Susman (NY) vs Kellogg vs Wachtell (lit) Forum

[Anonymous User]

T5 law student deciding between summer offers and have a COA clerkship post-grad (DC/2/9). From middle America and haven't spent lots of time in either NY or DC. Want to be a trial lawyer/litigator, I enjoy some appellate work (but not as much as trial), am interested in wide variety of lit (not r
just Delaware). Would be nice to make partner somewhere, but not entirely sure what I want 10 years out.

Considerations are pay, cost of living, quality of life in the city, exit opps, firm culture. My understanding is that Wachtell will pay the most, Kellogg's base, bonus, and clerkship bonus are higher than Susman's, and Susman has realistic partnership expectations.

Any advice from people who work there or have friends there? Looking for advice not just about summer associate but full-time post clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

Does Susman have a full summer program? I understood that they just did four weeks at the end?

I’d do Kellogg and Susman. WLRK doesnt do as much jury trial or appellate work. If you go there, you do Delaware work. It’s interesting and fast paced and fun - but narrow.

Of course, you can re-recruit after your clerkship. Go for the summer and then you can pick again after your clerkship because a lot can change in the next three years for you, I’d think.

[Anonymous User]

T5 law student deciding between summer offers and have a COA clerkship post-grad (DC/2/9). From middle America and haven't spent lots of time in either NY or DC. Want to be a trial lawyer/litigator, I enjoy some appellate work (but not as much as trial), am interested in wide variety of lit (not r
just Delaware). Would be nice to make partner somewhere, but not entirely sure what I want 10 years out.

Considerations are pay, cost of living, quality of life in the city, exit opps, firm culture. My understanding is that Wachtell will pay the most, Kellogg's base, bonus, and clerkship bonus are higher than Susman's, and Susman has realistic partnership expectations.

Any advice from people who work there or have friends there? Looking for advice not just about summer associate but full-time post clerkship.

For SA, Susman and Kellogg should both let you split with Wachtell. The pretty clear choice is to do that, and pick whichever of Kellogg/Susman appeals to you more. They are extremely different culturally.

Every year there’s a handful of Wachtell lit summers that do this split, and for sensible reasons. It’s good to have a high end boutique and non-boutique option.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

T5 law student deciding between summer offers and have a COA clerkship post-grad (DC/2/9). From middle America and haven't spent lots of time in either NY or DC. Want to be a trial lawyer/litigator, I enjoy some appellate work (but not as much as trial), am interested in wide variety of lit (not r
just Delaware). Would be nice to make partner somewhere, but not entirely sure what I want 10 years out.

Considerations are pay, cost of living, quality of life in the city, exit opps, firm culture. My understanding is that Wachtell will pay the most, Kellogg's base, bonus, and clerkship bonus are higher than Susman's, and Susman has realistic partnership expectations.

Any advice from people who work there or have friends there? Looking for advice not just about summer associate but full-time post clerkship.

For SA, Susman and Kellogg should both let you split with Wachtell. The pretty clear choice is to do that, and pick whichever of Kellogg/Susman appeals to you more. They are extremely different culturally.

Every year there’s a handful of Wachtell lit summers that do this split, and for sensible reasons. It’s good to have a high end boutique and non-boutique option.

I agree with this idea. Choose Wachtell for the first part of the summer, and then choose between either Susman or Kellogg for the second part of the summer.

Anecdotal, but I work with people who used to work at Wachtell, who had a really positive experience there. So, I think they are worth the summer split, even though I think long-term their focus on Delaware M&A litigation does not align with your goals. It will be great exposure for you nonetheless.

Based on your preference for trial work, I would choose Susman for the second part of the summer because they would probably allow you to obtain more trial experience faster. Susman would also allow you more geographic flexibility, as they have several offices.

[Anonymous User]

I am not sure this is true re Susman's larger bonus. Susman's bonuses never exceed $200K all the way up. Kellogg's go up to $450K.

[Anonymous User]

Wachtell/Susman. From everything I’ve heard Susman is a significantly happier place to work than Kellogg.

Also, depending on where you’re from in Middle America and your interest in returning, I wouldn’t rule out someplace like Jones Day Columbus/Minneapolis, either now or post-clerkship. Or Bartlit Beck or other good boutiques. Most Midwestern cities of substantial size (say Des Moines or Madison and up) have at least one firm that hires really good people. And it sounds like they might be a good fit for your preferences—often earlier trial work, shorter hours, high partnership (or long-term even judiciary) odds, good-to-phenomenal comp considering lower COL.

[Anonymous User]

I'm going to one of these firms (as an associate) and agree with the advice above.

