3.1x GPA T10 Forum

[yoyo2333]

Hi all,

I am finding myself in a difficult position going into OCI season. I was originally aiming to attend HYS but some events sped up the process and I ended up at a lower T10. I also had a rough first semester so I am now sitting at a 3.1 (I was slightly above median second semester). My aim in pursuing a law career as a whole was only Biglaw – I like business and transactional stuff so thats what I worked for since I was 16 which means although my undergrad GPA is summa cum laude and I did great on the LSAT I do not have marketable skills to drop out and do something else. I also can't see myself doing any government legal work; criminal law and state law is something that I am really apathetic towards so I know my work product in those areas won't be to a standard I want to associate with myself. How should I view going into OCI with this GPA? Is it a high likelihood i'll manage something, uphill battle, or a crap shoot (I mostly ask to stress manage; I have read essentially every post i this forums history from below median students, multiple times at that). In the event I do strike out what can I do to find my way into biglaw eventually or has the ship sailed? I can see myself hunkering down and graduating with a 3.4-3.5 GPA if there is a chance. I know understand law school exams and application unlike the Fall Semester of 1L. I am willing to take any pathway so long as I end up in a biglaw transactional job because that is truly what I have always tailored my career toward and I know feel completely lost. Thank you all for the help.

[Anonymous User]

Was in a similar situation. You need to be realistic and pursue firms that aren't popular and have geographic flexibility. I went to a secondary market to a firm not ranked in the v100 but that paid $190k. I was still interviewing mid August but it worked out.

People who weren't geographically flexible (besides those aiming just NYC) had the worst outcomes. 1 classmate of mine with GPA on the low 3.1 completely struck out and got a job 2L spring in a small firm that paid hourly. The classmate continued applying, with way better grades during 3L and landed in a $140k mid sized firm in a major market. Another classmate was interviewing into October of 2L and landed an SA with one of those employment law only firms, but the pay's very low. I know someone doing public interest but their grades didn't improve much by 3L, so landing a firm offer wasn't feasible

Your best bet is to blanket transactional in NYC and maybe look into secondary markets. I interviewed in regions where I didn't have any ties but was able to spin good answers during interviews and got multiple offers in secondary markets.

[yoyo2333]

Was in a similar situation. You need to be realistic and pursue firms that aren't popular and have geographic flexibility. I went to a secondary market to a firm not ranked in the v100 but that paid $190k. I was still interviewing mid August but it worked out.

People who weren't geographically flexible (besides those aiming just NYC) had the worst outcomes. 1 classmate of mine with GPA on the low 3.1 completely struck out and got a job 2L spring in a small firm that paid hourly. The classmate continued applying, with way better grades during 3L and landed in a $140k mid sized firm in a major market. Another classmate was interviewing into October of 2L and landed an SA with one of those employment law only firms, but the pay's very low. I know someone doing public interest but their grades didn't improve much by 3L, so landing a firm offer wasn't feasible

Your best bet is to blanket transactional in NYC and maybe look into secondary markets. I interviewed in regions where I didn't have any ties but was able to spin good answers during interviews and got multiple offers in secondary markets.

Glad it worked out for you! I am very flexible from a geographic point of view i.e. I have no issue working in places like Charlotte, Delaware, Philly, etc; would appreciate it if you can recommend any other secondary markets for me to pursue. I know people say do not pursue a legal degree for the money. I do not really think I did that because I genuinely believed my skill sets are most optimal for being a transactional lawyer however salary is more important to me than work life balance or anything of that sort and 190k sounds great if I am able to pull off a similar feat to yours.

[Anonymous User]

Markets like Charlotte, Delaware, and Philly may be harder to crack, especially without ties, since the summer classes are much smaller. Some of those offices are surprisingly selective.

Your best strategy would probably be to go for less competitive firms in NY for transactional work. I knew several people at my T10 with sub 3.3 GPAs who managed to land multiple transactional offers in NY. One of them is working at a V20.

Practice interviewing and apply wisely. Hope is not lost!

[Anonymous User]

Was in a similar situation. You need to be realistic and pursue firms that aren't popular and have geographic flexibility. I went to a secondary market to a firm not ranked in the v100 but that paid $190k. I was still interviewing mid August but it worked out.

