Duke Class of 2013 Forum

[quakeroats]

but I am more than willing to talk yours or anyone elses ear off about my opinions of law school and the law in general.

Where do I sign up?

[prezidentv8]

...for some reason I never find out about this stuff until after the deadline...

You and me both. Maybe I need one o dem smart phones.

[Jericwithers]

Our class total is currently 239 (if the registration system can be trusted). Hopefully the schedules will be out soon. Unpacking has taken much more time than I thought it would, but it is so nice here! Those of you who aren't moving until a few days before orientation are really missing out.

[Bosque]

...for some reason I never find out about this stuff until after the deadline...

You and me both. Maybe I need one o dem smart phones.

Slow down, hot shot. First actually getting a car, and now considering getting a phone? Don't lose yourself in all this luxury man!

but I am more than willing to talk yours or anyone elses ear off about my opinions of law school and the law in general.

Where do I sign up?

Just find me during lunch, or whenever. So long as I am not in a suit or walking somewhere with purpose, I probably have time. Or you can shoot me an email, and I can find some time in the first week or so of class. OR if you don't have a mentor, let me know when the mentor time is and I can see if I am free then.

If you don't know who I am, outing me is easy enough. Just look through the exec board roster, I should be easy enough to spot. If you cannot figure it out after that, just PM me.

Wow, in retrospect I am INCREADIBLY easy to out. I have been careful about what I put up here, but maybe I should be more careful.

[Jericwithers]

Wow, in retrospect I am INCREADIBLY easy to out. I have been careful about what I put up here, but maybe I should be more careful.

I may be slow, but I still am not able to out you. I was also never able to find Waldo.

[prezidentv8]

...for some reason I never find out about this stuff until after the deadline...

You and me both. Maybe I need one o dem smart phones.

Slow down, hot shot. First actually getting a car, and now considering getting a phone? Don't lose yourself in all this luxury man!

I know, this is some crazy stuff. Not sure how my sense of luxury fits in with all these lawyer type people I'll be working with. I feel like I'll be driving a Honda and talking on a phone that came with my cell contract for free my whole life.

... I should be easy enough to spot. If you cannot figure it out after that, just PM me.

Wow, in retrospect I am INCREADIBLY easy to out. I have been careful about what I put up here, but maybe I should be more careful.

........

[thickfreakness]

Our class total is currently 239 (if the registration system can be trusted). Hopefully the schedules will be out soon. Unpacking has taken much more time than I thought it would, but it is so nice here! Those of you who aren't moving until a few days before orientation are really missing out.

Agreed. I've enjoyed exploring and shopping during the two full days I've had. Movers still haven't arrived yet, so I'm in an empty townhouse. Hopefully the stuff will be here Friday, otherwise I'm stuck until next week. In that case I might just head over to the beach for the weekend or something.

[Chairman]

How to get your copy of A Civil Action:

1. Sign up for Amazon Student (it's free) here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/student/signup/info
2. Order one of the many used copies for $4 with free, 2-day shipping here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/ ... ition=used

great stuff thanks

Agreed--great suggestion.

With the free Amazon Prime (from signing up for Amazon Student), I even got a pro-rated refund for my existing Prime membership. See...law school is paying off already.

Also, moving blows. Moving a 4 bedroom house with stuff for two kids is terrible.

[johndh]

One class is currently on ACES although it does not have a time or much information.

[Jericwithers]

One class is currently on ACES although it does not have a time or much information.

The class seems like a place holder for orientation. The same class was also on ACES briefly 2 months ago and is where I saw the class enrollment of 243, so since then 4 people have dropped.

Hope you get your furniture soon thick. If not, the beach sounds like a great alternative to unpacking.

When do the OCI interviews start? Good luck yall, and any info about the interview process you have time to share would be very interesting.

[johndh]

One class is currently on ACES although it does not have a time or much information.

The class seems like a place holder for orientation. The same class was also on ACES briefly 2 months ago and is where I saw the class enrollment of 243, so since then 4 people have dropped.

Hope you get your furniture soon thick. If not, the beach sounds like a great alternative to unpacking.

When do the OCI interviews start? Good luck yall, and any info about the interview process you have time to share would be very interesting.

