Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI? Forum

[Anonymous User]

What are your plans?
I should mail out but it's hopeless anyways, and I'm absolutely so discourages and dejected that I can't do anything. For like the past week or so, since I got rejection letter from two least selective firms on my OCI schedule (both interviews which I killed), I haven't been able to eat or sleep or otherwise function normally.

[98234872348]

What are your plans?
I should mail out but it's hopeless anyways, and I'm absolutely so discourages and dejected that I can't do anything. For like the past week or so, since I got rejection letter from two least selective firms on my OCI schedule (both interviews which I killed), I haven't been able to eat or sleep or otherwise function normally.

Sorry.

[Danneskjöld]

Honest question: why do the expectations of T14ers and TTTers seem so different? That is, why do TTTers not care about their career prospects while T14ers see it as the end of the world to strike out at 2L OCI? Assuming both are paying full tuition (which seems like its often the case even at TTTs)

Just different expectations?

[Anonymous User]

Honest question: why do the expectations of T14ers and TTTers seem so different? That is, why do TTTers not care about their career prospects while T14ers see it as the end of the world to strike out at 2L OCI? Assuming both are paying full tuition (which seems like its often the case even at TTTs)

Just different expectations?

because i would otherwise have taken the full ride at a T20. A t14er paying full tuition generally makes that choice with a calculated risk of getting biglaw after graduation, which at least 2 years ago was a pretty wise decision.

besides, TTTers either (1) knew they faced a super uphill battle and weren't expecting much or (2) was falsely optimistic when deciding to make that investment, and still remain so.

[Danneskjöld]

Honest question: why do the expectations of T14ers and TTTers seem so different? That is, why do TTTers not care about their career prospects while T14ers see it as the end of the world to strike out at 2L OCI? Assuming both are paying full tuition (which seems like its often the case even at TTTs)

Just different expectations?

because i would otherwise have taken the full ride at a T20. A t14er paying full tuition generally makes that choice with a calculated risk of getting biglaw after graduation, which at least 2 years ago was a pretty wise decision.

besides, TTTers either (1) knew they faced a super uphill battle and weren't expecting much or (2) was falsely optimistic when deciding to make that investment, and still remain so.

Really? You think TTTers are optimistic after their first semester/year when they see the current 3Ls' difficulty? Presumably by the time they're 2Ls they know where they stand. Also, presumably they have been being screwed even before ITE. Just wonder why they don't seem as panic stricken over their predicament.

BTW sorry dude.

[Anonymous User]

Is it possible to strike out so early? First of all, T14's tend to do interviews really late. Some schools are still doing OCI's (like mine).

Also, have you gotten all rejections? A lot of firms just are not responding that quickly or putting people on ice while they do tiered callbacks. While everyone is accepting callbacks, there is no way that everyone who does a callback gets an offer or accepts all of their offers.

If some firms have not rejected you yet, perhaps you are still okay. Best of luck.

[Anonymous User]

Is it possible to strike out so early? First of all, T14's tend to do interviews really late. Some schools are still doing OCI's (like mine).

Also, have you gotten all rejections? A lot of firms just are not responding that quickly or putting people on ice while they do tiered callbacks. While everyone is accepting callbacks, there is no way that everyone who does a callback gets an offer or accepts all of their offers.

If some firms have not rejected you yet, perhaps you are still okay. Best of luck.

NU did theirs in like, beginning of August. Mich did theirs mid-August. Columbia and NYU started before that. It's been 2 weeks since we've been done.

I've been dinged from all but two. I know a couple who have literally finished striking out (that is, dings from all).

[tetrahydrocannabinol]

Honest question: why do the expectations of T14ers and TTTers seem so different? That is, why do TTTers not care about their career prospects while T14ers see it as the end of the world to strike out at 2L OCI? Assuming both are paying full tuition (which seems like its often the case even at TTTs)

Just different expectations?

