Switching practice groups/firms after SA? Forum

[Anonymous User]

2L here. Currently have an SA in a semi-corporate semi-lit group. Took it over a top white collar group because I absolutely hated legal writing, but I’m actually really enjoying my clinic’s litigation work, which is very investigations-focused. Very much think I may have made the wrong call (especially since I came into law school looking to become an AUSA).

If I’m still feeling this way at the end of the summer, what’s the play to get to white collar from here? I would rather not clerk just yet if I can swing a major city district clerkship after a couple years, but have the grades/school for non-SDNY district or less-competitive CoA. I assume 3L re-recruiting is DOA in this economy?

Edit: Should note, firm I’m going to doesn’t have much white collar work AFAIK, especially not in NY. I’m not 100% committed to NYC but it is preferred.

[Anonymous User]

I’d just try to clerk asap

[Anonymous User]

I’d just try to clerk asap

I’m in a really bad position if that’s the only option. I have the grades for secondary cities (and strong connections to one secondary city district), but I really don’t want to be in a secondary city for the rest of my 20s.

Is there a way to lateral to white collar after a couple years or is that completely dead?

Edit: [deleting so not as to identify]

[Anonymous User]

You probably outed yourself; I would delete. If you're at Y/S, find a clerkship and move over to litigation, shouldn't be that hard. Clerking in a secondary city doesn't mean you have to work there afterwards.

[Anonymous User]

You probably outed yourself; I would delete. If you're at Y/S, find a clerkship and move over to litigation, shouldn't be that hard. Clerking in a secondary city doesn't mean you have to work there afterwards.

It's kind/nice (genuinely) that you recommended that the user delete given risk of self-outing, but perhaps you could edit your post to not include a block quotation of the other user's potentially self-outing post?

[Anonymous User]

I’d just try to clerk asap

I’m in a really bad position if that’s the only option. I have the grades for secondary cities (and strong connections to one secondary city district), but I really don’t want to be in a secondary city for the rest of my 20s.

Is there a way to lateral to white collar after a couple years or is that completely dead?

You probably outed yourself; I would delete.

Good point, deleted relevant info. Mind deleting from your quote?

[Anonymous User]

I’d just try to clerk asap

I’m in a really bad position if that’s the only option. I have the grades for secondary cities (and strong connections to one secondary city district), but I really don’t want to be in a secondary city for the rest of my 20s.

Is there a way to lateral to white collar after a couple years or is that completely dead?

Edit: [deleting so not as to identify]

Nothing ties to you that “secondary city” post clerkship (if “the rest of your 20s” is actually one year, you can deal). Plus I don’t think there’s actually any kind of scientific correlation between grades and “class” of cities so just apply to places where you’d be willing to live.

[Anonymous User]

I experienced something similar. Interviewed for a nonlit group over the summer. Was offered a position at a firm I was pretty happy with. Took a few courses and had a few experiences during 2L that made me think I'd be very interested in litigation. Particularly white collar work.

I was at a firm that had an open assignment system over the summer. I did a few lit assignments and networked with those attorneys. At the end of the summer, I accepted an offer from the group I initially interviewed for but expressed interest to recruiting in maybe switching to lit. A few weeks after this conversation, recruiting asked me to confirm that they had my most recent transcript and they set up an interview with two lit partners. I then had to choose between offers for two different groups.

Even if your firm doesn't have much of a white collar group, it could still be worth it to switch over to litigation within the same firm you have an offer for. You can always lateral later but getting into a litigation group and getting some experience should be the key here if you know what's what you want. In retrospect, my grades were strong enough to where I probably should have said something to my firm before the summer or during the summer, rather than after receiving the offer. But if you have grades that you don't think are as competitive, I'd still get to know lit folks over the summer and shoot my shot.

[Anonymous User]

Clerking in a secondary city doesn't mean you have to work there afterwards.

yeah it seems odd to think you would have to spend the rest of your 20s in that city

[Anonymous User]

Even if your firm doesn't have much of a white collar group, it could still be worth it to switch over to litigation within the same firm you have an offer for. You can always lateral later but getting into a litigation group and getting some experience should be the key here if you know what's what you want. In retrospect, my grades were strong enough to where I probably should have said something to my firm before the summer or during the summer, rather than after receiving the offer. But if you have grades that you don't think are as competitive, I'd still get to know lit folks over the summer and shoot my shot.

I'm not totally sure how much grades typically matter once you're already there as a summer. Do people really look at grades for an internal switch?

[Anonymous User]

I guess my main objection to clerking in a secondary city is that I’ve spent the past few years in rural areas/secondary cities/suburbs and don’t want to spend any more time in places like this anymore. I need an actual city. I could do Chicago? Maybe SF? Have connections to both. But my personal network’s basically entirely in NYC at this point and I really don’t want to be anywhere else.

