Loeb and Loeb cancells future summer programs Forum

[Mr. Matlock]

And the hits just keep on coming. From ATL:

--LinkRemoved--

Canceled Summer Program Watch: Loeb & Loeb New York Doesn't Want Summers

Friday, August 21, 2009 4:56 PM - By Elie Mystal

Sure, firms can try to dump their bad news on a summer Friday, but Above the Law is open 24/7.

Today, emails started going around to rising 2Ls who were seeking interviews with Loeb & Loeb's New York office. They were not happy emails:

Thank you for your letter and resume inquiring about the possibility of employment at our firm.

In moving forward with our hiring efforts for the coming season and for the future, we have given a great deal of thought to the needs of the partners and associates in servicing our clients. In reviewing our client base and the matters that we are handling, we have come to the conclusion that in order to provide the level of sophistication and complexity required to service these clients, it will be necessary for us to recruit at a more senior level. We have reexamined our hiring efforts, and, in so doing, have determined to suspend the New York summer associate program for the foreseeable future. We intend to focus our hiring efforts on identifying associates with those levels of experience and practice specialties that will best enable us to meet the challenges of servicing our clients. If at any future time we feel that our needs and those of our clients would best be served by having a summer associate program, we will reinstate the program.

We very much appreciate your interest in Loeb & Loeb LLP and wish you every success in finding a satisfactory position.

Wow. That doesn't even sound like the firm has decided to temporarily ratchet back recruiting because of the recession. "If at any future time we feel that our needs and those of our clients would best be served by having a summer associate program, we will reinstate the program," sounds a lot more like the firm's New York office has decided to totally dispense with the notion of hiring summers, indefinitely.

Is this a small glimpse of the future? The class of 2012 better hope not.

[ruleser]

Sounds like it may be (a glimpse of the future.) If I were a hiring person, summer associate programs don't make sense - you pay way too much upfront, and most of the people leave in a few years. I don't know that I wouldn't hire people straight out of school, but I would change the model so you just truly hire a few top quality people and mentor them and treat them in a way that will make it more likely they stay. The other model would be let people gain experience in smaller/mid-size firms and earn their way to big law.

Schools may have to change their teaching, as some are - people may need to truly come out of school not just fully trained in a practical sense, but with a resume - just like teachers do student teaching. Gone may be highly paid summers/starting sals, it may be what everyone else is stuck with - free interning to start out while in school Dr.s do residencies, why shouldn't lawyers?

I would say though, high-ranked students at T10 still may be in such demand they may have different rules.

[GATORTIM]

Posts like this make me feel good about droppin' a $100k on an education I could have gotten for $1.75 in late fees at the public library. I don't think we all realize just how shitty our option are becoming.

[kritiosboy]

.

[GATORTIM]

Posts like this make me feel good about droppin' a $100k on an education I could have gotten for $1.75 in late fees at the public library. I don't think we all realize just how shitty our option are becoming.

Yes, maybe we are one of the last few classes where $60k/year to attend seems to make any economic sense. On the other hand, it might be that these firms who are departing from the recent conventional biglaw model might be at a competitive disadvantage in the future and they might be compelled by economic reality to re-instate their summer program, the huge salaries, etc.

I hope you are right...for all of our sake

[rondemarino]

Yes, maybe we are one of the last few classes where $60k/year to attend seems to make any economic sense. On the other hand, it might be that these firms who are departing from the recent conventional biglaw model might be at a competitive disadvantage in the future and they might be compelled by economic reality to re-instate their summer program, the huge salaries, etc.

Ding, ding, ding... we have a winner. This ^^. Short of collusion, there is always going to be competitive pressure for the top firms to recruit the gold-plated J.Ds. The 'wow factor' of a top notch degree, fairly or unfairly, helps bring in clients. Shiny diplomas are a good enough proxy for people who know jack shit about what to look for in a firm's work product. Will summer associate positions begin to pay less? Sure. $3500/wk is ridiculous. But so is tuition @ $50k per year. We'll still have overpaid gigs to look forward during our 2L summer.

[Mr. Matlock]

Yes, maybe we are one of the last few classes where $60k/year to attend seems to make any economic sense. On the other hand, it might be that these firms who are departing from the recent conventional biglaw model might be at a competitive disadvantage in the future and they might be compelled by economic reality to re-instate their summer program, the huge salaries, etc.