TTTers are typically less well read. Many don't even understand or know about the biglaw hiring model (i.e. 2L SA is needed to get an offer for graduation, and that it is very typically of people to have jobs prior to taking the bar). They also don't understand the risk they are undergoing by attending law school and paying a shitton of money because loans are really easy to get and much harder to pay off. It is just entirely too easy at the age of 21 or 22 to pick and decide to go to a law school with unrealistic knowledge of how things are after school (with the wake up call coming when loan repayment starts-- just see jdunderground). It is understandable though in that most education is an investment towards your future and not just a huge gamble and risk. E.g. no one would seriously argue that a person should not attend non-top UG college and should simply rock their high school diploma because going to college is just too much of a risk. That's because even going to a shittier UG will equal a much better quality of life and employment prospects for the rest of your life. The same is not true of law school, which is something I don't think a lot of people understand.

[reasonable_man]

Honest question: why do the expectations of T14ers and TTTers seem so different? That is, why do TTTers not care about their career prospects while T14ers see it as the end of the world to strike out at 2L OCI? Assuming both are paying full tuition (which seems like its often the case even at TTTs)

Just different expectations?

TTTers are typically less well read. Many don't even understand or know about the biglaw hiring model (i.e. 2L SA is needed to get an offer for graduation, and that it is very typically of people to have jobs prior to taking the bar). They also don't understand the risk they are undergoing by attending law school and paying a shitton of money because loans are really easy to get and much harder to pay off. It is just entirely too easy at the age of 21 or 22 to pick and decide to go to a law school with unrealistic knowledge of how things are after school (with the wake up call coming when loan repayment starts-- just see jdunderground). It is understandable though in that most education is an investment towards your future and not just a huge gamble and risk. E.g. no one would seriously argue that a person should not attend non-top UG college and should simply rock their high school diploma because going to college is just too much of a risk. That's because even going to a shittier UG will equal a much better quality of life and employment prospects for the rest of your life. The same is not true of law school, which is something I don't think a lot of people understand.

Are you a dick head IRL? Just wondering..

[tetrahydrocannabinol]

Honest question: why do the expectations of T14ers and TTTers seem so different? That is, why do TTTers not care about their career prospects while T14ers see it as the end of the world to strike out at 2L OCI? Assuming both are paying full tuition (which seems like its often the case even at TTTs)

Just different expectations?

TTTers are typically less well read. Many don't even understand or know about the biglaw hiring model (i.e. 2L SA is needed to get an offer for graduation, and that it is very typically of people to have jobs prior to taking the bar). They also don't understand the risk they are undergoing by attending law school and paying a shitton of money because loans are really easy to get and much harder to pay off. It is just entirely too easy at the age of 21 or 22 to pick and decide to go to a law school with unrealistic knowledge of how things are after school (with the wake up call coming when loan repayment starts-- just see jdunderground). It is understandable though in that most education is an investment towards your future and not just a huge gamble and risk. E.g. no one would seriously argue that a person should not attend non-top UG college and should simply rock their high school diploma because going to college is just too much of a risk. That's because even going to a shittier UG will equal a much better quality of life and employment prospects for the rest of your life. The same is not true of law school, which is something I don't think a lot of people understand.

Are you a dick head IRL? Just wondering..

Yes, and
Are you a TTT grad IRL? Just wondering..

[spanktheduck]

Honest question: why do the expectations of T14ers and TTTers seem so different? That is, why do TTTers not care about their career prospects while T14ers see it as the end of the world to strike out at 2L OCI? Assuming both are paying full tuition (which seems like its often the case even at TTTs)

Just different expectations?

