Most Preftigious Public Defender Offices Forum

[MaFooFan]

There's a lot of good info out there about state PD offices, but it's hard to get a sense of how PD offices stack up against each other. In no particular order, my sense of the so-called 'national' PD offices are:

The Bronx Defenders (and the public/private NY offices found in the NYU handbook)
New Orleans
Miami
Colorado (St. wide)
NJ (St. wide)
San Diego
Nashville

Who else am I missing? How do these offices position one for Fed PD work or white collar crim defense? Would the average appellate office in a major city trump the above offices for those purposes? Is there an office that stands out in any of the following categories: long-term career options, training/mentorship, work quality, and work/life balance?

[Anonymous User]

Probably PDS (DC) should top this list.

Please remember that prestigious does not mean well paid, well run, or conducive to happiness.

[Anonymous User]

DC

[Anonymous User]

Other than PDS, is there any office that really focuses on training new attys?

[Anonymous User]

I think many of these are in line with what I thought - I'm an AFPD. I'm not sure how well the offices are run though. I think it a lot of high crime cities you'll see some pretty interesting cases as well - Chi, STL, Memphis, NOLA, Bmore.
A lot of the PD offices don't pay well and don't train that well either.
AFPDs have the same problem but better pay, hah.
I'd say San Diego does the best training. Idk if any is more prestigious than another but maybe SD or DC.

[Anonymous User]

I think many of these are in line with what I thought - I'm an AFPD. I'm not sure how well the offices are run though. I think it a lot of high crime cities you'll see some pretty interesting cases as well - Chi, STL, Memphis, NOLA, Bmore.
A lot of the PD offices don't pay well and don't train that well either.
AFPDs have the same problem but better pay, hah.
I'd say San Diego does the best training. Idk if any is more prestigious than another but maybe SD or DC.

San Diego FPD/community defender, or like the state/county PD?

[Anonymous User]

What would prestigious mean in this context? Easy to move to another PD job? Easy to move to a good crim defense firm?

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Prestigious to me means:
1) Ease of moving into an FPD office from a state PD office. I heard this can take as little as 5-10 years from the right office.
2) Exit options in relative terms to private crim. defense/other stuff. I heard it's rough going no matter what the office is, but some are better than others.

I'm mostly curious, and understand the PD route isn't a great springboard.

Also, with the idea that prestige does not equate with good, what is everybody's take on best place to work? For those of you who are PDs, what offices would you target knowing everything you know now.

[Anonymous User]

This is the AFPD from above. The SD FPD office is the best training ground for AFPDs from what I understand.

[Anonymous User]

This is the AFPD from above. The SD FPD office is the best training ground for AFPDs from what I understand.

I spoke with some PDs who tried to land SD FPD out of school, but they got dinged. What’s your impression of the chances of landing that office from T20 with good grades? What would you focus on?

[Anonymous User]

There's a lot of good info out there about state PD offices, but it's hard to get a sense of how PD offices stack up against each other. In no particular order, my sense of the so-called 'national' PD offices are:

The Bronx Defenders (and the public/private NY offices found in the NYU handbook)
New Orleans
Miami
Colorado (St. wide)
NJ (St. wide)
San Diego
Nashville

Who else am I missing? How do these offices position one for Fed PD work or white collar crim defense? Would the average appellate office in a major city trump the above offices for those purposes? Is there an office that stands out in any of the following categories: long-term career options, training/mentorship, work quality, and work/life balance?

Since when is the Nashville office "national"? They always give very meh vibes to me.

[Anonymous User]

This is the AFPD from above. The SD FPD office is the best training ground for AFPDs from what I understand.

I spoke with some PDs who tried to land SD FPD out of school, but they got dinged. What’s your impression of the chances of landing that office from T20 with good grades? What would you focus on?

THe PD route to AFPD is pretty tried and true for most offices. SD actually does more out of law school hiring compared with our sister offices though. They take a good number of recent grads, and even more clerks. SD likes to train their folks how they like to, at least that's what I've heard. They also take a good amount of research and writing attorneys (this is the usual first step prior to becoming an AFPD at a lot of offices too). I think your school and grades will be fine but just show your interest in criminal defense/legal aid.

[Anonymous User]

The idea of more or less prestigious public defender's offices has always struck me as kind of ridiculous, and weird reflection of the status obsession of the rest of this profession in a kind of work that should operate much differently. I'm a PD. I went to a T14, interned at a fed PD office after 1L, interned for one of the "prestigious" public defender's offices after 2L, then clerked on a federal court, and now work at what I suppose you would call a non-prestigious public defender's office in my home city. My thoughts are:

(1) If you're interested in federal work long-term, being at one of the offices that recruit nationally probably won't be much of a benefit, and could be a detriment because at least some of those offices don't go to trial that often, and the most important things in AFPD hiring are research/writing ability and trial experience. I remember talking to an attorney at BxD during the recruitment process who had worked there for several years and never had a jury trial! I'd also note that FPD hiring can be regional / pull from nearby offices, and there is going to be more competition near those prestigious offices.

(2) You should absolutely look for an office where you think you'll be trained well and have the resources to develop your craft. But knowing a lot of PDs and law school classmates who became PDs in different places, there is very little correlation between the "prestige" of an office and the quality of the training offered.