From what you've said, it sounds like the Wachtell/Susman split is your best move. Susman will give you a peek into trial work and comparing that to Wachtell will allow you to determine whether trial work is for you. Law students and juniors love to say they want trial work but don't really know what that entails. Actual trial prep may dash those desires. While Kellogg is great to get a glimpse of high-profile antitrust and appellate work in DC, it doesn't sound like you're looking for that.

[Anonymous User]

Did you apply directly to KH or did they participate in your school's pre-OGI? Wondering how long until I should consider my application ghosted.

[Anonymous User]

First off, congratulations. Those are all tremendous places. I agree with all the above advice regarding taking Wachtell, then splitting with Susman/Kellogg.

As to deciding between those two, you can't go wrong with either. But here are some factors:

- Go to Kellogg if you lean more conservative or moderate. The firm is fairly balanced now ideologically, but all the founding partners are conservative. And they're still involved with the day to day operations. Everyone is super nice and cordial.
- Go to Kellogg if you want/need to be in DC eg trying clerk on DC circuit or DDC.
- Kellogg does have higher bonuses (450k for some associates last year).
- Susman is more widely known if you're not DC centric.
- Both places grind you hard, but anecdotally, you're more likely to have an outside life at Susman. Most people at Kellogg bill minimum 2800+ hours.
- Anecdotally at my school, Susman NY was known as the hardest offer to get. Then Kellogg. Then Wachtell or Williams & Connolly. Then the other Susman locations. Not sure what the gossip is at other schools.

Again, congratulations. You can't go wrong with either.

EDIT: If they'll let you, you should probably try to do 6 weeks at Susman and then 6 weeks at Kellogg if you're aiming to maximize prestige and trial experience.

[Anonymous User]

Did you apply directly to KH or did they participate in your school's pre-OGI? Wondering how long until I should consider my application ghosted.

Not OP, but applied directly in early August, heard back 2 weeks later for interview, then got the offer 3 days later.

[Anonymous User]

I'm also choosing between Susman NY and Kellogg. Has anyone else heard things about how the two firms compare and what their strengths are?

[Anonymous User]

I'm also choosing between Susman NY and Kellogg. Has anyone else heard things about how the two firms compare and what their strengths are?

How u going to post this without reading the thread, it's accurate

[Anonymous User]

I'm also choosing between Susman NY and Kellogg. Has anyone else heard things about how the two firms compare and what their strengths are?

Don't choose between them. Do both unless you have the option of splitting with a place like Munger or Williams and Connolly. Wachtell is great, but it isn't top tier in litigation like those 4 firms are.

If you happen to have MOT or WC, then it's a harder decision. Otherwise no brainer IMO if you're focused on trial/appellate.

[Anonymous User]

I'm also choosing between Susman NY and Kellogg. Has anyone else heard things about how the two firms compare and what their strengths are?

Don't choose between them. Do both unless you have the option of splitting with a place like Munger or Williams and Connolly. Wachtell is great, but it isn't top tier in litigation like those 4 firms are.

If you happen to have MOT or WC, then it's a harder decision. Otherwise no brainer IMO if you're focused on trial/appellate.

depends on what you want, blanket dismissing WLRK lit is wrong. it is very clearly the best chancery shop in the country. if that is of interest, that looks dif

[Anonymous User]

I'm also choosing between Susman NY and Kellogg. Has anyone else heard things about how the two firms compare and what their strengths are?

Don't choose between them. Do both unless you have the option of splitting with a place like Munger or Williams and Connolly. Wachtell is great, but it isn't top tier in litigation like those 4 firms are.

If you happen to have MOT or WC, then it's a harder decision. Otherwise no brainer IMO if you're focused on trial/appellate.

Neither Susman nor Kellogg guarantees offers so you should do WLRK for one. Plus Susman and Kellogg do not have full summer programs. And I’ve frankly literally never heard anything good about Kellogg besides the comp, whereas (beyond the insane hours) Susman NY has a great culture and WLRK has a good-for-biglaw one.

Also the idea that MTO or W&C are on a meaningfully higher tier than WLRK is a law student giveaway. These firms do not do the same type of lit and are not in the same cities. They are not direct competitors except at OCI, and all are at the top of their respective markets. WLRK has very good white-collar and general lit practices and an outstanding Delaware practice.

[Anonymous User]

If OP wants to be a litigator, and do a wide array of different types of litigation, Susman and Kellogg are the best picks. Not really sure what Wachtell is doing here, as its litigation practice is inferior to those of other top biglaw firms (Quinn, for example).

[Anonymous User]

I'm also choosing between Susman NY and Kellogg. Has anyone else heard things about how the two firms compare and what their strengths are?

Don't choose between them. Do both unless you have the option of splitting with a place like Munger or Williams and Connolly. Wachtell is great, but it isn't top tier in litigation like those 4 firms are.

If you happen to have MOT or WC, then it's a harder decision. Otherwise no brainer IMO if you're focused on trial/appellate.