Ding, ding, ding... we have a winner. This ^^. Short of collusion, there is always going to be competitive pressure for the top firms to recruit the gold-plated J.Ds. The 'wow factor' of a top notch degree, fairly or unfairly, helps bring in clients. Shiny diplomas are a good enough proxy for people who know jack shit about what to look for in a firm's work product. Will summer associate positions begin to pay less? Sure. $3500/wk is ridiculous. But so is tuition @ $50k per year. We'll still have overpaid gigs to look forward during our 2L summer.

I'm not so sure this is factual anymore. Sure, at one time businesses may have been "wowed" by this practice. But in this day and age, who's to say a companies performance indicators aren't yielding a bigger sword to prospective clients? How can it be quantified that it's even been a draw in the past 10 years or so. It's just something that had always been done.

I have no idea. I'm just putting it out there. Loeb and Loeb may see something we don't.

[TheJudge]

This certianly is upsetting but let's not jump to conclusions here. To claim that summer programs are done for is a little exaggerated just because one firm did it.

While I am a little nervous about the whole LS thing, I think one should not be too concerned when you accept a few assumptions as true. First of all, I strongly assume that within the forseeable future, the economy will recover to a substantial degree and with it will revive the legal sector as well. Naturally this will also increase the demand for new associates, unless of course the "burn rate" of new associates is somehow reduced to 0 and everyone who enters biglaw stays on until he/she retires. This, IMO, is unrealistic. Therefore demand for LS grads will pick up in the forseeable future. Whether or not all 1st year associates will be hired through summer programs or through other means is of course open for debate. But as someone already pointed out, economic realities and the need to be competitive in the market place will likely force firms to pouch legal talent as early as possible.

[Anonymous User]

Yes, maybe we are one of the last few classes where $60k/year to attend seems to make any economic sense. On the other hand, it might be that these firms who are departing from the recent conventional biglaw model might be at a competitive disadvantage in the future and they might be compelled by economic reality to re-instate their summer program, the huge salaries, etc.

Ding, ding, ding... we have a winner. This ^^. Short of collusion, there is always going to be competitive pressure for the top firms to recruit the gold-plated J.Ds. The 'wow factor' of a top notch degree, fairly or unfairly, helps bring in clients. Shiny diplomas are a good enough proxy for people who know jack shit about what to look for in a firm's work product. Will summer associate positions begin to pay less? Sure. $3500/wk is ridiculous. But so is tuition @ $50k per year. We'll still have overpaid gigs to look forward during our 2L summer.

I'm not so sure this is factual anymore. Sure, at one time businesses may have been "wowed" by this practice. But in this day and age, who's to say a companies performance indicators aren't yielding a bigger sword to prospective clients? How can it be quantified that it's even been a draw in the past 10 years or so. It's just something that had always been done.

I have no idea. I'm just putting it out there. Loeb and Loeb may see something we don't.

4 words: document review in India.

What it comes down to is

This certianly is upsetting but let's not jump to conclusions here. To claim that summer programs are done for is a little exaggerated just because one firm did it.

While I am a little nervous about the whole LS thing, I think one should not be too concerned when you accept a few assumptions as true. First of all, I strongly assume that within the forseeable future, the economy will recover to a substantial degree and with it will revive the legal sector as well.

If the economy were to just go back to what it was, there would only be some change - I am of the school that the bad economic news/fundamental change of the economy has just begun - decades of outsourcing/free trade/offshoring, etc. have changed things permanently.

[rondemarino]

If the economy were to just go back to what it was, there would only be some change - I am of the school that the bad economic news/fundamental change of the economy has just begun - decades of outsourcing/free trade/offshoring, etc. have changed things permanently.

Was the anonymity so that we wouldn't roll our eyes when we saw that your were one of those lawschoolscam people?

[GeePee]

If the economy were to just go back to what it was, there would only be some change - I am of the school that the bad economic news/fundamental change of the economy has just begun - decades of outsourcing/free trade/offshoring, etc. have changed things permanently.

This useless and ill-informed comment begs to have the user outed...

[rondemarino]

If the economy were to just go back to what it was, there would only be some change - I am of the school that the bad economic news/fundamental change of the economy has just begun - decades of outsourcing/free trade/offshoring, etc. have changed things permanently.

This useless and ill-informed comment begs to have the user outed...

It begs, but it would destroy confidence in the feature, rendering it useless.

[ruleser]

If the economy were to just go back to what it was, there would only be some change - I am of the school that the bad economic news/fundamental change of the economy has just begun - decades of outsourcing/free trade/offshoring, etc. have changed things permanently.

This useless and ill-informed comment begs to have the user outed...

