instead of a team winning 21 to 14, the score'd be 3-2, and guess what the sounds a whole lot like.. Soccer. Perception, especially based on the amount of points we allot to a single score makes a huge difference.

Baseball (another sport I love) is a lot slower than pretty much any other sport, but the dynamic of baseball makes it easier to score runs/points--making it seem more exciting when, in fact, far less has happened.

Sure, some people might genuinely find the sport boring, but then, some people might find snowboarding lame or golf exhilarating. And I simply cannot relate to any of those opinions.

And Jerome, Yeah, I'm really hoping Torres makes a speedy recovery. Hearing he's likely to be out for knee surgery was pretty much crushing (especially if he ends up missing the World Cup, too).

I don't agree with this. It's not perception, but how the scoring system influences outcomes. More intricate scoring systems give rise to more strategic decisions throughout the course of a game (everything else being equal). This makes sports exciting. Take Bill Belichick's decision to go for it on fourth and two. If football was scored by ones, it would not have been nearly as interesting as this:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/11 ... colts.html

Edit: I'm not saying that soccer is inherently boring. I'm sure soccer is very strategic in its own unique ways (I'm not much of a soccer fan, but I do like the World Cup). I just don't think scoring is the reason why Americans don't tune in to MLS. It's all a matter of personal preference.

[ylee0331]

yeah I never understood why Americans are not that into soccer. seems like everyone - everyone - in the world is into soccer.

[thepcv]

I find the boring argument mostly unfounded. It's perception. Take American Football (which I also love to watch). If the scoring system were changed to make touchdowns 1pt instead of 6 (or 7 with the field goal), our entire perception of how exciting the game is would instantly change. Instead of a team winning 21 to 14, the score'd be 3-2, and guess what the sounds a whole lot like.. Soccer. Perception, especially based on the amount of points we allot to a single score makes a huge difference.

Baseball (another sport I love) is a lot slower than pretty much any other sport, but the dynamic of baseball makes it easier to score runs/points--making it seem more exciting when, in fact, far less has happened.

Sure, some people might genuinely find the sport boring, but then, some people might find snowboarding lame or golf exhilarating. And I simply cannot relate to any of those opinions.

And Jerome, Yeah, I'm really hoping Torres makes a speedy recovery. Hearing he's likely to be out for knee surgery was pretty much crushing (especially if he ends up missing the World Cup, too).

I don't agree with this. It's not perception, but how the scoring system influences outcomes. More intricate scoring systems give rise to more strategic decisions throughout the course of a game (everything else being equal). This makes sports exciting. Take Bill Belichick's decision to go for it on fourth and two. If football was scored by ones, it would not have been nearly as interesting as this:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/11 ... colts.html

Edit: I'm not saying that soccer is inherently boring. I'm sure soccer is very strategic in its own unique ways (I'm not much of a soccer fan, but I do like the World Cup). I just don't think scoring is the reason why Americans don't tune in to MLS. It's all a matter of personal preference.

I'm definitely not denying personal preference. That certainly plays a huge role. And the addition of downs without a doubt makes a difference in strategy and suspense. In that way, it's the dynamic of the game that's different. The similar situation in soccer would be what the team chose to do on a corner kick or set piece.

I don't think scoring is the sole determinant, but I still feel it plays a role. Of course, I will freely admit that I'm mainly basing this decision on the fact that most people I run across that say soccer's boring point to the low scores that are prevalent in most soccer matches--which is why I'm making the perception argument (that said, I'll definitely agree with you about the added intensity that goes into something like a 4th and 2 call with the game on the line). My main point has more to do with the fact that the appearance of higher score numbers doesn't equate to greater levels of intensity and excitement; and lower numbers don't necessarily mean that something's going to be boring.

[thepcv]

yeah I never understood why Americans are not that into soccer. seems like everyone - everyone - in the world is into soccer.

I have a theory on this, but I'm sure it's probably wrong. As a country that's practiced isolationism for much of its history, i feel that focusing on more national versions of sports (baseball, basketball, football) has allowed us to fixate more on our national identity. Whereas now that we're starting to embrace globalism, we're also starting to embrace soccer at a much greater level (the MLS has progressively become significantly more popular over the last 10 years). It's just a theory, and I'm certainly willing to concede the point that I'm wrong on this one, but it just feels like it's something that can be attributed to globalism and our growing world roles (or, maybe it's just me living in a foreign country and being surrounded by people who follow exactly one sport: soccer).

[mshflyer]

Anyone living near or off Morman Trek?

yup i'm going to live near the mormon trek/w. benton intersection by the Fareway!