Is there no way to not leave NYC but pivot to white collar after an SA?

[Anonymous User]

I experienced something similar. Interviewed for a nonlit group over the summer. Was offered a position at a firm I was pretty happy with. Took a few courses and had a few experiences during 2L that made me think I'd be very interested in litigation. Particularly white collar work.

I was at a firm that had an open assignment system over the summer. I did a few lit assignments and networked with those attorneys. At the end of the summer, I accepted an offer from the group I initially interviewed for but expressed interest to recruiting in maybe switching to lit. A few weeks after this conversation, recruiting asked me to confirm that they had my most recent transcript and they set up an interview with two lit partners. I then had to choose between offers for two different groups.

Even if your firm doesn't have much of a white collar group, it could still be worth it to switch over to litigation within the same firm you have an offer for. You can always lateral later but getting into a litigation group and getting some experience should be the key here if you know what's what you want. In retrospect, my grades were strong enough to where I probably should have said something to my firm before the summer or during the summer, rather than after receiving the offer. But if you have grades that you don't think are as competitive, I'd still get to know lit folks over the summer and shoot my shot.

Theoretically my 1L grades were strong enough for V10 NYC lit (had cbs at a few though didn’t hear from most of them before accepting my current firm), but 2L’s been a bit 2LOL so far and I’ve mostly avoided litigation classes (haven’t taken evidence/admin/advanced Civ pro/etc).

[jotarokujo]

Theoretically my 1L grades were strong enough for V10 NYC lit (had cbs at a few though didn’t hear from most of them before accepting my current firm), but 2L’s been a bit 2LOL so far and I’ve mostly avoided litigation classes (haven’t taken evidence/admin/advanced Civ pro/etc).

grades for a "non-competitive CoA" and "secondary city district court" should be more than enough for V10 NYC lit

Also, if you still want to be an AUSA, I'd definitely clerk. A year away from your social circle isn't as bad as it sounds, especially if the city you're in is still pretty big. Plus, if you like law school, the job itself is quite enjoyable

[Anonymous User]

Theoretically my 1L grades were strong enough for V10 NYC lit (had cbs at a few though didn’t hear from most of them before accepting my current firm), but 2L’s been a bit 2LOL so far and I’ve mostly avoided litigation classes (haven’t taken evidence/admin/advanced Civ pro/etc).

grades for a "non-competitive CoA" and "secondary city district court" should be more than enough for V10 NYC lit

Also, if you still want to be an AUSA, I'd definitely clerk. A year away from your social circle isn't as bad as it sounds, especially if the city you're in is still pretty big. Plus, if you like law school, the job itself is quite enjoyable

Problem: I really fucking hate law school. Clinic’s been a saving grace for me since I’m actually getting to do/apply things to help clients rather than listen to profs prattle on about theory.

[namefromplace]

Sounds like you just want someone to tell you that you can switch to white collar work at your firm. It's definitely possible--try to network with the white collar group during your SA and if it goes well, ask if you can switch. No idea what your firm is, but summer associate programs are often more practice area-fluid than they may initially appear. 3L recruiting is always rough and the market right now is particularly rough, but it's also a possibility.

Your best, safest bet would be to clerk. It would make recruiting for a firm with a better white collar group much easier, and even if you go back to the same firm, it's easy to switch practice groups when you come back from clerking. It's also a great career advantage in general, especially if you want to be an AUSA.

But you don't seem to want to clerk if it means taking you away from New York. I'll add my voice to the people who have said that clerking is well worth a year in your twenties, even if it means having to live in a city where you otherwise wouldn't. Think about it like this: would you rather live in, say, Denver for a year and then have a career doing work you like in New York, or spend your entire career in New York doing work you don't care for? Of course, clerking doesn't guarantee the former, and not clerking doesn't guarantee the latter, but it can tip the scales significantly, particularly for someone looking to pivot.

Plus, there's plenty of clerkships within a couple hours of NYC that are less competitive than SDNY but worthwhile (D. Del., EDPA, D. NJ, etc.). If you're competitive (which, given your self-described "2LOL," you may not be), you might as well apply.

[Anonymous User]

Sounds like you just want someone to tell you that you can switch to white collar work at your firm. It's definitely possible--try to network with the white collar group during your SA and if it goes well, ask if you can switch. No idea what your firm is, but summer associate programs are often more practice area-fluid than they may initially appear. 3L recruiting is always rough and the market right now is particularly rough, but it's also a possibility.

Frankly I'd like to leave my firm if possible. I picked it for the specific group I'm currently going to and am not really interested in their other focus areas, especially since they're very corp-dominant and their culture is well-known to be questionable. I liked Cleary but turned them down, something I'm now kicking myself for. From nosing around a little bit, it sounds like while my firm is good for GCL they do little-to-no WC in NYC (though there's some in other markets).