It begs, but it would destroy confidence in the feature, rendering it useless.

Um, it was anonymous just because this entry is in some weird forum I guess and I clicked some weird button I guess that makes it anonymous. I make this claim openly, as I have before, and will gladly defend it - the economy is one topic I've been right about while others have been wrong for years...

[98234872348]

If the economy were to just go back to what it was, there would only be some change - I am of the school that the bad economic news/fundamental change of the economy has just begun - decades of outsourcing/free trade/offshoring, etc. have changed things permanently.

This useless and ill-informed comment begs to have the user outed...

It begs, but it would destroy confidence in the feature, rendering it useless.

There are particular rules for the feature that are delineated at the top of the form, which were violated by this post. I fail to see how economic predictions are "sensitive employment related information" unless you give the phrase a broad interpretation...

[Anonymous User]

Yes, maybe we are one of the last few classes where $60k/year to attend seems to make any economic sense. On the other hand, it might be that these firms who are departing from the recent conventional biglaw model might be at a competitive disadvantage in the future and they might be compelled by economic reality to re-instate their summer program, the huge salaries, etc.

Ding, ding, ding... we have a winner. This ^^. Short of collusion, there is always going to be competitive pressure for the top firms to recruit the gold-plated J.Ds. The 'wow factor' of a top notch degree, fairly or unfairly, helps bring in clients. Shiny diplomas are a good enough proxy for people who know jack shit about what to look for in a firm's work product. Will summer associate positions begin to pay less? Sure. $3500/wk is ridiculous. But so is tuition @ $50k per year. We'll still have overpaid gigs to look forward during our 2L summer.

I'm not so sure this is factual anymore. Sure, at one time businesses may have been "wowed" by this practice. But in this day and age, who's to say a companies performance indicators aren't yielding a bigger sword to prospective clients? How can it be quantified that it's even been a draw in the past 10 years or so. It's just something that had always been done.

I have no idea. I'm just putting it out there. Loeb and Loeb may see something we don't.

4 words: document review in India.

What it comes down to is

This certianly is upsetting but let's not jump to conclusions here. To claim that summer programs are done for is a little exaggerated just because one firm did it.

While I am a little nervous about the whole LS thing, I think one should not be too concerned when you accept a few assumptions as true. First of all, I strongly assume that within the forseeable future, the economy will recover to a substantial degree and with it will revive the legal sector as well.

If the economy were to just go back to what it was, there would only be some change - I am of the school that the bad economic news/fundamental change of the economy has just begun - decades of outsourcing/free trade/offshoring, etc. have changed things permanently.

Ehh, yeah, I guess I didn't realize that you wanted to use your law degree to get a job in the NC shirt manufactuirng industry. Also, thinking about it, I keep reading more and more articles in the NYTimes and the WSJ about all those Bangladeshis and Chinese doing all the high profile legal work on Wall Street for us. I guess you are right, the legal industry is dying!

[06072010]

If the economy were to just go back to what it was, there would only be some change - I am of the school that the bad economic news/fundamental change of the economy has just begun - decades of outsourcing/free trade/offshoring, etc. have changed things permanently.

This useless and ill-informed comment begs to have the user outed...

It begs, but it would destroy confidence in the feature, rendering it useless.

See, that's where you're wrong. Everyone has a pretty good idea (even the poster) when they're not using it right.

[06072010]

Ok, people are not using the anonymous feature according to the rules above. To those in this thread not using this correctly (such as cleverguy posting about NC shirtmaking, etc) you are over the line and a future infraction will lead to outing, warning, banning, etc.

[ruleser]

Ehh, yeah, I guess I didn't realize that you wanted to use your law degree to get a job in the NC shirt manufactuirng industry. Also, thinking about it, I keep reading more and more articles in the NYTimes and the WSJ about all those Bangladeshis and Chinese doing all the high profile legal work on Wall Street for us. I guess you are right, the legal industry is dying!

Um, I guess you haven't heard about outsourcing of legal work to places like India - it's not a joke, it's real. Why pay you six-figures when they can e-mail documents over and pay next to nothing.

Computer programming is another profession now over there (try to buy Norton's new 360 product - it doesn't work, and you will get trapped in hell with hours of online chat and callbacks from people you can't understand who remote control your computer from across the world.)

[GeePee]

Ehh, yeah, I guess I didn't realize that you wanted to use your law degree to get a job in the NC shirt manufactuirng industry. Also, thinking about it, I keep reading more and more articles in the NYTimes and the WSJ about all those Bangladeshis and Chinese doing all the high profile legal work on Wall Street for us. I guess you are right, the legal industry is dying!