Neither Susman nor Kellogg guarantees offers so you should do WLRK for one. Plus Susman and Kellogg do not have full summer programs. And I’ve frankly literally never heard anything good about Kellogg besides the comp, whereas (beyond the insane hours) Susman NY has a great culture and WLRK has a good-for-biglaw one.

Also the idea that MTO or W&C are on a meaningfully higher tier than WLRK is a law student giveaway. These firms do not do the same type of lit and are not in the same cities. They are not direct competitors except at OCI, and all are at the top of their respective markets. WLRK has very good white-collar and general lit practices and an outstanding Delaware practice.

If the OPs are the type of candidates to get offers from both, they almost assuredly will get a clerkship (if they don't already have one). Thus, getting a return offer isn't of the highest importance. And FWIW, I know people who did get return offers from those places after summering there.

Regarding WLRK, yes agree they're top tier for Delaware, etc. However to clarify, I stand by my original intent which is that the 4 firms I listed are on a tier of their own for appellate litigation, which is what I assume OPs are interested in. And yes I acknowledge these prestige games are stupid, but again, my assumption is that OPs value prestige.

[Anonymous User]

I'm also choosing between Susman NY and Kellogg. Has anyone else heard things about how the two firms compare and what their strengths are?

Don't choose between them. Do both unless you have the option of splitting with a place like Munger or Williams and Connolly. Wachtell is great, but it isn't top tier in litigation like those 4 firms are.

If you happen to have MOT or WC, then it's a harder decision. Otherwise no brainer IMO if you're focused on trial/appellate.

Neither Susman nor Kellogg guarantees offers so you should do WLRK for one. Plus Susman and Kellogg do not have full summer programs. And I’ve frankly literally never heard anything good about Kellogg besides the comp, whereas (beyond the insane hours) Susman NY has a great culture and WLRK has a good-for-biglaw one.

Also the idea that MTO or W&C are on a meaningfully higher tier than WLRK is a law student giveaway. These firms do not do the same type of lit and are not in the same cities. They are not direct competitors except at OCI, and all are at the top of their respective markets. WLRK has very good white-collar and general lit practices and an outstanding Delaware practice.

If the OPs are the type of candidates to get offers from both, they almost assuredly will get a clerkship (if they don't already have one). Thus, getting a return offer isn't of the highest importance. And FWIW, I know people who did get return offers from those places after summering there.

Regarding WLRK, yes agree they're top tier for Delaware, etc. However to clarify, I stand by my original intent which is that the 4 firms I listed are on a tier of their own for appellate litigation, which is what I assume OPs are interested in. And yes I acknowledge these prestige games are stupid, but again, my assumption is that OPs value prestige.

I think this post betrays how little you know about these firms and how hesitant you should be to give advice about them. Susman is not an appellate firm. It's a trial firm. And, while W&C has an appellate practice, it is first and foremast a general commercial litigation/investigations firm.

It's similarly bad advice to tell somebody to split between two programs without clear full-time offer processes (I'm not sure about Kellogg's, but do know that Susman's in NY is deeply opaque and far from guaranteed). Telling somebody to bank on post-clerkship recruiting as a key part of planning their career is, frankly, absurd.

Truth told, I'm having trouble believing this isn't a troll. The OP clearly states that they are interested primarily in trial work rather then appellate work.

[The Lsat Airbender]

If the OPs are the type of candidates to get offers from both, they almost assuredly will get a clerkship (if they don't already have one). Thus, getting a return offer isn't of the highest importance. And FWIW, I know people who did get return offers from those places after summering there.

Regarding WLRK, yes agree they're top tier for Delaware, etc. However to clarify, I stand by my original intent which is that the 4 firms I listed are on a tier of their own for appellate litigation, which is what I assume OPs are interested in. And yes I acknowledge these prestige games are stupid, but again, my assumption is that OPs value prestige.

OOP mentioned exit opps, so not sure about the bolded. Appellate is super prestige-y, but that doesn't mean it's the best outcome in any given case.

[Anonymous User]

I'm also choosing between Susman NY and Kellogg. Has anyone else heard things about how the two firms compare and what their strengths are?

Don't choose between them. Do both unless you have the option of splitting with a place like Munger or Williams and Connolly. Wachtell is great, but it isn't top tier in litigation like those 4 firms are.

If you happen to have MOT or WC, then it's a harder decision. Otherwise no brainer IMO if you're focused on trial/appellate.

Neither Susman nor Kellogg guarantees offers so you should do WLRK for one. Plus Susman and Kellogg do not have full summer programs. And I’ve frankly literally never heard anything good about Kellogg besides the comp, whereas (beyond the insane hours) Susman NY has a great culture and WLRK has a good-for-biglaw one.

