Don’t think I want to do biglaw lit. Alternatives? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Currently an SA in NY Lit at a V10. I’m staffed on interesting cases (though obviously not doing all that much in the way of complex work) and I’m pretty sure that the level of complexity is going to be fairly low for the first few years. After two summers at different biglaw firms in lit, I’m pretty sure this isn’t where I want to take my career.

I’m in a bit of a privileged position—I don’t care, whatsoever, about the money. I care far more about doing complex and interesting work, and am definitely willing to take a pay cut—even to zero—in order to do it.

Assuming I drop this firm like a live grenade at the end of the summer, what opportunities exist? I was considering AFPD positions since I’ve done a decent amount of public interest work that intersects with the criminal justice system and that seems very high-impact. I haven’t really interacted with our public interest career services so I don’t have a sense of what’s out there/what I could do.

Are there any obvious options I’m not seeing? As far as I can tell, my biglaw experience seems like it dings me from many roles for not being committed enough, but I really feel like the trade in biglaw doesn’t make sense for my financial situation.

For context: HYS, 40-50% Hs after 2L, 1-2 book prizes (in non-doctrinals), significant public sector experience pre-law school, pro bono leadership/secondary journal roles in law school, decently high profile (but not super flashy) clinic. Not geographically restricted but would prefer NYC or California (or home secondary market). Don’t have a clerkship lined up but planning to apply in 3L.

Edit: as an alternative formulation to the problem, I believe I can tolerate this lack of value for about a year. If I do one year of biglaw lit to a clerkship (ignoring potential clerkship quality/prestige for now), does that lead to meaningfully more complex potential work than a year doing something else (afpd fellowships again come to mind) before a clerkship or no?

[gregfootball2001]

I care far more about doing complex and interesting work, and am definitely willing to take a pay cut—even to zero—in order to do it.

What do you consider to be complex and interesting work? Answering that question will likely lead you where you want to go.

[Anonymous User]

I care far more about doing complex and interesting work, and am definitely willing to take a pay cut—even to zero—in order to do it.

What do you consider to be complex and interesting work? Answering that question will likely lead you where you want to go.

So the matter that pulled me back into litigation was an appeal from a state ALJ to his elected overseeing board, which involved everything from state statutory questions to potential federal preemption issues and a whole host of both procedural and substantive due process violations. That was complex and actually fun—sadly our OC rolled over before oral argument because they were SOL, but it made me stop looking at non-law exits because I saw what a legal career could entail.

I’m also a big fan of times when I get to be righteously angry on my client’s behalf. I got to tear up (over email) another state administrator who clearly thought he knew the law better than us and was trying to implement some (obviously and clearly illegal) policies and procedures, and then get aggro with OC when they tried arguing the legitimacy despite clearly violating the law (they surrendered there too).

I don’t see either of those in securities fraud.

[Anonymous User]

Wait, is the actual answer to this going to a plaintiff's firm? Anyone know if the good ones hire 3Ls? Or is an AFPD role the best shot to having the combo of complex work + getting to be a bit righteous/angry?

[Anonymous User]

Home secondary market seems like it might be a good option if you can find a boutique there that does cool work?

But yeah either plaintiff-side or an individual defense shop seem potentially up your alley.

[Anonymous User]

Are you interested in appellate work? I think there'd be a lot of State SG's who would love to hire someone of your profile, esp. coming off a clerkship, and you'd get experience fast.

I know the office I summered at would. Though admittedly my experience is limited to talking to and working with FedSoc-affiliated SGs.

[Anonymous User]

Are you interested in appellate work? I think there'd be a lot of State SG's who would love to hire someone of your profile, esp. coming off a clerkship, and you'd get experience fast.

I know the office I summered at would. Though admittedly my experience is limited to talking to and working with FedSoc-affiliated SGs.

In theory yes—but aren’t those roles typically crazy difficult/grade sensitive? I’ve been under the impression you needed a much higher percentage of Hs than I currently have, especially for the better qol states.

