Employment Advice Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi all,

I'm kinda just ranting in the wind, but wanted to know y'all's thoughts. Skipping a few things - I recently did a clerkship for the last year (think OKC), prior to that I was a line AUSA in my flyover home state in my home city (think Tulsa) for 2 years. I'm going back to Tulsa, but I kind of have a few options and would appreciate any insight.

1) I can return to being an AUSA. I was asked by my old boss to come back and work in the appeals division. I initially told him no, but would like to come back as a line attorney and make 150k. He seemed a bit miffed with my request, said he likely couldn't meet the salary demand because there were people who had been there longer who didn't make quite that much or were right around there. My sense is that I'd be offered around 120-130k (which is in line with my AD scale xp, sadly). I really enjoyed doing this work (the line work) but didn't want my career to be appellate. I also wouldn't want to have my career there regardless and would eventually leave (likely around 3-5 more years there). Two of my mentors are here and I did well at the job.

2) I received an offer to work remotely for this 1983 plaintiff's firm out of OKC and they would allow me to do CJA work on the side. Salary is eat what you kill, but they suspect around 50-150k a year and putting in around about 800-1000 billable hours a year. And I'd be able to do another few hundred hours for underlying CJA work - so, I'd likely make anywhere from 125-215k a year on this combo and it would be mostly remote. It's really more of a solo gig plus I run 1983 cases through them.

3) I received an offer to work for a well respected boutique firm back in Tulsa. I initially asked if I could join as Of Counsel - they are still exploring this - but they offered me a senior associate position. They get a good amount of white collar, 1983 plaintiff, and have CJA work and federal crim. They offered me 140k, 1500 billable hours.

4) Of Counsel at my original big firm in Tulsa. When I first started practicing in Tulsa, I worked at a pretty big corporate firm there (our version of biglaw). I quit after a year and a half when the AUSA role opened up. They've offered me a position as Of Counsel, basically junior partner, where I'd pay about 40-50k for overhead, paralegal etc. and be able to work on CJA stuff, however, the firm does not have a civil rights practice or criminal practice. I'd be used as auxiliary for appellate stuff and whatever else partners wanted to staff me on. Bit afraid that it would end up with me leaving behind civil rights, but more importantly, criminal.

5) Just a true solo. I could just do pure CJA stuff and whatever else comes through the door. I'm not good enough to do 1983 cases on my own, nor anything else, but could sustain a steady underlying base with CJA alone. After talking with some former AUSA/AFPD friends who went private practice, it seems a light full time load of CJA equates to 125k-200k a year, depending on indictments.

A bit of background on me: fantasy is to be a judge. I know that ain't happening. I think next is another fantasy, US Attorney of my district. Barring that, I would like to just be doing federal Criminal defense, white collar, plaintiff civil rights, and potentially plaintiff's employment or plaintiff's medmal work, making a good amount of money, doing what I enjoy, having a lot of flexibility, and pretending to fight the good fight, ha. Part of what makes options 1 and 3 less shinny is that I have a newborn and 1 toddler and I want to spend time with them. My partner also works from home and I'm jealous, ha. And not that 1 and 3 are grueling programs, but I like being able to be home with my kids, being there for future baseball games, etc.

Appreciate any insights thinking through some stuff!

[Lacepiece23]

Long read but as a plaintiffs employment attorney, I’d just go solo. You could get employment cases pretty easy, and it goes well with criminal work. A lot of employment lawyers/crim folks out there. In fact they usually make the best employment attorneys.

You could make a good living. Doing CJA work and some really good contingency side plaintiffs cases could be an effective combo to make 400k+ if you’re smart about it.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for the response. I'm leaning towards that or option 2 atm (since I think they'd potentially let me do some employment work on my own). Only other thing is option 3 just due to the potential of expanding as a partner there and getting biz in from them. I've kinda ruled out options 1 (AUSA returning) and 4 (old big firm) unless they just offer too sweet of a deal.

I appreciate you taking the time to look at this stuff and tell me your xp. That's great to know about the salary. Honestly, if I knew I could fairly realistically breach the 200k+ lane, I'd stick with solo or the remote civil rights gig. Appreciate you.

[Anonymous User]

I started in litigation as a CJA attorney in my home district plus multiple circuits and averaged about $150k per year. Then I had children (and private school tuition invoices), went on to solo plaintiff's work, and doubled that. I've always worked from home and I've always dropped off and picked up my children from school.