[traehekat]

Soccer suffers the same problem hockey does - there just isn't enough going on. They kick the ball around and a few times a game it goes in the back of the net. With sports like football, basketball, baseball, tennis, etc. there may not be more scoring plays (like in football, or even baseball), but there is a variety of things going on. In football, for example, interceptions, sacks, big runs, great catches, etc. are all just as exciting, if not more exciting in some cases, than the actual scoring. I just don't think sports like soccer or hockey have this kind of excitement. Baseball is the same thing - doubles, triples, great catches, robbing a home run, great pitching, etc. are all things that are just as interesting as the actual scoring. Tennis always has scoring, but points all develop in different ways, which makes it interesting.

[Yacht_Party]

I'm definitely not denying personal preference. That certainly plays a huge role. And the addition of downs without a doubt makes a difference in strategy and suspense. In that way, it's the dynamic of the game that's different. The similar situation in soccer would be what the team chose to do on a corner kick or set piece.

I don't think scoring is the sole determinant, but I still feel it plays a role. Of course, I will freely admit that I'm mainly basing this decision on the fact that most people I run across that say soccer's boring point to the low scores that are prevalent in most soccer matches--which is why I'm making the perception argument (that said, I'll definitely agree with you about the added intensity that goes into something like a 4th and 2 call with the game on the line). My main point has more to do with the fact that the appearance of higher score numbers doesn't equate to greater levels of intensity and excitement; and lower numbers don't necessarily mean that something's going to be boring.

Here is where we disagree...apologies for not making it clear earlier: I don't think people who cite those low scores equate low scoring directly to low excitement (that's just too sad to think about). I think what they're trying to refer to is the relatively simplistic scoring system and its effects, and that they don't perceive much to be going on. So the "boring" argument is a little less unfounded than simply "low scoring sucks."

[Yacht_Party]

I have a theory on this, but I'm sure it's probably wrong. As a country that's practiced isolationism for much of its history, i feel that focusing on more national versions of sports (baseball, basketball, football) has allowed us to fixate more on our national identity. Whereas now that we're starting to embrace globalism, we're also starting to embrace soccer at a much greater level (the MLS has progressively become significantly more popular over the last 10 years). It's just a theory, and I'm certainly willing to concede the point that I'm wrong on this one, but it just feels like it's something that can be attributed to globalism and our growing world roles (or, maybe it's just me living in a foreign country and being surrounded by people who follow exactly one sport: soccer).

I agree that this could be part of it. We're intensely individualistic, and want to have our own "thing." However, we've been embracing many facets of globalism for quite some time (see "outsourcing") and yet we haven't really embraced soccer, despite what I hear are rather trivial gains in popularity. Maybe the cultural aspect just lags a lot.

[thepcv]

I'm definitely not denying personal preference. That certainly plays a huge role. And the addition of downs without a doubt makes a difference in strategy and suspense. In that way, it's the dynamic of the game that's different. The similar situation in soccer would be what the team chose to do on a corner kick or set piece.

I don't think scoring is the sole determinant, but I still feel it plays a role. Of course, I will freely admit that I'm mainly basing this decision on the fact that most people I run across that say soccer's boring point to the low scores that are prevalent in most soccer matches--which is why I'm making the perception argument (that said, I'll definitely agree with you about the added intensity that goes into something like a 4th and 2 call with the game on the line). My main point has more to do with the fact that the appearance of higher score numbers doesn't equate to greater levels of intensity and excitement; and lower numbers don't necessarily mean that something's going to be boring.

Here is where we disagree...apologies for not making it clear earlier: I don't think people who cite those low scores equate low scoring directly to low excitement (that's just too sad to think about). I think what they're trying to refer to is the relatively simplistic scoring system and its effects, and that they don't perceive much to be going on. So the "boring" argument is a little less unfounded than simply "low scoring sucks."

I'll concede the simplistic scoring system (though that alone wouldn't explain a popularity difference between soccer and, say, baseball); but I simply have a hard time believing the "they don't perceive much to be going on" argument. And maybe that's simply because I'm too close to soccer (having played it most of my life). But I also know that the MLS has expanded consistently for the last three seasons, and the teams that have their own stadiums are now regularly selling out (not sure about this year--as I'm abroad, so if that trend's changed I wouldn't know).

The lack of perception argument there sounds a lot like the lack of perception argument that was made in the 90s about women and football (referring to the then stereotype that women didn't like football because they didn't understand it). I could, however, buy the lack of understanding argument. People, in general, who don't understand a sport/activity tend not to like it until they do. Once the rules and systems are defined for them, the level of enjoyment tends to rise.