[Anonymous User]

Are you interested in appellate work? I think there'd be a lot of State SG's who would love to hire someone of your profile, esp. coming off a clerkship, and you'd get experience fast.

I know the office I summered at would. Though admittedly my experience is limited to talking to and working with FedSoc-affiliated SGs.

In theory yes—but aren’t those roles typically crazy difficult/grade sensitive? I’ve been under the impression you needed a much higher percentage of Hs than I currently have, especially for the better qol states.

Depends on the exact position, but it's definitely worth applying if you are interested. But some of these are more like 1-year gap filler-type positions for people with multiple clerkships.

[lavarman84]

You could do impact lit for a nonprofit. You get both the righteous anger that comes with fighting unjust laws and government overreach plus the intellectual challenge of working on cutting edge legal issues and helping to create law. If you can't land a clerkship straight out of law school, you could try applying for fellowships.

[Anonymous User]

It sounds like you want to work at a litigation boutique, ideally on the plaintiff side. Kellogg / Susman / Molo would have tons of complex issues like that, but it'd be a bit of a stretch (and you'd need a clerkship).

Since you're at HLS, I'd try talking to people at HPLA. They're doing a happy hour in NY next week, so maybe you could get a sense of things there.
Skip the securities firms since you don't like that, but places like Lieff Cabraser, Edelson, Keller Postman, Dovel, Hausfeld, etc. could have positions you would enjoy, though not all of those are in NY / California. Plaintiffs' firms are less structured in terms of hiring timelines, so I think someone with half H's and a V10 summer would be competitive as a 3L candidate.

I will say, plaintiff-side work is fairly different from being a public defender since it's civil, not criminal, so it's probably a decision you should think about now, before picking one or the other.

[Anonymous User]

You could do impact lit for a nonprofit. You get both the righteous anger that comes with fighting unjust laws and government overreach plus the intellectual challenge of working on cutting edge legal issues and helping to create law. If you can't land a clerkship straight out of law school, you could try applying for fellowships.

The chatter I’ve heard on those is that they would look at two biglaw summers as marking me as insufficiently devoted to the cause. I’m inclined to think this is a path I’d like to try (it’s what I actually came to law school wanting to do before our careers office really starting pushing us into biglaw), but I don’t have a sense of how to get over the hump.

It sounds like you want to work at a litigation boutique, ideally on the plaintiff side. Kellogg / Susman / Molo would have tons of complex issues like that, but it'd be a bit of a stretch (and you'd need a clerkship).

Since you're at HLS, I'd try talking to people at HPLA. They're doing a happy hour in NY next week, so maybe you could get a sense of things there.
Skip the securities firms since you don't like that, but places like Lieff Cabraser, Edelson, Keller Postman, Dovel, Hausfeld, etc. could have positions you would enjoy, though not all of those are in NY / California. Plaintiffs' firms are less structured in terms of hiring timelines, so I think someone with half H's and a V10 summer would be competitive as a 3L candidate.

I will say, plaintiff-side work is fairly different from being a public defender since it's civil, not criminal, so it's probably a decision you should think about now, before picking one or the other.

Damn, maybe I was a bit too obvious lol. Tried to hide school but I guess we’re big enough that it doesn’t matter.

Open to a clerkship obviously, just need to secure it since I didn’t have things ready at the end of 2L (due to my waffling on if law is really for me). I should have the grades for my home district; probably not for SDNY/EDNY (though don’t those soften once you have WE?); and maybe for NDCA/CDCA? CoAs are a different animal, obviously. Would be open to the firms you mentioned but I’ll have to grind as a 3L to pull that off.

Have to miss the happy hour sadly, but I’ll touch base with them in the future. To clarify, I don’t get that feeling from seclit defense—maybe I would from securities plaintiff work? I’ll look into those firms you mentioned.

As for the Crim/civil difference—yeah, that makes sense. I’ll think on that.

[Anonymous User]

Wait, is the actual answer to this going to a plaintiff's firm? Anyone know if the good ones hire 3Ls? Or is an AFPD role the best shot to having the combo of complex work + getting to be a bit righteous/angry?