People who weren't geographically flexible (besides those aiming just NYC) had the worst outcomes. 1 classmate of mine with GPA on the low 3.1 completely struck out and got a job 2L spring in a small firm that paid hourly. The classmate continued applying, with way better grades during 3L and landed in a $140k mid sized firm in a major market. Another classmate was interviewing into October of 2L and landed an SA with one of those employment law only firms, but the pay's very low. I know someone doing public interest but their grades didn't improve much by 3L, so landing a firm offer wasn't feasible

Your best bet is to blanket transactional in NYC and maybe look into secondary markets. I interviewed in regions where I didn't have any ties but was able to spin good answers during interviews and got multiple offers in secondary markets.

Glad it worked out for you! I am very flexible from a geographic point of view i.e. I have no issue working in places like Charlotte, Delaware, Philly, etc; would appreciate it if you can recommend any other secondary markets for me to pursue. I know people say do not pursue a legal degree for the money. I do not really think I did that because I genuinely believed my skill sets are most optimal for being a transactional lawyer however salary is more important to me than work life balance or anything of that sort and 190k sounds great if I am able to pull off a similar feat to yours.

You can always lateral down the line and transfer your UBE score if in one of those states. Those are good secondary markets. I recommend you look into them and also look at Boston (a friend of mine landed market-paying there without ties and barely median), Atlanta, Seattle, Houston/Dallas (they hire earlier so they might not have that many openings by the end of July), Cleveland, Minneapolis, Denver, Detroit, and Milwaukee. California can be very competitive but you should give it a try if possible.

You're right about focusing on transactional, all my offers ended up being transactional or with an opportunity to rotate in lit and transactional. Litigation could be doable in some places but it's not worth it to risk it.

Even if you end up in a city that's not your cup of tea, it's easier to leverage your return offer from your SA to trade up (and improved grades -- if your grades don't improve trading up's pretty much out of the picture). I ended up liking my firm a lot and the cost of living in my secondary market is cheaper, so I'll be staying here while I pay my debt and maybe just permanently, I liked that I was able to move into regulatory and transactional at the end of the summer, so no complaints here.

Best of luck in this process. I know it's draining, just keep at it until you get your offers

[Anonymous User]

In the event you didn’t already run into it,
here is my thread from 6 years ago, when I was in your shoes:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=278681

The advice therein is very solid — i.e. focus on targeting non-elite firms paying market (or close to it), try to network with alumni at those firms before OCI (so you can later reference it at your interview — tactfully— to illustrate your genuine interest in the firm), and fine tune your interviewing skills.

FWIW, I ended up with 8 callbacks and 4 offers, chose to go with a v50 firm in my desired secondary market (think Charlotte/Atlanta/Dallas), summered, got the full time offer, and have been there ever since. I am currently a 4th year associate making 300k (after bonus), regularly receive strong reviews, and able to provide my young family a very comfortable life, including living in a 5000 sq ft house in the suburbs, access to great schools and parks, savings in the bank, nice cars, etc.

1L grades are not the be-all end-all. You can totally do this!!

[yoyo2333]

Was in a similar situation. You need to be realistic and pursue firms that aren't popular and have geographic flexibility. I went to a secondary market to a firm not ranked in the v100 but that paid $190k. I was still interviewing mid August but it worked out.

People who weren't geographically flexible (besides those aiming just NYC) had the worst outcomes. 1 classmate of mine with GPA on the low 3.1 completely struck out and got a job 2L spring in a small firm that paid hourly. The classmate continued applying, with way better grades during 3L and landed in a $140k mid sized firm in a major market. Another classmate was interviewing into October of 2L and landed an SA with one of those employment law only firms, but the pay's very low. I know someone doing public interest but their grades didn't improve much by 3L, so landing a firm offer wasn't feasible

Your best bet is to blanket transactional in NYC and maybe look into secondary markets. I interviewed in regions where I didn't have any ties but was able to spin good answers during interviews and got multiple offers in secondary markets.

Glad it worked out for you! I am very flexible from a geographic point of view i.e. I have no issue working in places like Charlotte, Delaware, Philly, etc; would appreciate it if you can recommend any other secondary markets for me to pursue. I know people say do not pursue a legal degree for the money. I do not really think I did that because I genuinely believed my skill sets are most optimal for being a transactional lawyer however salary is more important to me than work life balance or anything of that sort and 190k sounds great if I am able to pull off a similar feat to yours.

