BigLaw alum now GC taking questions Forum

[Gatriel]

Hey all,

I have some time to kill today so I'll answer any questions you people have:

TT Law school Class of 2013
42% percentile
4 years in Biglawl
5 years in-house
GC of SME

If you have any questions - dump them here and I'll do by best to answer you honestly without mocking you if the questions are offensively dumb.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this. I'm an MVPB median student heading to biglaw. I've been a little stressed about grades for lateraling/in house in the future (part of it is I'm punching quite a bit above my weight - non-URM - in terms of my firm's selectiveness but I just can't summon the motivation to do well in school ever since getting my job).
- What was your path to biglaw?
- Did you lateral during your time in biglaw, and if so did your credentials ever come up in the conversation when you were interviewing?
- How much did credentials matter for your in-house position(s)? And in general to your knowledge how much do credentials matter for in-house positions?

[Gatriel]

My path to BigLaw was via foreign language and leaving the country.

I found that getting into BigLaw from a TT school and not being in the top 10% or so in the bottom of the Great Recession was basically impossible. There was an oversupply of attorneys and demand was retarded at the time. I discovered that US Securities Laws, specifically the US Securities Act of 1933 is essentially the gold standard for all capital markets transactions in the world. E.g. there is a demand for New York qualified attorneys globally. The catch however is you have to speak the local language at least proficiently.

I spoke okay German at the time - so I started sending out applications to relevant partners for SA positions in Germany and got something at K&E in Munich (2011 if I remember correctly) ... due exclusively to the language and me willing to show up to the offices there every day over the summer.

So I did that - next summer was at a Magic Circle firm. I pass the NYBar and again start sending out applications.

I got a position with a T law firm in Frankfurt but required me to take and pass solicitor exam in England and Wales as well. Did that and then was in.

I was doing high-yield debt and private placements for a couple years, partner I worked for was a great partner to work for. Highly knowledgeable, took no shit from anyone (including clients), gave no fucks what other people thought, was very fair - was an absolute slave driver. 80-hour weeks were the norm, I was on a call an hour before my wedding and then had to cancel my honeymoon due to a closing.

Pay was Cravath + COLA.

I switched after the cancelled honeymoon to a TT firm doing only IPOs and private placements - pay was Cravath no COLA hours were slightly better - but my wife got pregnant a couple years later and it was clear BigLaw wasn't compatible with a family so I started to look.

I lateraled directly from the firm into my role at a "Scale Up" at the time. Bigger and older than a startup but still dependent on PE to keep the lights on. I was their first attorney and created the legal department out of a collection of emails and general chaos.

We have 10 attorneys at the organization now, as well as a data privacy and compliance teams I oversee. Equity I have, pay is right at the 50% mark for the area I am in (so high 6 figures starting with a 1) but no bonus and no company car. Hours are great - less than 40 a week and apart from the odd-ball debt/equity round I rarely work past 6 pm and almost never on weekends. Vacations are respected but I am expected to always be available for the board and the boss 24/7 365 to at least chat about something if necessary (although this only happens a couple times a year).

Literally no one apart from my first firm ever asked about grades and my partner told me in the interview he DGAF about grades because the "forced curve turns otherwise normal human beings into alcoholics and sex addicts."

Going in-house was more about a career strategy and chemistry with the CEO. He and I got along well in the interview, we chatted mostly about things not related to the job but life, kids, etc., etc., we talked about what I did at the firms, I brought a couple prospectus and offering memorandums with me to show what I did - he didn't care. He was looking for a "partner in crime" and "someone I can trust not to tell the government where I bury the bodies"

Going in-house has far more to do with social skills than if you were on the law review or were 12% or 4% or whatever.

The skillset you use in-house is very different than that in the law firms. In the firms YOU are the reason the firm makes money. In-house roles you are a line item expense and you are only there out of necessity. Because of that - no one cares about legal theory, or perfect documents, or "what could in theory happen" - everyone wants pragmatic solutions to problems and for you to mitigate legal risks for the company.