TTTers are typically less well read. Many don't even understand or know about the biglaw hiring model (i.e. 2L SA is needed to get an offer for graduation, and that it is very typically of people to have jobs prior to taking the bar). They also don't understand the risk they are undergoing by attending law school and paying a shitton of money because loans are really easy to get and much harder to pay off. It is just entirely too easy at the age of 21 or 22 to pick and decide to go to a law school with unrealistic knowledge of how things are after school (with the wake up call coming when loan repayment starts-- just see jdunderground). It is understandable though in that most education is an investment towards your future and not just a huge gamble and risk. E.g. no one would seriously argue that a person should not attend non-top UG college and should simply rock their high school diploma because going to college is just too much of a risk. That's because even going to a shittier UG will equal a much better quality of life and employment prospects for the rest of your life. The same is not true of law school, which is something I don't think a lot of people understand.

Are you a dick head IRL? Just wondering..

He has some point. Students at nonT14 are probably less knowledgealbe about biglaw hiring model. For example, I worked with someone over the summer who went to a T50 school. He wasn't even aware of what 2Ls did their second summer, let alone biglaw hiring model. This is probably a simple fact that most students at non T14 schools don't do SA programs and thus don't talk about it and also that few firms do OCI at the school (and if they do only hire the top of the class). This means (1) that many students don't know about the hiring model and thus don't care about not applying and (2), if they do know, don't really care that they missed it because it was never a realistic opportunity anyways (students at a T14 don't think a V100 firm is a realistic possiblity and thus are not really disappointed when it does not happen). Meanwhile a student at the T14 has been told his entire 1L year about working for a firm his second summer and as a result is very knowledgable about it. Additionally, for most students at T14, biglaw probably seemed as a likely possibilty, so when it doesn't happen they are devistated. For example: I went a state school. I am sure that the lesser amount of recruiting by investment banks over the past year had little impact on the students at my school. Very few, if any, ever worked at those places, so the fact that they hired even less, or no students, last hiring cycle meant little. The students had no expectations of working there so they had no expectations to be crushed, On the other hand, students at ivy leagues probably felt a lot worse about it because they viewed working there as a likely outcome.

[OperaSoprano]

Honest question: why do the expectations of T14ers and TTTers seem so different? That is, why do TTTers not care about their career prospects while T14ers see it as the end of the world to strike out at 2L OCI? Assuming both are paying full tuition (which seems like its often the case even at TTTs)

Just different expectations?

TTTers are typically less well read. Many don't even understand or know about the biglaw hiring model (i.e. 2L SA is needed to get an offer for graduation, and that it is very typically of people to have jobs prior to taking the bar). They also don't understand the risk they are undergoing by attending law school and paying a shitton of money because loans are really easy to get and much harder to pay off. It is just entirely too easy at the age of 21 or 22 to pick and decide to go to a law school with unrealistic knowledge of how things are after school (with the wake up call coming when loan repayment starts-- just see jdunderground). It is understandable though in that most education is an investment towards your future and not just a huge gamble and risk. E.g. no one would seriously argue that a person should not attend non-top UG college and should simply rock their high school diploma because going to college is just too much of a risk. That's because even going to a shittier UG will equal a much better quality of life and employment prospects for the rest of your life. The same is not true of law school, which is something I don't think a lot of people understand.

Are you a dick head IRL? Just wondering..

He has some point. Students at nonT14 are probably less knowledgealbe about biglaw hiring model. For example, I worked with someone over the summer who went to a T50 school. He wasn't even aware of what 2Ls did their second summer, let alone biglaw hiring model. This is probably a simple fact that most students at non T14 schools don't do SA programs and thus don't talk about it and also that few firms do OCI at the school (and if they do only hire the top of the class). This means (1) that many students don't know about the hiring model and thus don't care about not applying and (2), if they do know, don't really care that they missed it because it was never a realistic opportunity anyways (students at a T14 don't think a V100 firm is a realistic possiblity and thus are not really disappointed when it does not happen). Meanwhile a student at the T14 has been told his entire 1L year about working for a firm his second summer and as a result is very knowledgable about it. Additionally, for most students at T14, biglaw probably seemed as a likely possibilty, so when it doesn't happen they are devistated. For example: I went a state school. I am sure that the lesser amount of recruiting by investment banks over the past year had little impact on the students at my school. Very few, if any, ever worked at those places, so the fact that they hired even less, or no students, last hiring cycle meant little. The students had no expectations of working there so they had no expectations to be crushed, On the other hand, students at ivy leagues probably felt a lot worse about it because they viewed working there as a likely outcome.