You can always lateral down the line and transfer your UBE score if in one of those states. Those are good secondary markets. I recommend you look into them and also look at Boston (a friend of mine landed market-paying there without ties and barely median), Atlanta, Seattle, Houston/Dallas (they hire earlier so they might not have that many openings by the end of July), Cleveland, Minneapolis, Denver, Detroit, and Milwaukee. California can be very competitive but you should give it a try if possible.

You're right about focusing on transactional, all my offers ended up being transactional or with an opportunity to rotate in lit and transactional. Litigation could be doable in some places but it's not worth it to risk it.

Even if you end up in a city that's not your cup of tea, it's easier to leverage your return offer from your SA to trade up (and improved grades -- if your grades don't improve trading up's pretty much out of the picture). I ended up liking my firm a lot and the cost of living in my secondary market is cheaper, so I'll be staying here while I pay my debt and maybe just permanently, I liked that I was able to move into regulatory and transactional at the end of the summer, so no complaints here.

Best of luck in this process. I know it's draining, just keep at it until you get your offers

Thank you so much for the detailed research I appreciate it beyond what my words can express. In terms of practice area I think I lucked out in terms of already wanting to do transactional so being locked out of litigation does not really hurt me I am also trying to create contingencies by looking at some BigFed agencies and possibly moving to biglaw after a stint there if I do strike out.

You are right about the secondary markets and cities; I view working there like a doctor going to do a residency and honestly I just really need the experience I have no geographic limitations so I have no issue settling there in the future if life leads that way. Ultimately when I look back on my Fall grades I just cringe a lot I know if put back into that place I can easily attain median; it was just a studying strategy deficiency on my end that I quickly resolved for the second semester and I know I have the ability to graduate at or higher than a 3.4.

Thank you again for your kind words I will keep the faith and hopefully update this forum with my results.

[yoyo2333]

In the event you didn’t already run into it,
here is my thread from 6 years ago, when I was in your shoes:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=278681

The advice therein is very solid — i.e. focus on targeting non-elite firms paying market (or close to it), try to network with alumni at those firms before OCI (so you can later reference it at your interview — tactfully— to illustrate your genuine interest in the firm), and fine tune your interviewing skills.

FWIW, I ended up with 8 callbacks and 4 offers, chose to go with a v50 firm in my desired secondary market (think Charlotte/Atlanta/Dallas), summered, got the full time offer, and have been there ever since. I am currently a 4th year associate making 300k (after bonus), regularly receive strong reviews, and able to provide my young family a very comfortable life, including living in a 5000 sq ft house in the suburbs, access to great schools and parks, savings in the bank, nice cars, etc.

1L grades are not the be-all end-all. You can totally do this!!

I do recall reading this; I used these posts a lot during exams to give me motivation (I was way below 3.1 then and envied that GPA). Unfortunately, I focused so much last semester on improving my grades I did not network as much as I would like; do you think its perhaps too late for me to reach out to alums now? (For reference my school will give out preselects in about a week's time). Congrats on being able to stabilize your life; my girlfriend is currently in med school and the plan was always for me to graduate and help her through residency and then we can start our family so seeing you accomplish that and take care of your family from my position is really inspiring.

Thank you again for your kind words and push it truly helps a lot!

[papermateflair]

The advice in this thread is great. I would add that if there are firms who don't do OCI at your school (I know my firm doesn't send people to every single t10 because we haven't had success at certain schools in the past) then you should 100% start reaching out to alumni at those firms now. One good conversation with someone at the firm can get you a screener, and if you can show why you are interested in *that* firm (because you've done research, talked to folks at the firm, etc) then you can get a callback and then it's up to you. Firms who don't usually send people to OCI at your school may be less familiar with your school's grading policy, and alumni really want more people "like them" at their own firm, so seeing someone from their school who is excited about them and their firm can make them more excited about you.

[Anonymous User]

I do recall reading this; I used these posts a lot during exams to give me motivation (I was way below 3.1 then and envied that GPA). Unfortunately, I focused so much last semester on improving my grades I did not network as much as I would like; do you think its perhaps too late for me to reach out to alums now? (For reference my school will give out preselects in about a week's time). Congrats on being able to stabilize your life; my girlfriend is currently in med school and the plan was always for me to graduate and help her through residency and then we can start our family so seeing you accomplish that and take care of your family from my position is really inspiring.

Thank you again for your kind words and push it truly helps a lot!

