PA Holiday Bonus Forum

[Anonymous User]

**Trigger warning for folks who'll say "this topic has already been discussed": If you don't want to read it/comment on it, just skip it.**

I'm now a fairly senior associate in Big Law. I hardly ever use my PA for any work. Is there some unspoken ceiling or understanding that holiday bonuses of $100/class year levels off at some point? Otherwise it would be many hundreds of dollars (approaching $1000), which is more than I'd spend on even some friends/family holiday gifts, for nominal assistance coming out of my pocket rather than from the partners of the firm. At some point, it seems a bit much, right? Or am I wrong / thinking about it incorrectly?

[Anonymous User]

It's an absurd relic of a days-gone-by Biglaw culture to think it appropriate, or even customary, to "tip" a secretary, who in most cases I've seen across three major law firms: is assigned to "support" 5+ attorneys generally, provides minimally helpful assistance to anyone but the most senior partner to whom she is assigned, takes days to complete tasks that must be done immediately in order to be impactfully helpful, uses 35+ days of PTO and without advance notice, is completely unreachable after 4:57PM, takes an hour plus for lunch, and is already receiving a six-figure base salary.

This practice needs to end because the relationship dynamic between a Biglaw atty and his or her secretary has changed so dramatically to the detriment of the lawyer.

If, however, there was a case (I've seen exactly one in 8 years of private practice) in which a secretary was truly invaluable to my output and saved me time in completing my work, I would exceed the conventional amounts per class year and not think twice.

I've just never even come close to seeing a legal secretary (other than one) do anything but abuse a very cushy position that frankly should be eliminated in today's day and age and pace of legal execution.

[baskeet]

It's an absurd relic of a days-gone-by Biglaw culture to think it appropriate, or even customary, to "tip" a secretary, who in most cases I've seen across three major law firms: is assigned to "support" 5+ attorneys generally, provides minimally helpful assistance to anyone but the most senior partner to whom she is assigned, takes days to complete tasks that must be done immediately in order to be impactfully helpful, uses 35+ days of PTO and without advance notice, is completely unreachable after 4:57PM, takes an hour plus for lunch, and is already receiving a six-figure base salary.

This practice needs to end because the relationship dynamic between a Biglaw atty and his or her secretary has changed so dramatically to the detriment of the lawyer.

If, however, there was a case (I've seen exactly one in 8 years of private practice) in which a secretary was truly invaluable to my output and saved me time in completing my work, I would exceed the conventional amounts per class year and not think twice.

I've just never even come close to seeing a legal secretary (other than one) do anything but abuse a very cushy position that frankly should be eliminated in today's day and age and pace of legal execution.

ok Ebenezer go off!

[Bramwell]

It's an absurd relic of a days-gone-by Biglaw culture to think it appropriate, or even customary, to "tip" a secretary, who in most cases I've seen across three major law firms: is assigned to "support" 5+ attorneys generally, provides minimally helpful assistance to anyone but the most senior partner to whom she is assigned, takes days to complete tasks that must be done immediately in order to be impactfully helpful, uses 35+ days of PTO and without advance notice, is completely unreachable after 4:57PM, takes an hour plus for lunch, and is already receiving a six-figure base salary.

This practice needs to end because the relationship dynamic between a Biglaw atty and his or her secretary has changed so dramatically to the detriment of the lawyer.

If, however, there was a case (I've seen exactly one in 8 years of private practice) in which a secretary was truly invaluable to my output and saved me time in completing my work, I would exceed the conventional amounts per class year and not think twice.

I've just never even come close to seeing a legal secretary (other than one) do anything but abuse a very cushy position that frankly should be eliminated in today's day and age and pace of legal execution.

PAs make six figures? There’s one PA I know who handles all of one rainmaker’s personal affairs. Yelling at the limo service to be waiting for the partner on the Departures level (because he has no bags); calling repair people out to his mansion etc. I suspect he must tip her well. I, on the other hand, don’t even have a signed PA, and I certainly don’t plan to tip all of the 10 folks working in the pool (in a different city to boot) for the 4 expense reports I’ve filed this year.

[Anonymous User]

It's an absurd relic of a days-gone-by Biglaw culture to think it appropriate, or even customary, to "tip" a secretary, who in most cases I've seen across three major law firms: is assigned to "support" 5+ attorneys generally, provides minimally helpful assistance to anyone but the most senior partner to whom she is assigned, takes days to complete tasks that must be done immediately in order to be impactfully helpful, uses 35+ days of PTO and without advance notice, is completely unreachable after 4:57PM, takes an hour plus for lunch, and is already receiving a six-figure base salary.

