Substantive litigation positions for juniors Forum

[Anonymous User]

I am wrapping up my first year of big law and heading off to a clerkship, so it's a good time to reflect on the beginning of my time in legal practice. There have been upsides - I really like the people I work with, I've found the internal culture of my firm to be nice and respectful, and the work/life balance has been much more manageable than the Internet had led me to believe (maybe this is just a slow year?). I also like that you have a relatively high degree of autonomy about when you're in the office and when you complete your work, and obviously, it's great getting paid this much. I think I could probably ride it out here for a long time and have a good life where I'm financially secure, able to enjoy my life outside work, and have good relationships with my colleagues.

Despite all that, I'm realizing that I have become demoralized, simply because of the incredibly low expectations and level of responsibility that a big law junior receives. If it's a myth about this job that your work/life balance will be utterly destroyed, I think it's also a myth that a firm like this is a great place to get training. I miss law school, where I felt super invested in my classes and my grades. I believe I and my junior lit colleagues are capable of doing much more substantive work than we are doing. Even more demoralizing is seeing the kind of work being done by sixth and seventh years, which is all too often not even that much more substantive. In many ways I feel like a glorified scribe or secretary.

What positions would people recommend where I could get actual training and actually have some degree of responsibility and ownership over the case? Federal public defenders? Is the grass really greener at the lit boutiques or smaller firms? Civil enforcement in positions like state AG offices?

A few pieces of additional information: getting security clearance isn't an option (background checks for a clerkship etc are fine, no bar or license issues, just not SF-86). I have law school student loans and I'm not on income-driven repayment yet thanks to the new administration - I have no idea what the resolution of that situation will be or what IDR will look like if and when my application is accepted, but I expect to pay them all back, which may well require at least another year or two of big law once I'm done clerking. And I would like to live in NYC, so I would like at least something paying enough for me to be able to live in the city if at all possible. Stories of people making it work in this city in the kinds of positions I'm asking about would be inspirational.

[Anonymous User]

The boutiques can be a mixed bag. Some (e.g., Selendy Gay) are litigation-only BigLaw shops and want to bill as much as possible, so they will tie junior associates up in doc review and tedious work. Others are leaner, and often, if they are not of the elite variety, will pay less but will allow juniors to do more substantive work.

In terms of government, I would look at the NYS Attorney General or Manhattan DA. They're both somewhat selective and will give you good courtroom and writing experience.

[Anonymous User]

Federal Defenders. You are given a ton of responsibility, you have a huge stake in the cases, and it's incredibly good work. You'll lose a lot. I'd also suggest county PD work, but it can be a ton of work at times. Plaintiff side 1983 cases can also be very rewarding if you can find the right outfit, but you likely won't be first chairing things as quickly.
Some PI gigs will be similar, local ACLU, NAACP etc. can also all be good fits but you'll get varying degrees of first chairing or lead attorney.

None of these pay biglaw pay.

[top_of_the_bellcurve]

I chose not to return to my big law summer firm, instead going to a "boutique" firm on the plaintiff-side that handles big class actions in a particular practice field. I, too, saw the type of work being completed by the mid- and senior-level associates at the firm. While the more senior folks were starting to get good opportunities, I just didn't see myself sticking around for 5+ years to get to that point. The third and fifth year I worked most closely with had never gotten their names on a brief.

I've already first-chaired two deps and have stopped counting the number of deps I've second-chaired. I and other first years have led meet and confers, drafted full sections of dispositive motions, led teams of staff attorneys, and handled other tasks typically assigned to mid- and senior-level associates on the other side.

I make 80%+ of BL scale (though the gap will widen over time), have excellent benefits, and feel that my time is valued by the firm/partners. My firm has a clerkship bonus (I think $25k), as do at least some of the "higher-end" p-side firms (your Susman's, of course, but also some "less prestigious" firms that are just very good at what they do).

[Anonymous User]

I chose not to return to my big law summer firm, instead going to a "boutique" firm on the plaintiff-side that handles big class actions in a particular practice field. I, too, saw the type of work being completed by the mid- and senior-level associates at the firm. While the more senior folks were starting to get good opportunities, I just didn't see myself sticking around for 5+ years to get to that point. The third and fifth year I worked most closely with had never gotten their names on a brief.

I've already first-chaired two deps and have stopped counting the number of deps I've second-chaired. I and other first years have led meet and confers, drafted full sections of dispositive motions, led teams of staff attorneys, and handled other tasks typically assigned to mid- and senior-level associates on the other side.

I make 80%+ of BL scale (though the gap will widen over time), have excellent benefits, and feel that my time is valued by the firm/partners. My firm has a clerkship bonus (I think $25k), as do at least some of the "higher-end" p-side firms (your Susman's, of course, but also some "less prestigious" firms that are just very good at what they do).

Thanks both for your responses. Can you recommend a resource or thread that lists firms like this?

[Anonymous User]

Coming from a junior on the plaintiff side, I'd also highly recommend the plaintiff side for your goals.

Charlie Munger once said: "Show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome." The billable hour model and its incentive structure explains practically EVERY aspect of BigLaw. BigLaw is incentivized for juniors to bill hours. That's it. That means they have no incentive to give you substantive work; they have little incentive to train you unless you're further on the partner track; they have every incentive to bury you in bullshit work. That's literally how they make their money.

Contrast that with the plaintiff side's incentive structure. You only get paid when you win. And you make money when you recover great settlements for the plaintiffs — ideally as fast as you can. That means plaintiff shops are incentivized to give juniors a lot of responsibility; to train them fast and well so they can actually go win cases for the firm; to give juniors a ton of autonomy to handle their cases and lawyer creatively. My experience at my firm has been consistent with the poster above: junior associates doing tasks normally done by senior BigLaw partners (taking and defending depositions, drafting dispositive motions, etc.).

Also, if you want investment in your work, the plaintiff's side is where it's at. There's no investment like knowing that your lawyering could literally recover millions of dollars for your clients and for the firm (and, in part, for you). You get to be much more creative and entrepreneurial, rather than reactive and plodding.

And plaintiff's firms are starting to catch up with BigLaw compensation. Some surpass BigLaw when bonuses are taken into account.

[top_of_the_bellcurve]

This list is quite long, though I'm not sure when it was last updated: https://hls.harvard.edu/bernard-koteen- ... irm-guide/

The following article isn't very long, but it's nice that p-side firms are getting some publicity now: https://leftsideofthev.substack.com/p/p ... dium=email

You'll have to do some amount of leg-work to find out which firms are of interest to you:
- lots of schools now have "plaintiff law associations" - you can see if your school has one, and they'll be well-poised to give you info+connections
- you can use the above list and sort by practice group/location, then go to firm webpages to see what kinds of matters they handle
- if you have a practice group interest, you can look up the big cases in that practice area and see who the p-side attorneys were
- I/others can chime in. Happy to share what I know

Echoing the other poster: I think the economic structure (we get paid when we win) removes lots of the BS juniors normally handle at BL firms + it's just a load of fun to build cases rather than try to delay them or tear them down.

[ninthcircuitattorney]

I would second the FDP recommendation.

When I was there, in my first 2 months, I second chaired a 3 week federal trial and entirely handled a U.S. court of appeals oral argument.

I would average 1 first chair trial and 1 appellate oral argument per year. It's kinda impossible not to learn how to litigate a case there.