Is that soccer's history in the US? I really have no idea (I feel it may play a role, but can't believe it's the whole reason that soccer has lagged behind in the US).

I will say, however, that perhaps we should move this thread more toward its original intent: Iowa, class of 2013, and ways to bond/get to know one another rather than focusing solely on why soccer isn't more popular than it currently is in America.

That said, anyone up for creating a law school outdoor (or indoor, for that matter) soccer team?

[Yacht_Party]

perhaps we should move this thread more toward its original intent: Iowa, class of 2013, and ways to bond/get to know one another rather than focusing solely on why soccer isn't more popular than it currently is in America.

That said, anyone up for creating a law school outdoor (or indoor, for that matter) soccer team?

Granted. /end debateslashdiscussion.

[traehekat]

That said, anyone up for creating a law school outdoor (or indoor, for that matter) soccer team?

I'll play, but only if I can play wide receiver or first base.

[Andrew the Wolverine]

That said, anyone up for creating a law school outdoor (or indoor, for that matter) soccer team?

I'll play, but only if I can play wide receiver or first base.

You're obviously not very smart. He said soccer, not football or baseball. That being said, I'm going to take out my 9 iron and score a field goal.

[Jerome]

I step out to go watch Iron Man 2, and look at what happens. Damn.

I certainly feel that one of the reasons soccer has not really taken hold in the US is because of American isolationism and exceptionalism. We don't typically let sports enjoyed by other countries gain a foot hold here (soccer, hockey, cricket, rugby, etc.). We like our homegrown sports, and that is fine (I am not a huge fan of any of the American sports, but that is a function of never playing them or growing up watching them), but I think we miss something by not inculcating more of an appreciation for other sports.

Soccer suffers the same problem hockey does - there just isn't enough going on. They kick the ball around and a few times a game it goes in the back of the net. With sports like football, basketball, baseball, tennis, etc. there may not be more scoring plays (like in football, or even baseball), but there is a variety of things going on. In football, for example, interceptions, sacks, big runs, great catches, etc. are all just as exciting, if not more exciting in some cases, than the actual scoring. I just don't think sports like soccer or hockey have this kind of excitement. Baseball is the same thing - doubles, triples, great catches, robbing a home run, great pitching, etc. are all things that are just as interesting as the actual scoring. Tennis always has scoring, but points all develop in different ways, which makes it interesting.

I totally disagree. As both a soccer and hockey fan (and player), I feel confident in saying that both sports have plenty going on. Watch a soccer game, and you will see literally hundred of permutations of positional play all over the pitch, from defensive posturing, to midfield construction, to anticipatory runs being made by forwards. And all of this depends on the circumstances of a given match. Watching the pass construction is far more than just 11 guys kicking the ball around haphazardly (at least in the good leagues). Beyond that there is an enormous amount of physical jockeying for control of prime position with other players to make one's self available for a pass, or to win possession of the ball. The much derided flopping of players in search of a favorable call is also one of my favorite aspects of the sport - criticizing the ref for botched calls or mis-application of the rules (especially in big games) and the ensuing debates always provide some very enjoyable moments. From a pure sporting perspective this is not why I love soccer, but it makes watching the games that much better. The lack of instant replay or challenges makes it all the more intense. Further, watching a brilliant player create a scoring opportunity, or take a chance to finish (score a goal) doesn't get much better. I love hockey, but with few exceptions, goals are just goals. Touchdowns (to me, the uninitiated) are usually all the same. Baskets scored are baskets scored. But watching Messi split five defenders, or bending a ball from 20 yards out into the top corner is an awesome spectacle. Seeing a goalie make a great stop, or a defender slide in for a killer tackle or block is just as exciting.

And it never gets better than in international competitions. For whatever the Super Bowl is, it is nothing compared to the World Cup or the Euros. I was in Madrid for Spain's 2008 Euro win, and it was greater pandemonium and a better party than the Broncos winning the Super Bowl or the Avs winning the Stanley Cup. I was up with the crowds until 7 a.m. and have never been to a better party (or had a worse hangover).

So in the spirit of not derailing this thread anymore (sorry...) I would very much like to grab some beers and catch a game or two with some non-soccer fans so long as someone will teach me the finer points of American football.

[Slimpee]

Soccer suffers the same problem hockey does - there just isn't enough going on.

See, I think Americans don't like hockey and soccer precisely because there is too much going on. In baseball, basketball, and football the play is furious for short spurts and within seconds the players stop, rest, play with themselves, whatever, before the next play or set of play begins.