I think you are in my LEAD group jericwithers

[Jericwithers]

One class is currently on ACES although it does not have a time or much information.

The class seems like a place holder for orientation. The same class was also on ACES briefly 2 months ago and is where I saw the class enrollment of 243, so since then 4 people have dropped.

Hope you get your furniture soon thick. If not, the beach sounds like a great alternative to unpacking.

When do the OCI interviews start? Good luck yall, and any info about the interview process you have time to share would be very interesting.

I think you are in my LEAD group jericwithers

Hah, yes we are. We are both very easy people to out, lol.

[los blancos]

Our class total is currently 239 (if the registration system can be trusted).

Ouch.

Wow, in retrospect I am INCREADIBLY easy to out. I have been careful about what I put up here, but maybe I should be more careful.

I may be slow, but I still am not able to out you. I was also never able to find Waldo.

--ImageRemoved--

[someones alt]

One class is currently on ACES although it does not have a time or much information.

The class seems like a place holder for orientation. The same class was also on ACES briefly 2 months ago and is where I saw the class enrollment of 243, so since then 4 people have dropped.

Hope you get your furniture soon thick. If not, the beach sounds like a great alternative to unpacking.

When do the OCI interviews start? Good luck yall, and any info about the interview process you have time to share would be very interesting.

I think you are in my LEAD group jericwithers

Hah, yes we are. We are both very easy people to out, lol.

Were we emailed our groups, or is it somewhere in ACES? I can't find it.

[johndh]

Our leader e-mailed us this morning.

[Jericwithers]

Our leader e-mailed us this morning.

Yup he was very quick to get in contact with us; seems like a nice guy. I will take him down in a game of Risk if the opportunity arises though.

@ your steroid waldo blanco

[Bosque]

Our leader e-mailed us this morning.

Yup he was very quick to get in contact with us; seems like a nice guy. I will take him down in a game of Risk if the opportunity arises though.

I'll be the judge of that. Who do you guys have as a leader? (PM me if you don't want to out him here)

Also, segment one of OCI is the 18th, 19th, and 20th of August. Bidding for segment 2 (which is smaller than segment 1) begins on the 10th, and those interviews will happen from the 26th, 27th, and Sept. 1st through the 3rd. Then we have segment 3, which is much smaller than the other two. Bidding for that begins the 30th, and interviews happen on Sept 15th through the 17th, 20th through the 22nd, and the 28th.

And before you get the wrong idea, the segments are just different periods of OCI. A firm in segment 1 is not going to necessarily be better of worse than one in segment 2. It is really just a scheduling thing. Although segment 3 seems to be made up of mostly government and non-profit jobs, but I think that is because they are on a different hiring timetable usually.

As far as interviews and interview programs in general though, I can answer questions about that already. I just got back from the Patent Law Interview Program (PLIP) in Chicago, which is essentially OCI over a more concentrated time period for people who want to work in Intellectual Property. So I have already done a bunch of screening interviews. Plus, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the hiring process on the whole. What do you guys want to know?

[quakeroats]

I have a pretty good understanding of the hiring process on the whole. What do you guys want to know?

1. How's OCI looking so far relative to prior years?
2. Could you venture a guess on how hiring is going to play out by tier (V10, V25, V50, etc.)?
3. How are students preparing for OCI feeling about their chances and the process?
4. Are happy days here again?

[Jericwithers]

Plus, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the hiring process on the whole. What do you guys want to know?

I am curious about how the interviews are conducted. Business school was 20% accounting & finance and 80% how to do good in an interview, so I am curious if firm OCI's are unique compared to regular non-legal job interviews (I assume IP interviews are very different because of the specalization).

[Bosque]

I have a pretty good understanding of the hiring process on the whole. What do you guys want to know?

1. How's OCI looking so far relative to prior years?
2. Could you venture a guess on how hiring is going to play out by tier (V10, V25, V50, etc.)?
3. How are students preparing for OCI feeling about their chances and the process?
4. Are happy days here again?

1. Better than last year (seems like right now at least), but not near the prebust levels yet by any stretch. Still, Duke seems to be doing well.