Condescending and not true. Less likely to get a biglaw job =/= ignorant of how biglaw hiring works. I'm planning to do public interest work, am manifestly not at a T14, and I get the system as well as any other new 1L. It's ridiculous to claim that students at non T14 schools don't do the research, don't understand, or don't know what they are getting into. Of course TLSers are better informed than average law students, but I can assure you that my own classmates (on and off TLS) know the score. Those hoping for an SA job are quite nervous, but so are our friends uptown and downtown. The freakout is general at this point. It's gotten so bad that my friends at HYS are losing their composure. Ridiculous, but true all the same.

I think my fellow T30 students will handle this crisis with grace and equanimity, because we knew even during boom times that there were no guarantees. We never believed anything was going to be handed to us. Yeah, it will definitely suck, but we'll learn to make do until hiring picks up again. People may have to adjust their (biglaw) expectations, and find other legal work. We won't be alone, though. Neither will we be uninformed.

RE: Reasonable Man: He's been quite forthcoming about his legal education, and I know him to be successful, and working at a midlaw firm he very much enjoys. Plus he has time for a life, and he cares enough to come back here and advise current students. He's probably better read than most.

[m311]

OS- You turned his comment into a generalization for your own purposes, which is misleading. He's talking about a group and you're talking about individuals. Very basic lsat question.

His comment was not inaccurate or condescending. It is entirely rational for a person who doesn't have a prayer at biglaw to not study up on biglaw and to study up on any subject proportionately to how likely it is to affect them. Doesn't mean they're stupid. And the fact that TTTers are less well read on such matters is evidenced by their proportional representation on any law-related internet forums, lawschoolnumbers, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Condescending and not true. Less likely to get a biglaw job =/= ignorant of how biglaw hiring works. I'm planning to do public interest work, am manifestly not at a T14, and I get the system as well as any other new 1L. It's ridiculous to claim that students at non T14 schools don't do the research, don't understand, or don't know what they are getting into. Of course TLSers are better informed than average law students, but I can assure you that my own classmates (on and off TLS) know the score. Those hoping for an SA job are quite nervous, but so are our friends uptown and downtown. The freakout is general at this point. It's gotten so bad that my friends at HYS are losing their composure. Ridiculous, but true all the same.

I think my fellow T30 students will handle this crisis with grace and equanimity, because we knew even during boom times that there were no guarantees. We never believed anything was going to be handed to us. Yeah, it will definitely suck, but we'll learn to make do until hiring picks up again. People may have to adjust their (biglaw) expectations, and find other legal work. We won't be alone, though. Neither will we be uninformed.

RE: Reasonable Man: He's been quite forthcoming about his legal education, and I know him to be successful, and working at a midlaw firm he very much enjoys. Plus he has time for a life, and he cares enough to come back here and advise current students. He's probably better read than most.

I bet your fellow T30 students have no idea what equanimity is. I bet most T10 people have no idea what it is. I bet most Ellis don't know what it is. What is it anyway?

How do you know what T30 students know anyhow? You speak like an expert but you've been in law school what....1 or 2 weeks? You've been cruising around all the T30 schools taking the temperature? How do you know that it's not true? How do you know that even at Fordham 2Ls aren't flipping out? Because they aren't running rabid in the halls and slitting their wrists?