Americans don't have the attention span for hockey, soccer, rugby, etc. Why do you think our sporting events are punctuated by piped in pop music, videos of people running into things, and Kiss Cams?

[Jerome]

[videos of people running into things

Isn't this an apt characterization of hockey? (So long as Philly is playing, of course)

[traehekat]

Soccer suffers the same problem hockey does - there just isn't enough going on.

See, I think Americans don't like hockey and soccer precisely because there is too much going on. In baseball, basketball, and football the play is furious for short spurts and within seconds the players stop, rest, play with themselves, whatever, before the next play or set of play begins.

Americans don't have the attention span for hockey, soccer, rugby, etc...

I was actually going to bring up that point as well. It's like we prefer a stoppage in play versus constant action. I guess what I meant by "more going on" is that there is just a variety of things that can happen. In soccer, all that really happens is there are some goals, which I will admit can be cool and some of the best top plays on SportsCenter come from soccer. Aside from that, what is really going on? Jerome mentioned defensive positioning, formations, pass construction, etc. But really, I just can't get worked up about that. It would be like getting excited by the defensive formation a team uses in the NFL - nobody really cares about that, they just want to see the sack/interception.

Look at it like this, if there was a top ten plays for just basketball, you are going to see dunks, dimes, blocks, buzzer beaters, alley-oops, etc. There is a large variety of different things that happen on the court that could be considered an entertaining play. A top ten plays for soccer is just going to be some variations on goals and saves.

Another interesting thought is that when you see a player dunk a basketball, or hit a home run, or throw a 55 yard pass, it seems like something you, as the viewer, can't really do. You see it and you are kind of mystified. But when you see a player kick a small ball into a giant net, it doesn't seem incredibly difficult. You can kind of convince yourself that you could do that. That kind of misses the point of entertainment.

[Jerome]

Soccer suffers the same problem hockey does - there just isn't enough going on.

See, I think Americans don't like hockey and soccer precisely because there is too much going on. In baseball, basketball, and football the play is furious for short spurts and within seconds the players stop, rest, play with themselves, whatever, before the next play or set of play begins.

Americans don't have the attention span for hockey, soccer, rugby, etc...

I was actually going to bring up that point as well. It's like we prefer a stoppage in play versus constant action. I guess what I meant by "more going on" is that there is just a variety of things that can happen. In soccer, all that really happens is there are some goals, which I will admit can be cool and some of the best top plays on SportsCenter come from soccer. Aside from that, what is really going on? Jerome mentioned defensive positioning, formations, pass construction, etc. But really, I just can't get worked up about that. It would be like getting excited by the defensive formation a team uses in the NFL - nobody really cares about that, they just want to see the sack/interception.

Look at it like this, if there was a top ten plays for just basketball, you are going to see dunks, dimes, blocks, buzzer beaters, alley-oops, etc. There is a large variety of different things that happen on the court that could be considered an entertaining play. A top ten plays for soccer is just going to be some variations on goals and saves.

Another interesting thought is that when you see a player dunk a basketball, or hit a home run, or throw a 55 yard pass, it seems like something you, as the viewer, can't really do. You see it and you are kind of mystified. But when you see a player kick a small ball into a giant net, it doesn't seem incredibly difficult. You can kind of convince yourself that you could do that. That kind of misses the point of entertainment.

I'll grant that not everyone will get excited to watch some really good soccer strategy. But as for soccer plays not being able to compete in terms of "holy shit" factor, tell me that these goals weren't of that quality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE8Xy0LD2os

(I STRONGLY suggest you mute it, though).

[Jerome]

Or these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFYXvfw8 ... re=related

(Can you tell I love Messi?)

[traehekat]

Or these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFYXvfw8 ... re=related

(Can you tell I love Messi?)

Yeah I mean, it ain't bad, but I'll still take a good ol' fashion dunk any day. I'm a pretty big sports fan though, and if you give me a side to root for I will get pumped about anything. Like someone said before, I think part of it is just not understanding the sport, so it is hard to get excited about it. I'm definitely down for watching some games, and I would be even more down for playing.

On a finishing note...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4XUH1lOwnE

Still one of the coolest things I have ever seen in my life.

[dt22]

ok guys, who cares.
new topic?

i have to get my widsom teeth out - now that's worth a discussion.
not really, but I'm terrified.

also, is anyone considering the france program right after 1L?

[MoS]

Does anyone think there is a benefit to doing one of their special programs (International and Comparative Law or Innovation, Business, and Law Program)?