1. It is quite difficult to get an AFPD job right out of law school. You can look online and see there are only about 15-20 AFPD/R&W positions open across the country at any given time. You may have some success looking at offices in less desirable locations, but even then most offices look for people that are trial ready. Otherwise, the SD office does tend to hire new grads, but typically only for fellowship-type jobs.

2. I don't know if I would say that you do complex work as an AFPD. There can be some remote issues that come up time to time, but you're often addressing fairly routine issues in common cases (lots of drugs and guns). You should apply to these types of positions if you like working with clients--and helping them through these difficult situations--and less so because you want to address complex issues

[Anonymous User]

Wait, is the actual answer to this going to a plaintiff's firm? Anyone know if the good ones hire 3Ls? Or is an AFPD role the best shot to having the combo of complex work + getting to be a bit righteous/angry?

1. It is quite difficult to get an AFPD job right out of law school. You can look online and see there are only about 15-20 AFPD/R&W positions open across the country at any given time. You may have some success looking at offices in less desirable locations, but even then most offices look for people that are trial ready. Otherwise, the SD office does tend to hire new grads, but typically only for fellowship-type jobs.

2. I don't know if I would say that you do complex work as an AFPD. There can be some remote issues that come up time to time, but you're often addressing fairly routine issues in common cases (lots of drugs and guns). You should apply to these types of positions if you like working with clients--and helping them through these difficult situations--and less so because you want to address complex issues

I have a mild connect with SDCA, and a slightly stronger connection with NDCA (which does have an unpaid fellowship program)--I'm definitely not treating either as anything close to a shoo-in, but my connections have definitely pitched them as a way to cut your teeth with trial/appellate experience as early as possible in your career.

I do like working with clients, but it's not as high a priority for me as getting that complex experience ASAP.

[lavarman84]

You could do impact lit for a nonprofit. You get both the righteous anger that comes with fighting unjust laws and government overreach plus the intellectual challenge of working on cutting edge legal issues and helping to create law. If you can't land a clerkship straight out of law school, you could try applying for fellowships.

The chatter I’ve heard on those is that they would look at two biglaw summers as marking me as insufficiently devoted to the cause. I’m inclined to think this is a path I’d like to try (it’s what I actually came to law school wanting to do before our careers office really starting pushing us into biglaw), but I don’t have a sense of how to get over the hump.

If you do a semester internship with an impact lit org, it'll help. That plus clerking probably gets you over the hump if you're willing to apply relatively broadly. Hell, even if you started in biglaw, it's not necessarily fatal. If you clerked or put a lot of effort into pro bono, you can make the switch. I know plenty of folks in this space who were formerly in biglaw.

[Anonymous User]

Wait, is the actual answer to this going to a plaintiff's firm? Anyone know if the good ones hire 3Ls? Or is an AFPD role the best shot to having the combo of complex work + getting to be a bit righteous/angry?

1. It is quite difficult to get an AFPD job right out of law school. You can look online and see there are only about 15-20 AFPD/R&W positions open across the country at any given time. You may have some success looking at offices in less desirable locations, but even then most offices look for people that are trial ready. Otherwise, the SD office does tend to hire new grads, but typically only for fellowship-type jobs.

2. I don't know if I would say that you do complex work as an AFPD. There can be some remote issues that come up time to time, but you're often addressing fairly routine issues in common cases (lots of drugs and guns). You should apply to these types of positions if you like working with clients--and helping them through these difficult situations--and less so because you want to address complex issues

I have a mild connect with SDCA, and a slightly stronger connection with NDCA (which does have an unpaid fellowship program)--I'm definitely not treating either as anything close to a shoo-in, but my connections have definitely pitched them as a way to cut your teeth with trial/appellate experience as early as possible in your career.

I do like working with clients, but it's not as high a priority for me as getting that complex experience ASAP.

Quoted Anon with AFPD comment. It does not seem like the right fit for your goals.

[Anonymous User]

You could do impact lit for a nonprofit. You get both the righteous anger that comes with fighting unjust laws and government overreach plus the intellectual challenge of working on cutting edge legal issues and helping to create law. If you can't land a clerkship straight out of law school, you could try applying for fellowships.