Same anon as above here.

I do not think it is too late at all to reach out to alums -- in fact, the month or so before OCI is prime time to do so. But I would start ASAP. The way to do it is to send a cold e-mail introducing yourself as a current rising 2L at [mutual alma mater]; mention that you are interested in their firm, practice area, and/or geographic legal market; and ask if they could spare 10-15 minutes for a scheduled phone call to chat about their experience. Send as many of these as possible. You will be surprised at the response rate -- mine was probably 75% or more.

Once on the call, be mindful of their time, but ask lots of questions about them, their practice, and general career trajectory/life style. Be human and try to connect on a genuine level -- it won't always work out that way, but you'll be surprised how often it does. Avoid trying to "impress" them and don't go into rigid/formal interview mode. I always liked to have a good ice breaker or two for building rapport -- usually based on universal interests like casually talking about favorite restaurants/activities in the town where your shared undergrad/law school is. Then ease into the law firm/career stuff.

Once you've talked for a while, if it feels natural, don't be afraid to ask whether they'd recommend their firm to current law students or if there is anything they would do differently. Also, if the call goes well, I think it is a good idea to ask if there is anyone else at the firm they recommend you should reach out to -- or if they have any advice about to whom you should submit your application. It won't always pan out, but many people will take this as an opportunity to make an introduction or recommend you to the powers that be.

If nothing else, all of these phone conversations will be excellent practice for your upcoming OCI screeners.

Finally, a couple of final pieces of advice:

1. Remember -- if you get the callback, it means your grades are not considered a dealbreaker. That's what screeners are for. So don't let it weigh you down or affect your confidence at the interview. Always be prepared to discuss grades of course, but of my 8 callbacks, I recall only one specific partner asking why I was below median. It didn't even come up at the other 7 callbacks. Generally, the privilege of a callback means they already believe you are smart/qualified enough to work there; the real purpose of the callback will then be to determine personal fit, practice area interest (don't go too niche), and geographic ties/interest (especially in secondary markets, but even in NYC -- be prepared to sell why you want to be there; never admit you are equally interested in other markets or would want to relocate elsewhere after a few years -- those are traps).

2. Once you secure your first offer from a firm with a historically 100% offer rate, you should treat all of your remaining callbacks like dating. The goal is to like the firm you choose as much as the firm likes you. Obviously the first and foremost is gainful employment, but once you secure that, you can and should become pickier about things.

GOOD LUCK, OP!

[Anonymous User]

Was in a similar situation. You need to be realistic and pursue firms that aren't popular and have geographic flexibility. I went to a secondary market to a firm not ranked in the v100 but that paid $190k. I was still interviewing mid August but it worked out.

People who weren't geographically flexible (besides those aiming just NYC) had the worst outcomes. 1 classmate of mine with GPA on the low 3.1 completely struck out and got a job 2L spring in a small firm that paid hourly. The classmate continued applying, with way better grades during 3L and landed in a $140k mid sized firm in a major market. Another classmate was interviewing into October of 2L and landed an SA with one of those employment law only firms, but the pay's very low. I know someone doing public interest but their grades didn't improve much by 3L, so landing a firm offer wasn't feasible

Your best bet is to blanket transactional in NYC and maybe look into secondary markets. I interviewed in regions where I didn't have any ties but was able to spin good answers during interviews and got multiple offers in secondary markets.

Glad it worked out for you! I am very flexible from a geographic point of view i.e. I have no issue working in places like Charlotte, Delaware, Philly, etc; would appreciate it if you can recommend any other secondary markets for me to pursue. I know people say do not pursue a legal degree for the money. I do not really think I did that because I genuinely believed my skill sets are most optimal for being a transactional lawyer however salary is more important to me than work life balance or anything of that sort and 190k sounds great if I am able to pull off a similar feat to yours.

I know the Philly and DE market pretty well. Don’t waste any bids or time on the Dechert or Morgan Lewis Philly offices. They are both more selective with their Philly offices than their NYC offices. It would be far better for to you just apply to their NYC offices for general transactional work. Duane Morris and Blank Rome are significantly less selective but they generally like to see ties or some commitment to the Philly market. I think the respected DE firms that pay a bit under big law market would probably be interested in any T10 applicant with a demonstrable corporate interest and an upward grade trend like yourself. The market is tough right now but I’m confident you can find something good.