(3) There also doesn't seem to be much correlation between how nationally offices recruit and how well they pay, PDS excluded. The NYC offices pay terribly.

(4) I generally like the attorneys at my office much more than I liked the attorneys at the prestigious PD office I interned at, which was kind of toxic. I also generally think that the attorneys in my current office are better attorneys, with the possible exception being in motions practice. It also really rubbed me the wrong way that the attorneys in the prestigious office I interned at (you might be able to tell which one by this point lol) clearly and expressly saw themselves as better than other PDs, and they just weren't.

Obviously YMMV between the offices that recruit nationally, and some of them I've heard really good things about (Miami, Colorado, New Hampshire), but please don't feel like you need to end up at one of them or that your experience as a PD will be fundamentally different at one of them. Just try to go where you want to live, can make a decent living, have adequate support, and have chill colleagues.

[Anonymous User]

I don’t know about prestige, but Cook County pays pretty well and is generally well-resourced

[Anonymous User]

I’d also like to note that the more prestigious offices tend to have much worse relationships with the USAO. That back and forth can be really draining, so it’s certainly something to consider.

[Anonymous User]

Prestige is something that matters almost exclusively to people who haven't actually operated in the real world yet. I get it that on paper it seems like a super convenient way to over-simplify the universe when it comes to making decisions about what to do with your career. That still doesn't mean that prestige matters.

[Anonymous User]

I’d also like to note that the more prestigious offices tend to have much worse relationships with the USAO. That back and forth can be really draining, so it’s certainly something to consider.

Yes, it was interesting to me to see people talk about SDFD being well-respected and a great place to train. I don’t dispute that, but the perspective I hear from people I know at the USAO in San Diego is that it’s an extremely contentious office that fights the USAO on everything and is exhausting to deal with.

To be clear, I’m not a defense attorney and am not at all saying the SD office is doing anything wrong. Just confirming that the relationship between the two seems way more fraught, at least from the USAO perspective, than in other jdxs where I and others I know have worked (and the FPD is arguably less “prestigious,” although I agree that it’s kind of a pointless measure in this context).

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thank you everybody for the helpful discussion.

I understand prestigious PD is a bit of an oxymoron. However, I assumed it would help in landing something with FPD or boutique crim. defense down the road. When I look up AFPDs, a good number are t14 grads with prestigious-for-PD, or just prestigious (some biglaw mixed in), resumes.

I suppose my real question is: if you're gunning for a FPD spot as a 1L from t20, what's the optimal game plan? How hard would you concentrate on grades, improving Spanish skills (perhaps taking classes?), demonstrating interest/commitment, and networking? While I understand there's no clear cut path to becoming a FPD, I'm asking if somebody can take a machete and clear some of the brush.

[Anonymous User]

I'll bite. I'm the AFPD from above.

I may have stated this elsewhere in a different thread, but a number of my colleagues were PDs in our local office. There's about 20 of us and I think between 12-14 or so were PDs at our local shop or PDs and then a crim defense attorney (bucket A). 5 of us were either clerk and then to LRW Attorney (or state pd) to AFPD or clerk and then BL and then AFPD (bucket b). 1 was a a prosecutor and then a private attorney.

Bucket b folks have credentials like yours, generally. They were either top of the class at local state U or went to a T20 type school. Bucket a is the tried and true.

I'd clerk and learn spanish, if I were you. If you can't clerk, go straight to the PDs office. The reason I say learn spanish is cause we just tend to have more openings in the southwest like AZ/NM/TX from what I've seen. I also think the west in general looks for spanish proficiency as does FL. I'd just keep showing your interest. Intern at an FPD shop and a PD place. Also, I'll just say my judge helped me get the job. I was in regional BL for a year and called up my judge and told him I really was tired of it. He recommended I speak with some folks and the rest kinda just happened, but I got very lucky between openings and that I had no experience with FPDs really at that point (actually only interned while in law school with the ADAs and PDs, never the USAO or FPD). I'd suggest not doing that, hah.
If you can clerk, clerk. Intern at PD and FPD shops. Try and land an LRW attorney gig with the FPDs (or just straight up AFPD), if that doesn't work go straight to the PDs- preference is usually given to local folks trying to head on up but not always, especially at places like SD.

[Anonymous User]

I agree about speaking Spanish - I know the southwestern border offices require it. Even where I am now, far far from the southwest, we get a lot of Spanish speaking defendants and it’s a huge help to be able to go visit a Spanish-speaking client without having to book an interpreter every time. I’m sure there are places this is less true and where other languages are also important but to generalize, get your Spanish truly functional. Depending what level you’re at now, something in the community using Spanish might be more helpful than additional courses (though some law schools have a “Spanish for lawyers” course which would be great).

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I really appreciate the replies. Thanks a lot guys.

I plan on necroing this thread after I intern in a PD office this summer, but any other insight is welcome in the meantime.

[2013]

PDS has a lot of alum working in great federal government jobs. It’s also extremely difficult to get a job there.

[CanadianWolf]

OP here. I really appreciate the replies. Thanks a lot guys.

I plan on necroing this thread after I intern in a PD office this summer, but any other insight is welcome in the meantime.

Historically, the statewide system for Colorado has been well funded. But, if your goal is to become a federal Public Defender, 5 or more years as a PD at the state level in a major US city should be adequate.