2. No frickin clue, I haven't analyzed it at all. Mostly because I don't care a whit about vault ranking (and neither should you). A job is a job is a job. If it pays the same, who cares what the Vault says about "prestige?" I am pretty sure the my top two favorite firms are not even IN the V100. (Just checked - yup. Not there. They are IP botiques, so it is not that surprising. Although Fish and Finnegan - also both excelent firms - are both in there.) Also, one of the V25 firms I interviewed for I suprisingly kinda hated (I won't say which one, and if they give me a call back I will try and go into the visit with an open mind hoping to be proven wrong about them).

Really, it should always come down to whether you like the firm and if you can see yourself thriving there. (Influencing factors would be the culture, the people in the group you will be working with, the way the firm is structured [how the partners are compensated drives the way the firm is run], the location, the clients you will be working with, how soon you will get the experience you want, ect.) That, and the ratio between billables required and the amount you will get paid are pretty much the only things you should care about. The firm "prestige" rankings mean absolutely nothing.

Sorry, I kind of went off on a rant there.

3. I guess it depends. I get the sense that all of the IP guys and gals are a little less worried than everyone else, but that has always been true (especially since we all go to PLIP). Some of my friends shooting for something really general (or who don't know what they want to do yet) in big markets like DC or New York seem a little more worried than most. But I think everyone has got it into their heads that they shouldn't be relying on OCI alone to get a job, so I don't think anyone will really be worying until October and November roll around and they have not recieved any call backs yet. Yes, you might get a job from OCI. But it is by no means the end all be all of finding a job for 2L summer. Especially since we are a full lottery system, I don't think anyone is counting too much on their chances.

4. Happy Days was canceled a long time ago. Let it go.

[paralegal]

I think I have a pretty good understanding of the hiring process on the whole. What do you guys want to know?

2. Could you venture a guess on how hiring is going to play out by tier (V10, V25, V50, etc.)?

I'm interested in this as well.

[paralegal]

Really, it should always come down to whether you like the firm and if you can see yourself thriving there. (Influencing factors would be the culture, the people in the group you will be working with, the way the firm is structured [how the partners are compensated drives the way the firm is run], the location, the clients you will be working with, how soon you will get the experience you want, ect.) That, and the ratio between billables required and the amount you will get paid are pretty much the only things you should care about. The firm "prestige" rankings mean absolutely nothing.

I certainly agree with this....all very important. However, the V20 (very distinguished) firm that I have had the pleasure of working for during the past two years has all of these qualities and then some....so I personally know that you can have both, quality of life at a firm with a prestigious Vault ranking.

[Bosque]

Plus, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the hiring process on the whole. What do you guys want to know?

I am curious about how the interviews are conducted. Business school was 20% accounting & finance and 80% how to do good in an interview, so I am curious if firm OCI's are unique compared to regular non-legal job interviews (I assume IP interviews are very different because of the specalization).

No, they are not. Or at least, it depends. I am probably going to be working in Patent Litigation. Most of my interviews seemed substantially the same as the screening interviews from the generalist firm I worked at this summer. The only one that was different was the firm that pegged me for prosecution (for the unaware, the guys who work on creating the patents). They asked me about the courses I took in Electrical Engineering and the technical areas I was familiar with.

Screening interviews are usually 20 minutes. You walk in, shake hands, sit down, give them the papers they want (resume, transcript, writing sample, occasionally references). Then you talk. Most try and split it about 2 to 1 between them asking you questions and you asking questions. Some typical topics that come up (and if they don't should be brought up by you) are what your previous work experience was like (especially your 1L summer job), anything and everything on your resume, what they should know about you that is not on your resume, why you applied to work at their firm specifically, what your connection to the city is (even if it is DC, NYC, or LA), what the structure of the firm is like, what the people there are like (spoiler: they are collegial), specifics as to the kind of work you can expect (for me, they all talked about the split between litigation and prosecution work), stuff like that. Then they may or may not tell you when to expect to hear back by, they hand you a business card (If they don't, ask for one. They are so helpful to keep track of who you talked to.), you shake hands, and they kick you out so they can do it again with the next person.