[Anonymous User]

Condescending and not true. Less likely to get a biglaw job =/= ignorant of how biglaw hiring works. I'm planning to do public interest work, am manifestly not at a T14, and I get the system as well as any other new 1L. It's ridiculous to claim that students at non T14 schools don't do the research, don't understand, or don't know what they are getting into. Of course TLSers are better informed than average law students, but I can assure you that my own classmates (on and off TLS) know the score. Those hoping for an SA job are quite nervous, but so are our friends uptown and downtown. The freakout is general at this point. It's gotten so bad that my friends at HYS are losing their composure. Ridiculous, but true all the same.

I think my fellow T30 students will handle this crisis with grace and equanimity, because we knew even during boom times that there were no guarantees. We never believed anything was going to be handed to us. Yeah, it will definitely suck, but we'll learn to make do until hiring picks up again. People may have to adjust their (biglaw) expectations, and find other legal work. We won't be alone, though. Neither will we be uninformed.

RE: Reasonable Man: He's been quite forthcoming about his legal education, and I know him to be successful, and working at a midlaw firm he very much enjoys. Plus he has time for a life, and he cares enough to come back here and advise current students. He's probably better read than most.

I bet your fellow T30 students have no idea what equanimity is. I bet most T10 people have no idea what it is. I bet most Ellis don't know what it is. What is it anyway?

How do you know what T30 students know anyhow? You speak like an expert but you've been in law school what....1 or 2 weeks? You've been cruising around all the T30 schools taking the temperature? How do you know that it's not true? How do you know that even at Fordham 2Ls aren't flipping out? Because they aren't running rabid in the halls and slitting their wrists?

Cognitive dissonance much?

[06072010]

There is rampant abuse of the anonymous feature in this thread. If you're not revealing employment information or job prospects you are on notice. Using the anonymous feature to talk trash and not have any of it linked to your main moniker is not the purpose. Knock it off, please.

[neskerdoo]

crap... I know I responded to this thread, but I don't see it. If "Remember that OS likes to pretend she has lots of friends and a clue" was posted as anonymous and thus removed, I apologize

[Anonymous User]

I think T14ers hear more about the process through upperclassmen and derive their expectations from that.

Also, I think a lot of people (probably the majority) don't understand law school recruiting when they pick their schools. I hadn't found TLS or AutoAdmit or anything like that when I chose my law school. I almost picked a T30 in a geographic area that I liked over a T14, and picked a lower T14 over a T6, assuming based on the data w/ median salaries etc that all the schools had similar employment prospects so just went after quality of life. I knew the T30 was more regional, but assumed that it did just as well as anyone else for that market.
While I didn't strike out at OCI, I didn't do that well. I get depressed hearing people who did worse than me at CCN (as in median v. top fifth) getting the callbacks and jobs that were my top choices. granted, my personality is not awesome, but numbers make a big difference.

Anyways, sulking aside, I think that people who end up at non-T14s probably just don't go to sites like this, or they'd know that it generally wasn't worth it. There are a significant number of people out there who don't go to the best school that they get in, and I think that's largely because of a lack of useful knowledge offered by the schools and by the students, especially at the TTT schools who don't want to admit that there's no employment for them. It's a cycle - nobody at the school knows they should have aimed higher, and they don't pass that knowledge on to the next year of students. My 2 cents (and my sulking. ughhh).
Edited to note that people who are at the top of their T25 classes who are losing their jobs to people like me probably should be equally frustrated if not more...I'm sure those people are smarter than most everyone at T14s, but are just going to get burned ITE.

[mr.undroppable]

I think my fellow T30 students will handle this crisis with grace and equanimity, because we knew even during boom times that there were no guarantees. We never believed anything was going to be handed to us. Yeah, it will definitely suck, but we'll learn to make do until hiring picks up again. People may have to adjust their (biglaw) expectations, and find other legal work. We won't be alone, though. Neither will we be uninformed.

Are you a real person? Do you really think the miserable bastards at Fordham who got rejected from every single T14, but thought they still had a chance at biglaw by paying full price at Fordham because it has a good reputation in New York, are handling things well right now? Better question, do you think 3Ls with no jobs are going to confide in 1Ls with the kind of attitude you have? There are people on law reviews in the T14 who got no offered and will face unemployment when they graduate. While everything will be alright in the sense that people will not be starving to death many many people have had their professional goals completely flipped upside down through no fault of their own.