This practice needs to end because the relationship dynamic between a Biglaw atty and his or her secretary has changed so dramatically to the detriment of the lawyer.

If, however, there was a case (I've seen exactly one in 8 years of private practice) in which a secretary was truly invaluable to my output and saved me time in completing my work, I would exceed the conventional amounts per class year and not think twice.

I've just never even come close to seeing a legal secretary (other than one) do anything but abuse a very cushy position that frankly should be eliminated in today's day and age and pace of legal execution.

Wow our profession is toxic

[Anonymous User]

It's an absurd relic of a days-gone-by Biglaw culture to think it appropriate, or even customary, to "tip" a secretary, who in most cases I've seen across three major law firms: is assigned to "support" 5+ attorneys generally, provides minimally helpful assistance to anyone but the most senior partner to whom she is assigned, takes days to complete tasks that must be done immediately in order to be impactfully helpful, uses 35+ days of PTO and without advance notice, is completely unreachable after 4:57PM, takes an hour plus for lunch, and is already receiving a six-figure base salary.

This practice needs to end because the relationship dynamic between a Biglaw atty and his or her secretary has changed so dramatically to the detriment of the lawyer.

If, however, there was a case (I've seen exactly one in 8 years of private practice) in which a secretary was truly invaluable to my output and saved me time in completing my work, I would exceed the conventional amounts per class year and not think twice.

I've just never even come close to seeing a legal secretary (other than one) do anything but abuse a very cushy position that frankly should be eliminated in today's day and age and pace of legal execution.

PAs make six figures? There’s one PA I know who handles all of one rainmaker’s personal affairs. Yelling at the limo service to be waiting for the partner on the Departures level (because he has no bags); calling repair people out to his mansion etc. I suspect he must tip her well. I, on the other hand, don’t even have a signed PA, and I certainly don’t plan to tip all of the 10 folks working in the pool (in a different city to boot) for the 4 expense reports I’ve filed this year.

Exactly. The bargain has changed between 2023 lawyer and secretary. The pool system provides cover for these people to feign the impression that they are constantly too overwhelmed by the assignments for many to perform even one for the few. To expect hundreds of dollars from each attorney in your pool (which is typically 5 or more) is wildly inappropriate to begin with, and more so when compared with the level of support provided to each such attorney.

My bet is that this generation of career secretaries/practice assistants will not be replaced upon their retirement. It would be interesting to see market practice shift toward adoption a "legal analyst" type of rotation system and target high-performers straight out of undergrad with an interest in the field. Some firms do this, but it is not the norm. It would be a smart way to get better productivity out of the staff while at the same time conferring meaningful support to lawyers beyond expense reimbursement and reminders on time entry deadlines.

[Anonymous User]

It's an absurd relic of a days-gone-by Biglaw culture to think it appropriate, or even customary, to "tip" a secretary, who in most cases I've seen across three major law firms: is assigned to "support" 5+ attorneys generally, provides minimally helpful assistance to anyone but the most senior partner to whom she is assigned, takes days to complete tasks that must be done immediately in order to be impactfully helpful, uses 35+ days of PTO and without advance notice, is completely unreachable after 4:57PM, takes an hour plus for lunch, and is already receiving a six-figure base salary.

This practice needs to end because the relationship dynamic between a Biglaw atty and his or her secretary has changed so dramatically to the detriment of the lawyer.

If, however, there was a case (I've seen exactly one in 8 years of private practice) in which a secretary was truly invaluable to my output and saved me time in completing my work, I would exceed the conventional amounts per class year and not think twice.

I've just never even come close to seeing a legal secretary (other than one) do anything but abuse a very cushy position that frankly should be eliminated in today's day and age and pace of legal execution.

PAs make six figures? There’s one PA I know who handles all of one rainmaker’s personal affairs. Yelling at the limo service to be waiting for the partner on the Departures level (because he has no bags); calling repair people out to his mansion etc. I suspect he must tip her well. I, on the other hand, don’t even have a signed PA, and I certainly don’t plan to tip all of the 10 folks working in the pool (in a different city to boot) for the 4 expense reports I’ve filed this year.

Exactly. The bargain has changed between 2023 lawyer and secretary. The pool system provides cover for these people to feign the impression that they are constantly too overwhelmed by the assignments for many to perform even one for the few. To expect hundreds of dollars from each attorney in your pool (which is typically 5 or more) is wildly inappropriate to begin with, and more so when compared with the level of support provided to each such attorney.

My bet is that this generation of career secretaries/practice assistants will not be replaced upon their retirement. It would be interesting to see market practice shift toward adoption a "legal analyst" type of rotation system and target high-performers straight out of undergrad with an interest in the field. Some firms do this, but it is not the norm. It would be a smart way to get better productivity out of the staff while at the same time conferring meaningful support to lawyers beyond expense reimbursement and reminders on time entry deadlines.