[Anonymous User]

My path to BigLaw was via foreign language and leaving the country.

I found that getting into BigLaw from a TT school and not being in the top 10% or so in the bottom of the Great Recession was basically impossible. There was an oversupply of attorneys and demand was retarded at the time. I discovered that US Securities Laws, specifically the US Securities Act of 1933 is essentially the gold standard for all capital markets transactions in the world. E.g. there is a demand for New York qualified attorneys globally. The catch however is you have to speak the local language at least proficiently.

I spoke okay German at the time - so I started sending out applications to relevant partners for SA positions in Germany and got something at K&E in Munich (2011 if I remember correctly) ... due exclusively to the language and me willing to show up to the offices there every day over the summer.

So I did that - next summer was at a Magic Circle firm. I pass the NYBar and again start sending out applications.

I got a position with a T law firm in Frankfurt but required me to take and pass solicitor exam in England and Wales as well. Did that and then was in.

I was doing high-yield debt and private placements for a couple years, partner I worked for was a great partner to work for. Highly knowledgeable, took no shit from anyone (including clients), gave no fucks what other people thought, was very fair - was an absolute slave driver. 80-hour weeks were the norm, I was on a call an hour before my wedding and then had to cancel my honeymoon due to a closing.

Pay was Cravath + COLA.

I switched after the cancelled honeymoon to a TT firm doing only IPOs and private placements - pay was Cravath no COLA hours were slightly better - but my wife got pregnant a couple years later and it was clear BigLaw wasn't compatible with a family so I started to look.

I lateraled directly from the firm into my role at a "Scale Up" at the time. Bigger and older than a startup but still dependent on PE to keep the lights on. I was their first attorney and created the legal department out of a collection of emails and general chaos.

We have 10 attorneys at the organization now, as well as a data privacy and compliance teams I oversee. Equity I have, pay is right at the 50% mark for the area I am in (so high 6 figures starting with a 1) but no bonus and no company car. Hours are great - less than 40 a week and apart from the odd-ball debt/equity round I rarely work past 6 pm and almost never on weekends. Vacations are respected but I am expected to always be available for the board and the boss 24/7 365 to at least chat about something if necessary (although this only happens a couple times a year).

Literally no one apart from my first firm ever asked about grades and my partner told me in the interview he GDAF about grades because the "forced curve turns otherwise normal human beings into alcoholics and sex addicts."

Going in-house was more about a career strategy and chemistry with the CEO. He and I got along well in the interview, we chatted mostly about things not related to the job but life, kids, etc., etc., we talked about what I did at the firms, I brought a couple prospectus and offering memorandums with me to show what I did - he didn't care. He was looking for a "partner in crime" and "someone I can trust not to tell the government where I bury the bodies"

Going in-house has far more to do with social skills than if you were on the law review or were 12% or 4% or whatever.

The skillset you use in-house is very different than that in the law firms. In the firms YOU are the reason the firm makes money. In-house roles you are a line item expense and you are only there out of necessity. Because of that - no one cares about legal theory, or perfect documents, or "what could in theory happen" - everyone wants pragmatic solutions to problems and for you to mitigate legal risks for the company.

Thanks. Sounds like you took a unique path and I'm glad it worked out for you.

Is the demand for NY-qualified lawyers abroad still a thing? I do speak 2 other languages, one at a high proficiency and one that's just conversational (though I'm trying to improve). My firm's not in NY but I'm wondering if it might be worth it to take the NY bar and then waive into my jurisdiction.

[Dr Tobias Funke]

He was looking for a "partner in crime" and "someone I can trust not to tell the government where I bury the bodies"

Good for you, but $180k/year isn't enough for me to go to jail.

[Gatriel]

My path to BigLaw was via foreign language and leaving the country.

I found that getting into BigLaw from a TT school and not being in the top 10% or so in the bottom of the Great Recession was basically impossible. There was an oversupply of attorneys and demand was retarded at the time. I discovered that US Securities Laws, specifically the US Securities Act of 1933 is essentially the gold standard for all capital markets transactions in the world. E.g. there is a demand for New York qualified attorneys globally. The catch however is you have to speak the local language at least proficiently.

