Patterson Belknap Forum

[Anonymous User]

Any insight into Patterson Belknap? Are the hours/culture actually any different than typical Biglaw, or is that just good marketing? And how easy is it to exit into an AUSA role? It seems like their white collar practice is growing

[Anonymous User]

Any insight into Patterson Belknap? Are the hours/culture actually any different than typical Biglaw, or is that just good marketing? And how easy is it to exit into an AUSA role? It seems like their white collar practice is growing

Anon for obvious reasons.

Patterson Belknap used to have (and to some extent still does, as your question suggests) a reputation as a more genteel lifestyle firm; associates used to expressly call it a lifestyle firm, though nowadays they are instructed by the firm not to do so. I would describe it as nicer culture-wise than the typical biglaw firm and with comparable (or perhaps slightly fewer) hours. And a lot of the older partners are lovely and give you a taste of what the place was like back in the day.

One thing to note is that Patterson does have a 2100 hour requirement to get a full bonus (that's 1850 billable + 250 not). Because staffing is centralized (and the firm is currently slow, though not for my team regrettably), you may end up losing out on 75% of your bonus by luck of the draw. And the firm is otherwise stingy.

My sense is that, if you have the credentials to go to PBWT (presuming you're joining post-clerkship), you will have options; I'm not sure that Patterson really sticks out the way it used to.

(I know nothing about the AUSA exit opps, but several partners are former AUSAs--and one is the former AG of NJ and consequently has lots of connections--so I think you'd be well-positioned).

[Anonymous User]

Any insight into Patterson Belknap? Are the hours/culture actually any different than typical Biglaw, or is that just good marketing? And how easy is it to exit into an AUSA role? It seems like their white collar practice is growing

Anon for obvious reasons.

Patterson Belknap used to have (and to some extent still does, as your question suggests) a reputation as a more genteel lifestyle firm; associates used to expressly call it a lifestyle firm, though nowadays they are instructed by the firm not to do so. I would describe it as nicer culture-wise than the typical biglaw firm and with comparable (or perhaps slightly fewer) hours. And a lot of the older partners are lovely and give you a taste of what the place was like back in the day.

One thing to note is that Patterson does have a 2100 hour requirement to get a full bonus (that's 1850 billable + 250 not). Because staffing is centralized (and the firm is currently slow, though not for my team regrettably), you may end up losing out on 75% of your bonus by luck of the draw. And the firm is otherwise stingy.

My sense is that, if you have the credentials to go to PBWT (presuming you're joining post-clerkship), you will have options; I'm not sure that Patterson really sticks out the way it used to.

(I know nothing about the AUSA exit opps, but several partners are former AUSAs--and one is the former AG of NJ and consequently has lots of connections--so I think you'd be well-positioned).

Former associate here, and I agree with the above. But while I think the firm is stingy in terms of bonuses and compensation (at the higher levels), they certainly don't have any qualms about reimbursements for lunch, drinks, etc. Not that I think it really factors in, but it is nice to know you can go out for lunch with other associates and not worry because the firm has a very healthy reimbursement policy.

[Anonymous User]

PBWT midlevel here.

I have mixed feelings about the place. I agree with most of what's been said by the prior posters. To the extent it ever was one, it is no longer a lifestyle firm. Much of the old guard has retired or is nearing retirement age, and the younger partners are as intense as any NYC biglaw partners. It is true that many, if not most, associates bill fewer hours in a given year than associates at other biglaw firms, but the availability expectation and bonus eligibility threshold is the same as it is in true biglaw. So it's not clear to me that this is a favorable tradeoff.

Some other issues I've had: the staffing is centralized and weirdly poorly run, with real difficulties distributing workload across associates and giving associates escalating responsibility with seniority. They've taken various steps to try to improve this, but nothing seems to work. The firm is also strangely cheap in some areas--many people miss bonus through no fault of their own, the in-office Seamless budget was unusably small in Midtown even in 2019, etc.--while being profligate in others.

I'm also not sure how real this is, and I have no inside information, but I have concerns about the firm's long-term business model. PBWT is definitely a unicorn as an ostensibly full-service biglaw firm, with biglaw cost structure and billing rates, that has only a single office in NYC. For many years, PBWT's bread and butter was post-financial crisis litigation related to residential mortgage-backed securities. That's over now, and the firm feels like it's having a bit of an identity crisis. As a prior poster mentioned, many associates are slow. The partnership has constantly disclaimed the possibility of a merger, but I think it'll have to happen at some point.