Sulking definitely does not help, neither does self pity, but self righteous 1Ls telling people who have no way to pay off their loans right now not to worry is beyond ridiculous. How would you feel if all of a sudden non-profits, or whatever it is that you want to do, started shutting down and only hired law review types from T14 and you were forced to do some shit job you had never planned on?

Equanimity? Seriously?

[schnecke]

I think my fellow T30 students will handle this crisis with grace and equanimity, because we knew even during boom times that there were no guarantees. We never believed anything was going to be handed to us. Yeah, it will definitely suck, but we'll learn to make do until hiring picks up again. People may have to adjust their (biglaw) expectations, and find other legal work. We won't be alone, though. Neither will we be uninformed.

Are you a real person? Do you really think the miserable bastards at Fordham who got rejected from every single T14, but thought they still had a chance at biglaw by paying full price at Fordham because it has a good reputation in New York, are handling things well right now? Better question, do you think 3Ls with no jobs are going to confide in 1Ls with the kind of attitude you have? There are people on law reviews in the T14 who got no offered and will face unemployment when they graduate. While everything will be alright in the sense that people will not be starving to death many many people have had their professional goals completely flipped upside down through no fault of their own.

Sulking definitely does not help, neither does self pity, but self righteous 1Ls telling people who have no way to pay off their loans right now not to worry is beyond ridiculous. How would you feel if all of a sudden non-profits, or whatever it is that you want to do, started shutting down and only hired law review types from T14 and you were forced to do some shit job you had never planned on?

Equanimity? Seriously?

this.

I also like how she says she and her "fellow T30 students" (such an arbitrary distinction, btw) knew "even during boom times that there were no guarantees." Like someone said above, she's been in law school for 2 weeks. Please.

We never believed anything was going to be handed to us.

Also a great line. Are you implying that the people who, in many cases, worked harder than you for better grades and test scores DO expect things to be handed to them?

[reasonable_man]

Honest question: why do the expectations of T14ers and TTTers seem so different? That is, why do TTTers not care about their career prospects while T14ers see it as the end of the world to strike out at 2L OCI? Assuming both are paying full tuition (which seems like its often the case even at TTTs)

Just different expectations?

TTTers are typically less well read. Many don't even understand or know about the biglaw hiring model (i.e. 2L SA is needed to get an offer for graduation, and that it is very typically of people to have jobs prior to taking the bar). They also don't understand the risk they are undergoing by attending law school and paying a shitton of money because loans are really easy to get and much harder to pay off. It is just entirely too easy at the age of 21 or 22 to pick and decide to go to a law school with unrealistic knowledge of how things are after school (with the wake up call coming when loan repayment starts-- just see jdunderground). It is understandable though in that most education is an investment towards your future and not just a huge gamble and risk. E.g. no one would seriously argue that a person should not attend non-top UG college and should simply rock their high school diploma because going to college is just too much of a risk. That's because even going to a shittier UG will equal a much better quality of life and employment prospects for the rest of your life. The same is not true of law school, which is something I don't think a lot of people understand.

Are you a dick head IRL? Just wondering..

Yes, and
Are you a TTT grad IRL? Just wondering..

I am a TTT grad IRL and doing quite well for myself. Duly employed and working for a good firm in NYC... Lots of T14ers out there that can't say that these days.. Whats your lot in life? 0L or 1L?

[shadowfish]

Anyone else note this WSJ Law Blog post?

[dresden doll]

Lots of misunderstandings going on ITT....

[Helmholtz]

Lots of misunderstandings going on ITT....

If that was an insult towards reasonable_man, then I think you may be out of line.

[starstruck393]

To those arguing that non T14 students have no clue about the biglaw hiring model and SAing, is there any proof to back this up?