I spoke okay German at the time - so I started sending out applications to relevant partners for SA positions in Germany and got something at K&E in Munich (2011 if I remember correctly) ... due exclusively to the language and me willing to show up to the offices there every day over the summer.

So I did that - next summer was at a Magic Circle firm. I pass the NYBar and again start sending out applications.

I got a position with a T law firm in Frankfurt but required me to take and pass solicitor exam in England and Wales as well. Did that and then was in.

I was doing high-yield debt and private placements for a couple years, partner I worked for was a great partner to work for. Highly knowledgeable, took no shit from anyone (including clients), gave no fucks what other people thought, was very fair - was an absolute slave driver. 80-hour weeks were the norm, I was on a call an hour before my wedding and then had to cancel my honeymoon due to a closing.

Pay was Cravath + COLA.

I switched after the cancelled honeymoon to a TT firm doing only IPOs and private placements - pay was Cravath no COLA hours were slightly better - but my wife got pregnant a couple years later and it was clear BigLaw wasn't compatible with a family so I started to look.

I lateraled directly from the firm into my role at a "Scale Up" at the time. Bigger and older than a startup but still dependent on PE to keep the lights on. I was their first attorney and created the legal department out of a collection of emails and general chaos.

We have 10 attorneys at the organization now, as well as a data privacy and compliance teams I oversee. Equity I have, pay is right at the 50% mark for the area I am in (so high 6 figures starting with a 1) but no bonus and no company car. Hours are great - less than 40 a week and apart from the odd-ball debt/equity round I rarely work past 6 pm and almost never on weekends. Vacations are respected but I am expected to always be available for the board and the boss 24/7 365 to at least chat about something if necessary (although this only happens a couple times a year).

Literally no one apart from my first firm ever asked about grades and my partner told me in the interview he GDAF about grades because the "forced curve turns otherwise normal human beings into alcoholics and sex addicts."

Going in-house was more about a career strategy and chemistry with the CEO. He and I got along well in the interview, we chatted mostly about things not related to the job but life, kids, etc., etc., we talked about what I did at the firms, I brought a couple prospectus and offering memorandums with me to show what I did - he didn't care. He was looking for a "partner in crime" and "someone I can trust not to tell the government where I bury the bodies"

Going in-house has far more to do with social skills than if you were on the law review or were 12% or 4% or whatever.

The skillset you use in-house is very different than that in the law firms. In the firms YOU are the reason the firm makes money. In-house roles you are a line item expense and you are only there out of necessity. Because of that - no one cares about legal theory, or perfect documents, or "what could in theory happen" - everyone wants pragmatic solutions to problems and for you to mitigate legal risks for the company.

Thanks. Sounds like you took a unique path and I'm glad it worked out for you.

Is the demand for NY-qualified lawyers abroad still a thing? I do speak 2 other languages, one at a high proficiency and one that's just conversational (though I'm trying to improve). My firm's not in NY but I'm wondering if it might be worth it to take the NY bar and then waive into my jurisdiction.

Yes and no. They’ll take other jurisdictions if they’re starving for associates but they’d prefer New York. I understand the same trick works in Asia but with a California qualification.

[Gatriel]

He was looking for a "partner in crime" and "someone I can trust not to tell the government where I bury the bodies"

Good for you, but $180k/year isn't enough for me to go to jail.

Figure of speech.

[Anonymous User]

He was looking for a "partner in crime" and "someone I can trust not to tell the government where I bury the bodies"

Good for you, but $180k/year isn't enough for me to go to jail.

Figure of speech.

Pretty strange figure of speech... If the CEO wanted something with discretion, he may have picked the wrong guy.

[Anonymous User]

That was obviously a figure of speech - don't understand why anyone is having an issue. Am I reading correct that your base salary is sub $200k and you have 9 other lawyers who are willing to make less than that? My mind is a bit blown at the Comp.