According to Citi, 94% of firms reduced secretaries between 2017 and 2022, and 74% expect to over the next two years. "Office facilities" staff is the only other category with numbers close to that (50% and 30%, respectively). Biggest growth areas are data scientists, diversity professionals, and pricing specialists.

https://www.privatebank.citibank.com/do ... inline.pdf

[LittleRedCorvette]

It's an absurd relic of a days-gone-by Biglaw culture to think it appropriate, or even customary, to "tip" a secretary, who in most cases I've seen across three major law firms: is assigned to "support" 5+ attorneys generally, provides minimally helpful assistance to anyone but the most senior partner to whom she is assigned, takes days to complete tasks that must be done immediately in order to be impactfully helpful, uses 35+ days of PTO and without advance notice, is completely unreachable after 4:57PM, takes an hour plus for lunch, and is already receiving a six-figure base salary.

This practice needs to end because the relationship dynamic between a Biglaw atty and his or her secretary has changed so dramatically to the detriment of the lawyer.

If, however, there was a case (I've seen exactly one in 8 years of private practice) in which a secretary was truly invaluable to my output and saved me time in completing my work, I would exceed the conventional amounts per class year and not think twice.

I've just never even come close to seeing a legal secretary (other than one) do anything but abuse a very cushy position that frankly should be eliminated in today's day and age and pace of legal execution.

Spicy but accurate.

[Anonymous User]

This kind of discussion always baffles me b/c I work for the feds, and always hear how underresourced we are compared to biglaw, and yet have had helpful and productive legal assistants my entire career. Is it a lit v. corp thing? If nothing else, I'm indebted to my assistant for managing my calendar.

[Anonymous User]

This kind of discussion always baffles me b/c I work for the feds, and always hear how underresourced we are compared to biglaw, and yet have had helpful and productive legal assistants my entire career. Is it a lit v. corp thing? If nothing else, I'm indebted to my assistant for managing my calendar.

It doesn't surprise me to learn that a government lawyer finds the type of "work" done for them by a legal secretary of the low productivity level we're describing as extremely valuable.

[AaronCarter]

It's an absurd relic of a days-gone-by Biglaw culture to think it appropriate, or even customary, to "tip" a secretary, who in most cases I've seen across three major law firms: is assigned to "support" 5+ attorneys generally, provides minimally helpful assistance to anyone but the most senior partner to whom she is assigned, takes days to complete tasks that must be done immediately in order to be impactfully helpful, uses 35+ days of PTO and without advance notice, is completely unreachable after 4:57PM, takes an hour plus for lunch, and is already receiving a six-figure base salary.

This practice needs to end because the relationship dynamic between a Biglaw atty and his or her secretary has changed so dramatically to the detriment of the lawyer.

If, however, there was a case (I've seen exactly one in 8 years of private practice) in which a secretary was truly invaluable to my output and saved me time in completing my work, I would exceed the conventional amounts per class year and not think twice.

I've just never even come close to seeing a legal secretary (other than one) do anything but abuse a very cushy position that frankly should be eliminated in today's day and age and pace of legal execution.

ok Ebenezer go off!

[Anonymous User]

This kind of discussion always baffles me b/c I work for the feds, and always hear how underresourced we are compared to biglaw, and yet have had helpful and productive legal assistants my entire career. Is it a lit v. corp thing? If nothing else, I'm indebted to my assistant for managing my calendar.

It doesn't surprise me to learn that a government lawyer finds the type of "work" done for them by a legal secretary of the low productivity level we're describing as extremely valuable.

Sick burn. I will console myself with my free evenings and weekends, lack of billable hours, excellent benefits, copious leave, autonomy over my cases, and actual substantive experience, as well as the helpful and supportive staff you apparently don’t get in biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

It's not primarily meant to be a burn, but central to this discussion is the reality that government attorneys have, for many reasons, a fundamentally different perspective on the proper productivity levels of non-lawyer staff needed to justify out-of-pocket cash compensation to them from the attorneys they "work" for.

[Anonymous User]

It's not primarily meant to be a burn, but central to this discussion is the reality that government attorneys have, for many reasons, a fundamentally different perspective on the proper productivity levels of non-lawyer staff needed to justify out-of-pocket cash compensation to them from the attorneys they "work" for.

[Anonymous User]

It's not primarily meant to be a burn, but central to this discussion is the reality that government attorneys have, for many reasons, a fundamentally different perspective on the proper productivity levels of non-lawyer staff needed to justify out-of-pocket cash compensation to them from the attorneys they "work" for.