Um, I guess you haven't heard about outsourcing of legal work to places like India - it's not a joke, it's real. Why pay you six-figures when they can e-mail documents over and pay next to nothing.

Computer programming is another profession now over there (try to buy Norton's new 360 product - it doesn't work, and you will get trapped in hell with hours of online chat and callbacks from people you can't understand who remote control your computer from across the world.)

Okay... Unless you're graduating from the bottom of your class or are attending a TTT, mindless first-level document review is not a fate that many legal graduates have to really worry about. This is especially true on a site like TLS where the majority of users will be going to T1 schools.

Cyclical growth of markets has occurred for years, a phenomenon which includes the legal market. Why should we believe that this time around will be considerably different? The spread of legal outsourcing further than first-level doc rev is also unlikely considering the nature of litigation... Does it really seem viable to have someone in India prepping your witnesses?

Bottom Line: Outsourcing is NOT the problem which will topple the legal market. Please stop living in fear of your livelihood

EDIT: Oh yeah and can you (or could you, before this impending doom you speak of) find me one of them doc review jobs where I get paid 6 figures? Sounds pretty tasty.

[ruleser]

Ehh, yeah, I guess I didn't realize that you wanted to use your law degree to get a job in the NC shirt manufactuirng industry. Also, thinking about it, I keep reading more and more articles in the NYTimes and the WSJ about all those Bangladeshis and Chinese doing all the high profile legal work on Wall Street for us. I guess you are right, the legal industry is dying!

Um, I guess you haven't heard about outsourcing of legal work to places like India - it's not a joke, it's real. Why pay you six-figures when they can e-mail documents over and pay next to nothing.

Computer programming is another profession now over there (try to buy Norton's new 360 product - it doesn't work, and you will get trapped in hell with hours of online chat and callbacks from people you can't understand who remote control your computer from across the world.)

Okay... Unless you're graduating from the bottom of your class or are attending a TTT, mindless first-level document review is not a fate that many legal graduates have to really worry about. This is especially true on a site like TLS where the majority of users will be going to T1 schools.

Cyclical growth of markets has occurred for years, a phenomenon which includes the legal market. Why should we believe that this time around will be considerably different? The spread of legal outsourcing further than first-level doc rev is also unlikely considering the nature of litigation... Does it really seem viable to have someone in India prepping your witnesses?

Bottom Line: Outsourcing is NOT the problem which will topple the legal market. Please stop living in fear of your livelihood

EDIT: Oh yeah and can you (or could you, before this impending doom you speak of) find me one of them doc review jobs where I get paid 6 figures? Sounds pretty tasty.

People who got big law did doc review as part of their work - now, fewer big law jobs...

But you're missing the big picture, and this is what has made this collapse possible - if you just consider some top jobs existing in some vacuum, then maybe doc review jobs that pay less might not seem important to you. But reality is, the businesses that patronize big law don't exist if people at mid-size firms lose their jobs, etc. 2/3 of the economy is consumer spending. If the bottom and middle crumble - ie, first factory jobs, then service jobs, then legal jobs, then computer jobs - the top will fall as well. Outsourcing/free trade are the problem that will topple the economy, and the crumbling economy will topple the legal market.

Businesses didn't think about this when they go over to China/India/Mexico - they may save 30% in expenses, but they lose 100% in possible revenue, which is a -70%. Like you were saying about top legal jobs, if people just look out for their little portion as if it exists in a vacuum, it doesn't seem a big deal. When you realize it's all part of a whole, you get the idea, and you see what's coming...

[neskerdoo]

um, according to NALP, Loeb has not hired summers for at least three years running... this doesn't seem to be much of a big deal...

[06072010]

Ehh, yeah, I guess I didn't realize that you wanted to use your law degree to get a job in the NC shirt manufactuirng industry. Also, thinking about it, I keep reading more and more articles in the NYTimes and the WSJ about all those Bangladeshis and Chinese doing all the high profile legal work on Wall Street for us. I guess you are right, the legal industry is dying!

Um, I guess you haven't heard about outsourcing of legal work to places like India - it's not a joke, it's real. Why pay you six-figures when they can e-mail documents over and pay next to nothing.

Computer programming is another profession now over there (try to buy Norton's new 360 product - it doesn't work, and you will get trapped in hell with hours of online chat and callbacks from people you can't understand who remote control your computer from across the world.)