I joined post-clerkship, and if I were doing it again, I may have gone somewhere else. I'm semi-seriously shopping around for another job, and my sense is that most other associates are, too. That said, I've had a decent experience at PBWT. It's true that the people are quite nice and mostly reasonable by the standards of biglaw; the firm's brand is strong, particularly in New York but elsewhere, too; and the exit options seem solid (people definitely exit to USAOs, for instance). It can be a good choice for some people. Just know what you're getting into.

[Anonymous User]

Former associate here, and I agree with the above. But while I think the firm is stingy in terms of bonuses and compensation (at the higher levels), they certainly don't have any qualms about reimbursements for lunch, drinks, etc.

Can you expand on this? Do you just mean that the firm is generally slow so associates struggle to hit the 2100 hour threshold necessary to get the year-end bonus? Or are bonuses even for associates that meet hours below-market?

[Anonymous User]

PBWT midlevel here.

I have mixed feelings about the place. I agree with most of what's been said by the prior posters. To the extent it ever was one, it is no longer a lifestyle firm. Much of the old guard has retired or is nearing retirement age, and the younger partners are as intense as any NYC biglaw partners. It is true that many, if not most, associates bill fewer hours in a given year than associates at other biglaw firms, but the availability expectation and bonus eligibility threshold is the same as it is in true biglaw. So it's not clear to me that this is a favorable tradeoff.

Some other issues I've had: the staffing is centralized and weirdly poorly run, with real difficulties distributing workload across associates and giving associates escalating responsibility with seniority. They've taken various steps to try to improve this, but nothing seems to work. The firm is also strangely cheap in some areas--many people miss bonus through no fault of their own, the in-office Seamless budget was unusably small in Midtown even in 2019, etc.--while being profligate in others.

I'm also not sure how real this is, and I have no inside information, but I have concerns about the firm's long-term business model. PBWT is definitely a unicorn as an ostensibly full-service biglaw firm, with biglaw cost structure and billing rates, that has only a single office in NYC. For many years, PBWT's bread and butter was post-financial crisis litigation related to residential mortgage-backed securities. That's over now, and the firm feels like it's having a bit of an identity crisis. As a prior poster mentioned, many associates are slow. The partnership has constantly disclaimed the possibility of a merger, but I think it'll have to happen at some point.

I joined post-clerkship, and if I were doing it again, I may have gone somewhere else. I'm semi-seriously shopping around for another job, and my sense is that most other associates are, too. That said, I've had a decent experience at PBWT. It's true that the people are quite nice and mostly reasonable by the standards of biglaw; the firm's brand is strong, particularly in New York but elsewhere, too; and the exit options seem solid (people definitely exit to USAOs, for instance). It can be a good choice for some people. Just know what you're getting into.

These are astute points (I am initial anon above). I want to echo the point that the centralized staffing "system" is bad and the effects on bonus eligibility--not to mention just QoL--are immensely frustrating (the partnership used to only cut 50% of your bonus for missing hours, but they kindly raised it to 75% despite the workflow problems). And calling it a "system" at all is a bit of an overstatement, as there seems to be no method to the madness. I have had instances where I was totally underwater while my friends were billing 20 hours in a week despite making multiple requests for additional work and worrying about how they're going to make up those hours so they don't lose out on tens of thousands of dollars. It is baffling and the firm's leadership has not in my experience been that receptive to criticism or feedback on this or any other issue. I am not sure they care what associates think, which of course is not a problem unique to PBWT.

I don't want to suggest that it's all bad. The people are smart and generally nice and some of the work is interesting (though I do a lot of drudgery, including work that really should not be billed to clients at lawyer rates). And I would assume the firm will still get fed J&J work in perpetuity, so money will come in. I just don't think it's much different than any other biglaw firm (maybe our offices suck more?).

[Anonymous User]

I have experience at a similar firm to PWBT in a different major market, and I just have to say that this all sounds so familiar: the new wave of partners being much more intense, the difficulty with bonuses, the "we aren't lifestyle" culture despite the branding/marketing of the firm for the past many years, and the general lack of clarity where this type of firm fits in the market.

That being said, like those other posters have indicated, it is better than a traditional firm (QoL isn't 9-5, but it is better. Partnership prospects aren't guaranteed, but they are better). But, is that worth all of the downsides? I don't know. Still trying to figure that out as a mid-level myself.