I'm sure you're right, and my original post wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. When I said I was "baffled," it wasn't meant as a criticism about how people in biglaw do/don't use their legal assistants; it was meant as an honest question about what your legal assistants actually do/why they can't help you. I regularly see complaints about the uselessness of biglaw assistants and how they don't do anything, which seem to be rooted not just in the idea that your specific assistants are bad at their jobs (we've all experienced that), but in the idea that they're not even relevant to your jobs. I am curious about why that's the case, b/c I haven't worked in big law, but do find my assistants helpful, so wondered why it's so different. What are the "many reasons" for the "fundamentally different perspective" you identify?

[Anonymous User]

It's not primarily meant to be a burn, but central to this discussion is the reality that government attorneys have, for many reasons, a fundamentally different perspective on the proper productivity levels of non-lawyer staff needed to justify out-of-pocket cash compensation to them from the attorneys they "work" for.

I'm sure you're right, and my original post wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. When I said I was "baffled," it wasn't meant as a criticism about how people in biglaw do/don't use their legal assistants; it was meant as an honest question about what your legal assistants actually do/why they can't help you. I regularly see complaints about the uselessness of biglaw assistants and how they don't do anything, which seem to be rooted not just in the idea that your specific assistants are bad at their jobs (we've all experienced that), but in the idea that they're not even relevant to your jobs. I am curious about why that's the case, b/c I haven't worked in big law, but do find my assistants helpful, so wondered why it's so different. What are the "many reasons" for the "fundamentally different perspective" you identify?

I think you've done a nice job at enumerating several of them already. Your lack of nights and weekends result from substantially less responsibility than you would have in a law firm environment, and without billable hours you can limit your workload to a lower quantity of matters requiring your attention. With less substantive legal work to manage, produce, and deliver, it makes sense that a government worker would feel like a secretary who merely accepts their calendar invites or prints their emails, for example, confers a massive benefit. Because you and your secretary do not have to perform work outside of "regular business hours", it is also very unlikely that you are ever at your office, needing help, when your secretary is not. On other hand, most of the times at which law firm lawyers, especially junior ones, need the most remedial help--I'm talking mundane things like inputting hand-marked comments, performing proofreading tasks, bluebooking support, preparing signature packets, or retrieving SOS/SEC filings--are times where secretaries have left the office hours ago. For law firm lawyers, you have to cover your internal and external clients during the business day before a large portion of your most substantive "deep work" can begin. A law firm lawyer's secretary who leaves before 5:00PM is not even present to be able to meaningfully help, even if they knew how.

[Anonymous User]

I think you've done a nice job at enumerating several of them already. Your lack of nights and weekends result from substantially less responsibility than you would have in a law firm environment, and without billable hours you can limit your workload to a lower quantity of matters requiring your attention. With less substantive legal work to manage, produce, and deliver, it makes sense that a government worker would feel like a secretary who merely accepts their calendar invites or prints their emails, for example, confers a massive benefit. Because you and your secretary do not have to perform work outside of "regular business hours", it is also very unlikely that you are ever at your office, needing help, when your secretary is not. On other hand, most of the times at which law firm lawyers, especially junior ones, need the most remedial help--I'm talking mundane things like inputting hand-marked comments, performing proofreading tasks, bluebooking support, preparing signature packets, or retrieving SOS/SEC filings--are times where secretaries have left the office hours ago. For law firm lawyers, you have to cover your internal and external clients during the business day before a large portion of your most substantive "deep work" can begin. A law firm lawyer's secretary who leaves before 5:00PM is not even present to be able to meaningfully help, even if they knew how.

Thanks for the answer. The scheduling point makes a lot of sense (I actually do file things after 5:00 fairly often, although that's balanced out by things like support at trial). '

I want to nitpick a little how you're framing this - I'm not sure responsibility is determined only by volume of work, nor am I sure how many matters you work on at a time in biglaw - but the only material clarification is that managing my calendar isn't "merely accepting invites" (I mean I can click a button on an email just fine). It's actively entering all case deadlines, creating reminders, monitoring the deadlines, and checking in with me on where things stand. My assistant does other helpful stuff as well, but I'm bad at time management so the calendar stuff is invaluable.

Also I have no idea when anyone in my office last printed an e-mail lol.

Anyway, I'll butt out, thanks for indulging me.

[Dr Tobias Funke]

I love the idea that a government lawyer has "substantially less responsibility" and "less substantive legal work" because they work less. They probably have more of those two things than the average biglaw associate.

[Anonymous User]

I love the idea that a government lawyer has "substantially less responsibility" and "less substantive legal work" because they work less. They probably have more of those two things than the average biglaw associate.

How else would he find his legal secretary to be value-additive?