But you don't seem to want to clerk if it means taking you away from New York. I'll add my voice to the people who have said that clerking is well worth a year in your twenties, even if it means having to live in a city where you otherwise wouldn't. Think about it like this: would you rather live in, say, Denver for a year and then have a career doing work you like in New York, or spend your entire career in New York doing work you don't care for?

I've done this for multiple years between ug and law school (and including law school, where I chased prestige instead of going to the City). I've always put off NYC for "just one or two more years" and I don't have much of my 20s left--in fact, if I were to clerk I'd be 29 by the time I started. I'm not willing to wait anymore.

If there's no chance to do this without clerking/leaving NYC I'd rather just stick it out. Who knows, I might like my current plan after all, or just decide fuck it and do what my tech friends keep telling me to do and launch a startup. But goddamn any future 1Ls reading this try and get a sense of what you actually want to do.

[Anonymous User]

Sounds like you just want someone to tell you that you can switch to white collar work at your firm. It's definitely possible--try to network with the white collar group during your SA and if it goes well, ask if you can switch. No idea what your firm is, but summer associate programs are often more practice area-fluid than they may initially appear. 3L recruiting is always rough and the market right now is particularly rough, but it's also a possibility.

Frankly I'd like to leave my firm if possible. I picked it for the specific group I'm currently going to and am not really interested in their other focus areas, especially since they're very corp-dominant and their culture is well-known to be questionable. I liked Cleary but turned them down, something I'm now kicking myself for. From nosing around a little bit, it sounds like while my firm is good for GCL they do little-to-no WC in NYC (though there's some in other markets).

But you don't seem to want to clerk if it means taking you away from New York. I'll add my voice to the people who have said that clerking is well worth a year in your twenties, even if it means having to live in a city where you otherwise wouldn't. Think about it like this: would you rather live in, say, Denver for a year and then have a career doing work you like in New York, or spend your entire career in New York doing work you don't care for?

I've done this for multiple years between ug and law school (and including law school, where I chased prestige instead of going to the City). I've always put off NYC for "just one or two more years" and I don't have much of my 20s left--in fact, if I were to clerk I'd be 29 by the time I started. I'm not willing to wait anymore.

If there's no chance to do this without clerking/leaving NYC I'd rather just stick it out. Who knows, I might like my current plan after all, or just decide fuck it and do what my tech friends keep telling me to do and launch a startup. But goddamn any future 1Ls reading this try and get a sense of what you actually want to do.

You started the thread saying you're not committed to NYC so people have given you good answers to "what's the best play" accordingly. No problem to be committed to nyc after all but that changes things. You gotta do you, so glad you're figuring out what you want.

[Anonymous User]

You started the thread saying you're not committed to NYC so people have given you good answers to "what's the best play" accordingly. No problem to be committed to nyc after all but that changes things. You gotta do you, so glad you're figuring out what you want.

Ha, fair. I was a few drinks in when I posted that, so very much at max “woe is me”. If it shifts the calculus, could do Chicago (and maybe SF) as well.

[Anonymous User]

Beyond getting into a biglaw white-collar group, if your goal is to be an E/SDNY AUSA like you say, there’s no alternative to becoming a litigation gunner. That means caring about your grades, doing journal board, taking Fed Courts, interning at a USAO, and quite possibly moving to a boutique. And most important of all, clerking, which without rockstar credentials means applying everywhere. These jobs are hard to get because lots of people are willing to jump through lots of hoops to get them.

Also if you don’t have the credentials for NYC-area clerkships saying “oh I’m fine slumming it in NDIL or NDCA as well” doesn’t really help you. Those are not substantially easier to crack than SDNY—they’re probably #3 and #4 in the country after SDNY and DDC.

[Anonymous User]

Beyond getting into a biglaw white-collar group, if your goal is to be an E/SDNY AUSA like you say, there’s no alternative to becoming a litigation gunner. That means caring about your grades, doing journal board, taking Fed Courts, interning at a USAO, and quite possibly moving to a boutique. And most important of all, clerking, which without rockstar credentials means applying everywhere. These jobs are hard to get because lots of people are willing to jump through lots of hoops to get them.

I suppose the good news here is that I took none of the big litigation classes for 2L, so if I work my ass off 3L there’s a play to be made? Fuck I hate reading for class but if that’s the path that’s the path.

As for credentials I’m actually somewhat unsure here. I have a sense of what creds are needed for the big CoAs/feeders and I’m not at that level, but people here don’t really talk about district clerkships so I’m more unsure how to ballpark my shot. I’m going with outside chance for given what I know of people, but I also strongly doubt I could get a compelling application together for this cycle so we’re talking at earliest a 2025-2026 clerkship.