Also the idea that MTO or W&C are on a meaningfully higher tier than WLRK is a law student giveaway. These firms do not do the same type of lit and are not in the same cities. They are not direct competitors except at OCI, and all are at the top of their respective markets. WLRK has very good white-collar and general lit practices and an outstanding Delaware practice.

If the OPs are the type of candidates to get offers from both, they almost assuredly will get a clerkship (if they don't already have one). Thus, getting a return offer isn't of the highest importance. And FWIW, I know people who did get return offers from those places after summering there.

Regarding WLRK, yes agree they're top tier for Delaware, etc. However to clarify, I stand by my original intent which is that the 4 firms I listed are on a tier of their own for appellate litigation, which is what I assume OPs are interested in. And yes I acknowledge these prestige games are stupid, but again, my assumption is that OPs value prestige.

WLRK/Susman/Kellogg are not close to the top of the heap for appellate work. MTO and W&C have very good appellate practices built around a handful of people, but many other big firms (Wilmer, Jones Day, Gibson, Jenner, Sidley, etc.) and boutiques (Clement & Murphy, MoloLamken, etc.) have comparably strong appellate practices.

[Anonymous User]

I'm also choosing between Susman NY and Kellogg. Has anyone else heard things about how the two firms compare and what their strengths are?

Don't choose between them. Do both unless you have the option of splitting with a place like Munger or Williams and Connolly. Wachtell is great, but it isn't top tier in litigation like those 4 firms are.

If you happen to have MOT or WC, then it's a harder decision. Otherwise no brainer IMO if you're focused on trial/appellate.

Neither Susman nor Kellogg guarantees offers so you should do WLRK for one. Plus Susman and Kellogg do not have full summer programs. And I’ve frankly literally never heard anything good about Kellogg besides the comp, whereas (beyond the insane hours) Susman NY has a great culture and WLRK has a good-for-biglaw one.

Also the idea that MTO or W&C are on a meaningfully higher tier than WLRK is a law student giveaway. These firms do not do the same type of lit and are not in the same cities. They are not direct competitors except at OCI, and all are at the top of their respective markets. WLRK has very good white-collar and general lit practices and an outstanding Delaware practice.

If the OPs are the type of candidates to get offers from both, they almost assuredly will get a clerkship (if they don't already have one). Thus, getting a return offer isn't of the highest importance. And FWIW, I know people who did get return offers from those places after summering there.

Regarding WLRK, yes agree they're top tier for Delaware, etc. However to clarify, I stand by my original intent which is that the 4 firms I listed are on a tier of their own for appellate litigation, which is what I assume OPs are interested in. And yes I acknowledge these prestige games are stupid, but again, my assumption is that OPs value prestige.

WLRK/Susman/Kellogg are not close to the top of the heap for appellate work. MTO and W&C have very good appellate practices built around a handful of people, but many other big firms (Wilmer, Jones Day, Gibson, Jenner, Sidley, etc.) and boutiques (Clement & Murphy, MoloLamken, etc.) have comparably strong appellate practices.

Kellogg does have a good appellate practice but yeah, this list does not make sense for someone targeting appellate. These firms all do different things but none have big appellate shops (yes, Lisa Blatt is at W&C, but it’s a small group compared to a GDC, JD, or LW).

[Anonymous User]

Post clerkship, if you could get any of these jobs and you are prestige focused, what would you choose? Specifically between Kellogg and Susman?

Also if anyone has any input on Wilkinson Stekloff or Hueston Hennigan?

Goal is likely to be there for a couple years and return to Florida where none of these firms have a presence.

[The Lsat Airbender]

Post clerkship, if you could get any of these jobs and you are prestige focused, what would you choose? Specifically between Kellogg and Susman?

Also if anyone has any input on Wilkinson Stekloff or Hueston Hennigan?

Goal is likely to be there for a couple years and return to Florida where none of these firms have a presence.

then it doesn't matter which of these firms you work at

[Anonymous User]

Post clerkship, if you could get any of these jobs and you are prestige focused, what would you choose? Specifically between Kellogg and Susman?

Also if anyone has any input on Wilkinson Stekloff or Hueston Hennigan?

Goal is likely to be there for a couple years and return to Florida where none of these firms have a presence.

Are you a clerk or a 1L looking forwards?

IME a lot of people get sick of moving by the time they’re post-clerkship and skip the “biglaw for a couple of years” step. By that age you may be at a significantly different life stage (e.g. not many 1Ls are married or engaged, but at least half of clerks are). So if you’re a 1L I would strongly consider splitting w/ e.g. BSF Miami, which has very good clerkship bonuses anyway. Plus you can make FL connections.

But if you’re a clerk and you’re asking the question non-hypothetically, SG unless you want to live in DC for the reasons described above.