The chatter I’ve heard on those is that they would look at two biglaw summers as marking me as insufficiently devoted to the cause. I’m inclined to think this is a path I’d like to try (it’s what I actually came to law school wanting to do before our careers office really starting pushing us into biglaw), but I don’t have a sense of how to get over the hump.

If you do a semester internship with an impact lit org, it'll help. That plus clerking probably gets you over the hump if you're willing to apply relatively broadly. Hell, even if you started in biglaw, it's not necessarily fatal. If you clerked or put a lot of effort into pro bono, you can make the switch. I know plenty of folks in this space who were formerly in biglaw.

I'll look into that, thanks!

Quoted Anon with AFPD comment. It does not seem like the right fit for your goals.

You're probably right--I think the civil side is more up my alley in general.

[Anonymous User]

Wait, is the actual answer to this going to a plaintiff's firm? Anyone know if the good ones hire 3Ls? Or is an AFPD role the best shot to having the combo of complex work + getting to be a bit righteous/angry?

1. It is quite difficult to get an AFPD job right out of law school. You can look online and see there are only about 15-20 AFPD/R&W positions open across the country at any given time. You may have some success looking at offices in less desirable locations, but even then most offices look for people that are trial ready. Otherwise, the SD office does tend to hire new grads, but typically only for fellowship-type jobs.

2. I don't know if I would say that you do complex work as an AFPD. There can be some remote issues that come up time to time, but you're often addressing fairly routine issues in common cases (lots of drugs and guns). You should apply to these types of positions if you like working with clients--and helping them through these difficult situations--and less so because you want to address complex issues

I have a mild connect with SDCA, and a slightly stronger connection with NDCA (which does have an unpaid fellowship program)--I'm definitely not treating either as anything close to a shoo-in, but my connections have definitely pitched them as a way to cut your teeth with trial/appellate experience as early as possible in your career.

I do like working with clients, but it's not as high a priority for me as getting that complex experience ASAP.

I think the major benefit of AFPD is that you get plenty of courtroom/trial experience (not as much as a state PD would, but more manageably due to lower caseload and generally higher resources, and also with much more writing experience). That is more complex experience for a litigator in the sense of actually doing all the things from start to finish (which is a learning curve) and great experience if you want to be a trial lawyer. It's true that most of the time it's not going to be especially complex material, certainly not right away (the concepts behind a motion to suppress a car stop or to challenge a warrant are not that complex, although the job can involve quite a bit of creativity in terms of fitting your client's facts into a particular legal position). I do think that if you found procedural and substantive due process violations interesting, criminal defense could work for you.

One thing to keep in mind is that AFPDs lose, a lot. Not because they're not brilliant, or that the government is infallible, but USAOs have a lot of resources and they only bring cases they expect to win in a way that's not true at the state level. They aren't always right about that, and there is a lot of room for AFPDs to help their clients, but I think that AFPD offices also take on some elements of impact litigation, where they develop policies to push particular kinds of litigation/outcomes to try to nudge the law into a more favorable direction (not suggesting this is a problem, it absolutely isn't, just that how satisfying it is to you personally will depend on your temperament). There is certainly a lot of opportunity for righteous anger on behalf of your client, either way. (I am not an AFPD and actually find the less angry ones much more compelling advocates, but not sure they care what I think about it!)

All that said, people are right that these jobs are tough to get out of law school. I have seen one person join the AFPD out of a clerkship, but they were a Spanish speaker in a district with very high volume that required their attorneys to be fluent in Spanish.

Your example of complex work is sort of interesting. First, it's really appellate work, and it sounds sort of like what you mean by complex is more purely legal than whatever else other kind of work you were doing (because, no disrespect meant, it doesn't sound like it was actually especially complex in the grand scheme of the profession, especially if you, a summer associate, got to tear up a state administrator and get aggro with OC; appeals from ALJs to an overseeing board are not rare). Or it may also just be that the work actually involved individuals in a more significant way than in researching securities fraud? I guess I'd kind of push back a little on what you mean by complex and what kind of work would reproduce that for you.