Okay... Unless you're graduating from the bottom of your class or are attending a TTT, mindless first-level document review is not a fate that many legal graduates have to really worry about. This is especially true on a site like TLS where the majority of users will be going to T1 schools.

Cyclical growth of markets has occurred for years, a phenomenon which includes the legal market. Why should we believe that this time around will be considerably different? The spread of legal outsourcing further than first-level doc rev is also unlikely considering the nature of litigation... Does it really seem viable to have someone in India prepping your witnesses?

Bottom Line: Outsourcing is NOT the problem which will topple the legal market. Please stop living in fear of your livelihood

EDIT: Oh yeah and can you (or could you, before this impending doom you speak of) find me one of them doc review jobs where I get paid 6 figures? Sounds pretty tasty.

you don't know what you are talking about, bud. I certainly did document review at biglaw this summer and so did real associates. You may be confusing "contract" attorney with document review. Biglaw lawyers do document review / dillegence -- no doubt about it. The bolded is especially retarded. A T1 law school doesn't save you from document review, being a contract attorney, or the poor job market out there.

[GeePee]

Ehh, yeah, I guess I didn't realize that you wanted to use your law degree to get a job in the NC shirt manufactuirng industry. Also, thinking about it, I keep reading more and more articles in the NYTimes and the WSJ about all those Bangladeshis and Chinese doing all the high profile legal work on Wall Street for us. I guess you are right, the legal industry is dying!

Um, I guess you haven't heard about outsourcing of legal work to places like India - it's not a joke, it's real. Why pay you six-figures when they can e-mail documents over and pay next to nothing.

Computer programming is another profession now over there (try to buy Norton's new 360 product - it doesn't work, and you will get trapped in hell with hours of online chat and callbacks from people you can't understand who remote control your computer from across the world.)

Okay... Unless you're graduating from the bottom of your class or are attending a TTT, mindless first-level document review is not a fate that many legal graduates have to really worry about. This is especially true on a site like TLS where the majority of users will be going to T1 schools.

Cyclical growth of markets has occurred for years, a phenomenon which includes the legal market. Why should we believe that this time around will be considerably different? The spread of legal outsourcing further than first-level doc rev is also unlikely considering the nature of litigation... Does it really seem viable to have someone in India prepping your witnesses?

Bottom Line: Outsourcing is NOT the problem which will topple the legal market. Please stop living in fear of your livelihood

EDIT: Oh yeah and can you (or could you, before this impending doom you speak of) find me one of them doc review jobs where I get paid 6 figures? Sounds pretty tasty.

you don't know what you are talking about, bud. I certainly did document review at biglaw this summer and so did real associates. You are confusing "contract" attorney with document review. Biglaw lawyers do document review / dillegence -- no doubt about it.

But Biglaw attorneys do not ONLY do document review. Just because doc review is a part of your job does not mean that it is the part of your job that makes you earn your salary. You're not getting paid as an associate to do first level document classification involved in first-level Doc Review. You're getting paid to (supposedly) be an expert on the law and be able to provide some level of knowledge and expertise required in understanding how documents or data fall into the law and help your case.

[06072010]

Unless you're graduating from the bottom of your class or are attending a TTT, mindless first-level document review is not a fate that many legal graduates have to really worry about. This is especially true on a site like TLS where the majority of users will be going to T1 schools.
Just because doc review is a part of your job does not mean that it is the part of your job that makes you earn your salary. You're not getting paid as an associate to do first level document classification involved in first-level Doc Review. You're getting paid to (supposedly) be an expert on the law and be able to provide some level of knowledge and expertise required in understanding how documents or data fall into the law and help your case.

It seems you have rose-colored glasses on. You're getting paid as an associate to bill hours. Document review is a fantastic way for firms to have associates churn work. And that's why younger associates are going to do it -- and a LOT OF IT -- until clients get wise and demand it to outsourced. Whether this happens en masse remains to be seen. I have a feeling that it wont. Tech support is one thing -- missing a relevant document in a bet-the-business lit is another.

[98234872348]

But Biglaw attorneys do not ONLY do document review. Just because doc review is a part of your job does not mean that it is the part of your job that makes you earn your salary. You're not getting paid as an associate to do first level document classification involved in first-level Doc Review. You're getting paid to (supposedly) be an expert on the law and be able to provide some level of knowledge and expertise required in understanding how documents or data fall into the law and help your case.

Impressive how much more you know about big law compared to someone who has experience working in a big law environment...