General tips: Overall, your goal should be to get them to forget this is an interview. You want them to enjoy talking to you, so that when they look back at the end of the day you stand out in a positive light. Try and get them talking about something unique for a few minutes so that they will remember you. If you are funny, be funny - just make sure it is appropriate humor. If you are not funny or only kind of funny, for God's sake don't try now.

Maintain eye contact, but not to a creepy amount. You should have a notepad out, but try and use it sparingly. You should really just be jotting down quick two or three word notes to remind you what questions occur to you while they are talking. The less you are down in your notepad, the more time you are engaging with the interviewer. Don't ask questions whose answers appear on the firm website, as it shows you didn't do very much research. NEVER ask about money or billable hours. If the say it unprompted, great, but otherwise that is what the NALP sheet is for.

Hmm... what else. Make sure you have a case, a portfolio, or some sort of professional looking bag. You don't want to have to keep your keys, wallet, phone, ect. in your pockets, and you need somewhere to stash they brochures and cards they give you.

Dress well of course. For guys, a dark gray or navy suit (you can get away with a black pinstripe), polished black or brown shoes (usually black, when in doubt go with a basic cap-toe), a light pressed shirt with no patterns or at least a non obtrusive one (*white*, light blue, off white, light gray, maybe a light green if you can pull it off, but when in doubt *white*), and a classy tie (no skinny ties, loud patterns, or bright neon colors. If you are wearing a nonwhite shirt, make sure the color is reflected somewhere in the tie without being overpowering. Also, when in doubt, go with the red power tie.). Also, you should try and make sure that the suit and shirt are a good fit. If you can get bespoke, great, if not at least make sure to hit up a tailor to get it adjusted. I have a tailor at home that only charges ten dollars or so to do it. No need to get the shirts tailored, but do make sure to try on fits from multiple brands to find the one that works best for you (fitted Arrow or fitted Van Huesen are my bread and butter). It may all seem like common sense, but you would be surprised at the number of people who show up for interviews in sneakers, or a seersucker suit they inherited from their grandfather which they are swimming in, or with no belt. Get someone else to look over what you are planning to wear before you do. These interviews are short, so what you wear and how you act plays a huge role in the interviewer's perception of you.

I will try and think of some more.

[Bosque]

Really, it should always come down to whether you like the firm and if you can see yourself thriving there. (Influencing factors would be the culture, the people in the group you will be working with, the way the firm is structured [how the partners are compensated drives the way the firm is run], the location, the clients you will be working with, how soon you will get the experience you want, ect.) That, and the ratio between billables required and the amount you will get paid are pretty much the only things you should care about. The firm "prestige" rankings mean absolutely nothing.

I certainly agree with this....all very important. However, the V20 (very distinguished) firm that I have had the pleasure of working for during the past two years has all of these qualities and then some....so I personally know that you can have both, quality of life at a firm with a prestigious Vault ranking.

Oh, of COURSE you can (Although not at Wachtell. One of the founding partners spoke at Duke this last year, and he bsically admitted that you need to have a spouse who can take care of your home for you, since you will never see it. They get paid for it though.). Don't misunderstand my meaning, there is nothing necessarily wrong with most of the firms in the V25, or V10. A lot of them ARE great places to work. But so are a lot of the firms in the rest of the V100 and beyond. The prestige ranking just doesn't really translate into anything tangible besides, well, prestige. And even then, it is arguable. As I said, what does prestige really matter anyway? If you go in thinking that the higher the vault ranking, the better the firm will be to work at, you are going to shoot yourself in the foot.

[quakeroats]

Really, it should always come down to whether you like the firm and if you can see yourself thriving there. (Influencing factors would be the culture, the people in the group you will be working with, the way the firm is structured [how the partners are compensated drives the way the firm is run], the location, the clients you will be working with, how soon you will get the experience you want, ect.) That, and the ratio between billables required and the amount you will get paid are pretty much the only things you should care about. The firm "prestige" rankings mean absolutely nothing.

I'd be the first to admit that the Vault rankings are not everything. However, they are a useful proxy for a schools ability to place its students well. They don't measure all the important metrics and even what the do measure, i.e., prestige, they do imperfectly. From what I've seen, Vault rankings are an easy way to distinguish between schools and to see if things have ameliorated (and by how much) since the bottom of the market.