[Anonymous User]

That was obviously a figure of speech - don't understand why anyone is having an issue. Am I reading correct that your base salary is sub $200k and you have 9 other lawyers who are willing to make less than that? My mind is a bit blown at the Comp.

but also equity.

[Anonymous User]

That was obviously a figure of speech - don't understand why anyone is having an issue. Am I reading correct that your base salary is sub $200k and you have 9 other lawyers who are willing to make less than that? My mind is a bit blown at the Comp.

That's a bit confusing to me too. I'm a GC at a start-up, only lawyer there. I'm above $200k and have equity. This salary seems a bit on the low side for someone who runs a whole legal department.

[Anonymous User]

Hey, thanks for doing this. Do you think your initial entrance into KE Germany would work in the current market? I have been trying to lateral to a non-US firm doing securities having no success.

[jotarokujo]

Thanks for doing this. I'm an MVPB median student heading to biglaw. I've been a little stressed about grades for lateraling/in house in the future (part of it is I'm punching quite a bit above my weight - non-URM - in terms of my firm's selectiveness but I just can't summon the motivation to do well in school ever since getting my job).
- What was your path to biglaw?
- Did you lateral during your time in biglaw, and if so did your credentials ever come up in the conversation when you were interviewing?
- How much did credentials matter for your in-house position(s)? And in general to your knowledge how much do credentials matter for in-house positions?

You don't need to pop off in classes, just finish strong. Grades matter less if you really stand out at the firm, but honestly that's not always up to because it's dependent on what kind of assignments you get, so don't bank on getting very impressive/stand out experience

you could try to load up on clinics and whatnot to try to pad the gpa, and you might feel much more motivated in clinics or externships than doctrinals. I don't think non judge employers look down on clinic compared to doctrinals either

[2013]

Helpful info. Just didn’t really appreciate the use of “the r word.” I haven’t heard any educated person use that anywhere.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this. I'm an MVPB median student heading to biglaw. I've been a little stressed about grades for lateraling/in house in the future (part of it is I'm punching quite a bit above my weight - non-URM - in terms of my firm's selectiveness but I just can't summon the motivation to do well in school ever since getting my job).
- What was your path to biglaw?
- Did you lateral during your time in biglaw, and if so did your credentials ever come up in the conversation when you were interviewing?
- How much did credentials matter for your in-house position(s)? And in general to your knowledge how much do credentials matter for in-house positions?

You don't need to pop off in classes, just finish strong. Grades matter less if you really stand out at the firm, but honestly that's not always up to because it's dependent on what kind of assignments you get, so don't bank on getting very impressive/stand out experience

you could try to load up on clinics and whatnot to try to pad the gpa, and you might feel much more motivated in clinics or externships than doctrinals. I don't think non judge employers look down on clinic compared to doctrinals either

Gotcha. So in what ways do grades matter once you're working? When you're lateralling, or even while you're at the firm?

[Anonymous User]

Helpful info. Just didn’t really appreciate the use of “the r word.” I haven’t heard any educated person use that anywhere.

+1, not ok

also lol at this starting as "GC gives advice" and everyone quickly pointing out that he's likely underpaid

[Wanderingdrock]

Helpful info. Just didn’t really appreciate the use of “the r word.” I haven’t heard any educated person use that anywhere.

I read that in the technically correct sense, in that demand was slowed down. Usually one would refer to demand being "depressed," but I understood what was meant and don't think it was being used in the offensive sense.

[2013]

Helpful info. Just didn’t really appreciate the use of “the r word.” I haven’t heard any educated person use that anywhere.

I read that in the technically correct sense, in that demand was slowed down. Usually one would refer to demand being "depressed," but I understood what was meant and don't think it was being used in the offensive sense.

I don’t think it was properly used (it means delayed, not depressed). Also, people have generally moved away from using that work in America. As you noted, there are other words to describe it. I read it as OP saying that demand was weird/messed up/slow at that time.