Litigation is learned by doing, but you may benefit from a one year stint in a civil litigation practice (as long as you're actually litigating). CJA work is noble, but clients, judges, and the Bar doesn't see it that way. So i would expect that a whole lot of CJA experience would be a liability for those top positions - Article III, The U.S. Attorney. Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

Litigation is learned by doing, but you may benefit from a one year stint in a civil litigation practice (as long as you're actually litigating). CJA work is noble, but clients, judges, and the Bar doesn't see it that way. So i would expect that a whole lot of CJA experience would be a liability for those top positions - Article III, The U.S. Attorney. Good luck.

This is probably what you mean, but I don’t think CJA work is any more a liability than criminal defense generally - but I agree that criminal defense generally is going to be a liability for a USA position. (Also Article III under a lot of admins, but not necessarily (see Biden)).

Obviously it’s all political so that’s going to matter most, and depending on the jdx and who the person knows and so on I’m sure it’s possible. But OP, I don’t think the work you’re interested in positions you particularly well for a USA slot down the line. (And I realize that’s not really what you’re asking about here so I don’t mean to harp on a small part of your post.)

It sounds like you’re someone who values flexibility/independence more than guaranteed salary, and I’m probably the opposite, so my perspective may be less helpful to you, but in case it’s at all helpful:

My concern about #2 is that $50-150k is a pretty big salary range, but it sounds like good mix of practice area and flexibility and would be kind of a practice run at being a solo.

#4 doesn’t sound like a good fit for what you want in either lifestyle or practice area.

It sounds like you’ve mostly ruled out the AUSA gig. IME it would be unusual for them to pay materially over your AD-scale, plus working for the federal government right now is kind of a shitshow (I don’t think local USAOs are likely to be slash/burned, but you still have to put up with some bullshit).

But my real takeaway is that you have a lot of options here, and it seems unlikely from all you’ve said that any of these gigs are going to hurt your career going forward, so it sounds like you’ll continue to have options. So I don’t think there’s a bad choice that’s going to hurt you, if that makes any sense? Good luck choosing!

[ninthcircuitattorney]

4) Of Counsel at my original big firm in Tulsa. When I first started practicing in Tulsa, I worked at a pretty big corporate firm there (our version of biglaw). I quit after a year and a half when the AUSA role opened up. They've offered me a position as Of Counsel, basically junior partner, where I'd pay about 40-50k for overhead, paralegal etc. and be able to work on CJA stuff, however, the firm does not have a civil rights practice or criminal practice. I'd be used as auxiliary for appellate stuff and whatever else partners wanted to staff me on. Bit afraid that it would end up with me leaving behind civil rights, but more importantly, criminal.

Question: do lawyers pay to be Of Counsel ?

[nealric]

4) Of Counsel at my original big firm in Tulsa. When I first started practicing in Tulsa, I worked at a pretty big corporate firm there (our version of biglaw). I quit after a year and a half when the AUSA role opened up. They've offered me a position as Of Counsel, basically junior partner, where I'd pay about 40-50k for overhead, paralegal etc. and be able to work on CJA stuff, however, the firm does not have a civil rights practice or criminal practice. I'd be used as auxiliary for appellate stuff and whatever else partners wanted to staff me on. Bit afraid that it would end up with me leaving behind civil rights, but more importantly, criminal.

Question: do lawyers pay to be Of Counsel ?

"Of Counsel" tends to be used for any lawyer who doesn't fit neatly between the Associate/Partner divide. Compensation arrangements can be all over the place, from salaried to a pure "eat what you kill" arrangement where you pay overhead and keep most everything else. My spouse currently has an arrangement like this. It works really well provided 1) you can generate your own business, and 2) your practice dovetails with other things the firm is doing, and 3) you won't be conflicted or prohibited from doing work you want to develop.

The "pay overhead" arrangement can work well because it gives you access to 1) a brand (you aren't just a random person who hung a shingle), 2) turnkey-administrative help, and 3) a source of work when you are still ramping up. It can take ~6 months for the money to start flowing on your own practice. If you pay overhead quarterly, be prepared to have negative income in the first quarter unless the firm is ready to feed you work on day 1.

[Anonymous User]

This is OP. Thank you all very much for the thoughtful response, I really do appreciate them!

For the Of Counsel roles: At the remote firm 1983 firm, no. I basically get assigned cases and charge XXX on them, if we win, I take home 50% of XXX, unless it's a case I brought in, in which case I get 60%. They don't charge me anything or take anything. It's basically contract work but I get an office if I'm in town, can be done remotely, and get some support.

For option 4, I do have to pay to be Of Counsel. They are expecting an overhead amount of payment. At this firm it's basically like a partner unless you were a partner and now you're taking senior status type thing.

I think in the grand scheme, I pay. It's just do I pay on the front end or back end kind of situation.