[Anonymous User]

I think the major benefit of AFPD is that you get plenty of courtroom/trial experience (not as much as a state PD would, but more manageably due to lower caseload and generally higher resources, and also with much more writing experience). That is more complex experience for a litigator in the sense of actually doing all the things from start to finish (which is a learning curve) and great experience if you want to be a trial lawyer. It's true that most of the time it's not going to be especially complex material, certainly not right away (the concepts behind a motion to suppress a car stop or to challenge a warrant are not that complex, although the job can involve quite a bit of creativity in terms of fitting your client's facts into a particular legal position). I do think that if you found procedural and substantive due process violations interesting, criminal defense could work for you.

One thing to keep in mind is that AFPDs lose, a lot. Not because they're not brilliant, or that the government is infallible, but USAOs have a lot of resources and they only bring cases they expect to win in a way that's not true at the state level. They aren't always right about that, and there is a lot of room for AFPDs to help their clients, but I think that AFPD offices also take on some elements of impact litigation, where they develop policies to push particular kinds of litigation/outcomes to try to nudge the law into a more favorable direction (not suggesting this is a problem, it absolutely isn't, just that how satisfying it is to you personally will depend on your temperament). There is certainly a lot of opportunity for righteous anger on behalf of your client, either way. (I am not an AFPD and actually find the less angry ones much more compelling advocates, but not sure they care what I think about it!)

So this is why I was most interested when talking with people in SDCA/NDCA about the opportunity--I want to go to trial/have the complexity of litigation early on, instead of waiting to become a 4th year before second-chairing my first deposition.

Your example of complex work is sort of interesting. First, it's really appellate work, and it sounds sort of like what you mean by complex is more purely legal than whatever else other kind of work you were doing (because, no disrespect meant, it doesn't sound like it was actually especially complex in the grand scheme of the profession, especially if you, a summer associate, got to tear up a state administrator and get aggro with OC; appeals from ALJs to an overseeing board are not rare). Or it may also just be that the work actually involved individuals in a more significant way than in researching securities fraud? I guess I'd kind of push back a little on what you mean by complex and what kind of work would reproduce that for you.

To be clear, this was in clinic, not as a summer--not sure which way that cuts. Junior associates here clearly don't get that much leeway at all, even on pro bono matters (also, FWIW, this particular overseeing board hadn't had an appeal in at least the past 3 years, but it's a weird niche area of the law that doesn't see much play).

That said I think this is a good point more generally--I liked having more real stakes behind what I was doing on top of the underlying litigation, but I also liked pulling apart how the law was working.

So we've got:

1) Ability to go to trial/have direct responsibility early
2) Some level of real impact for clients
3) At least some potential complexity in the underlying law

So far I see how AFPD roles (with the various caveats we've discussed), State SG fellowships, impact lit more generally, and plaintiff's work all fit into these at least somewhat. Is there anything else I'm missing? If not, looks like it's networking and clerkship app time for me.

[Anonymous User]

To be clear, this was in clinic, not as a summer--not sure which way that cuts. Junior associates here clearly don't get that much leeway at all, even on pro bono matters (also, FWIW, this particular overseeing board hadn't had an appeal in at least the past 3 years, but it's a weird niche area of the law that doesn't see much play).

That said I think this is a good point more generally--I liked having more real stakes behind what I was doing on top of the underlying litigation, but I also liked pulling apart how the law was working.

Whoops, I should have thought of clinic, that makes MUCH more sense.

And I don’t mean in any way to minimize the work you did, I think though it probably just gave you useful perspective on what it’s like to litigate outside the biglaw context and to be involved from the top down rather than working on discrete tasks handed out to you by others.

Anyway, while not having a lot of experience outside biglaw can be a problem for more public interest stuff, given your credentials I don’t think a pivot is out of the question at all, especially since you’re not worried about the money. I’d start hitting up alums in jobs that look interesting to you and just ask them how they got into their field and what someone should do to get into that field.