[nealric]

That was obviously a figure of speech - don't understand why anyone is having an issue. Am I reading correct that your base salary is sub $200k and you have 9 other lawyers who are willing to make less than that? My mind is a bit blown at the Comp.

Yeah, that does seem extremely low for a company large enough to have a 10-attorney legal department in a major U.S. city. Is OP still in Europe?

[johndhi]

How does the GC role compare to your prior in-house roles?

Is the GC role a "24/7" job where you are expected to work nights and weekends? What makes it worth it? If I wanted to decide between these options, which would you recommend and why?
-stay in-house in a relatively senior role but don't gun to go higher up the rankings
-aim to be a career AGC
-go off and become a GC at a small company now and either keep doing that until liquidation a few times, or potentially become GC at a larger company

[Gatriel]

That was obviously a figure of speech - don't understand why anyone is having an issue. Am I reading correct that your base salary is sub $200k and you have 9 other lawyers who are willing to make less than that? My mind is a bit blown at the Comp.

Yeah - I don't hire exclusively out of big law - but we offer real flexibility which makes the paycut worth it.

Work from home. Work from Panama. Work from the Bahamas. Work from Singapore. We don't care. As long as your work gets done on time we're happy.

I've split the legal team into a few sub-specialties with their own head that reports to me. Compensation is adjusted then there is equity of a scale-up, which isn't insignificant.

[Gatriel]

That was obviously a figure of speech - don't understand why anyone is having an issue. Am I reading correct that your base salary is sub $200k and you have 9 other lawyers who are willing to make less than that? My mind is a bit blown at the Comp.

That's a bit confusing to me too. I'm a GC at a start-up, only lawyer there. I'm above $200k and have equity. This salary seems a bit on the low side for someone who runs a whole legal department.

You're also likely in the United States, I am not.

[Gatriel]

Hey, thanks for doing this. Do you think your initial entrance into KE Germany would work in the current market? I have been trying to lateral to a non-US firm doing securities having no success.

I think this probably still would. The firms that do US Securities work are always after native speakers, if for no other reason than to write the Prospectuses and Offering Memorandums. If you were to aim for a few partners in the market in which you speak the language - would be your best shot.

Keep your emails short, 2-3 sentences at most. My CDO back in the day encouraged students to write paragraphs - no one reads them. Who you are, what you are looking for and when, let me know if they're interested.

If you speak another major "money" language - then I'd write it in English. If its a smaller less-common language then write it in that language.

[Gatriel]

Helpful info. Just didn’t really appreciate the use of “the r word.” I haven’t heard any educated person use that anywhere.

Demand was retarded ... e.g. slower than normal.

I am not changing my use of the English language to correspond to someone's feelings. Seesh.

[Gatriel]

How does the GC role compare to your prior in-house roles?

Is the GC role a "24/7" job where you are expected to work nights and weekends? What makes it worth it? If I wanted to decide between these options, which would you recommend and why?
-stay in-house in a relatively senior role but don't gun to go higher up the rankings
-aim to be a career AGC
-go off and become a GC at a small company now and either keep doing that until liquidation a few times, or potentially become GC at a larger company

Kind of the last one. Its common in my market to have a equity plan that irreversibly vests once certain targets are met. If you leave the company, you do not need to "cash out" but you simply take your equity with you minus the strike price.

If you stick around then you put your eggs in one basket so to speak, there are naturally disadvantages.

Explained by example - When my current employer has an exit (assuming exit price is reasonable) - I could retire in my 30s/early 40s and my kids would never need to work either. However, what if my boss empties our general account and takes it to Russia? What if we get hit with some data protection fine and never recover? What if it takes 5 more years for an exit?

All disadvantages one incurs when one stays at the same employer in the "scale-up" market for any length of time.

Another tactic which is fairly common in my market is the C-suite/directors making a move to another company once they're 40-60% vested (so ca 2 years). They retain their shares upon an exit and start vesting at a new employer. If you do this 5x in a decade and you focused more on equity than cash - then you have 5 shots at an exit.