Kind of a weird question, but does anyone in lit ever feel burnout from just the constant contentiousness of everything? I mean, I get that’s our job, but it’s completely exhausting sometimes.
I’m a midlevel with good hours and reviews, but truly I wonder if my mental health can actually maintain this lifestyle past my 30s. Anyone else ever stop and reflect on how other jobs are just, like, jobs?
Lit Contentiousness Forum
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Lacepiece23
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Re: Lit Contentiousness
I deal with biglaw partners everyday as a plaintiffs employment lawyer. I hate the day to day pettiness and passive aggressiveness. I like other stuff like brief writing, trials, and deps.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:42 pmKind of a weird question, but does anyone in lit ever feel burnout from just the constant contentiousness of everything? I mean, I get that’s our job, but it’s completely exhausting sometimes.
I’m a midlevel with good hours and reviews, but truly I wonder if my mental health can actually maintain this lifestyle past my 30s. Anyone else ever stop and reflect on how other jobs are just, like, jobs?
My wife on the other hand loves the day to day tit for tat with OC. She gave me some great advice, which has helped my anxiety and helped me cope.
Don’t take it personally. Think of every email that’s nasty, unpleasant, etc. as what buttons are you pushing. Know that you’re winning when this happens. Separate the nastiness from feelings about you.
That’s all I got, but it’s helped me immensely since she broke it down like that.
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Anonymous User
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Re: Lit Contentiousness
I don't mind this stuff and I even get excited/fired up by it, but it's definitely not good for me because I take it all too personally and let my emotions about work tiffs spill over into my home life.
So with that in mind, the thing that has helped me cope the most is to just play nice and fair and ignore everything else, which is very much part of the culture at my firm. Sure, we get steamrolled every once in a while because the other side wants to play hardball and shout, but that really only happens with things that don't matter in the long run. See, people resort to playing games (pushing buttons?) when they don't have a leg to stand on. But a good litigator knows when to save their resources/chits/credibility for a more important battle. Having colleagues that thought about disputes this way really helped me to see the forest through the trees as an associate. When you do fight back it's from a position of strength rather than as an alternative to a good argument, and you tend to get what you want from the other side because they know you're not bullshitting. So for all but the most important stuff, I try to dissociate, play it nice, and laugh about how opposing counsel is getting worked up about something that is just not important at all.
So with that in mind, the thing that has helped me cope the most is to just play nice and fair and ignore everything else, which is very much part of the culture at my firm. Sure, we get steamrolled every once in a while because the other side wants to play hardball and shout, but that really only happens with things that don't matter in the long run. See, people resort to playing games (pushing buttons?) when they don't have a leg to stand on. But a good litigator knows when to save their resources/chits/credibility for a more important battle. Having colleagues that thought about disputes this way really helped me to see the forest through the trees as an associate. When you do fight back it's from a position of strength rather than as an alternative to a good argument, and you tend to get what you want from the other side because they know you're not bullshitting. So for all but the most important stuff, I try to dissociate, play it nice, and laugh about how opposing counsel is getting worked up about something that is just not important at all.
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Lacepiece23
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Re: Lit Contentiousness
Also good advice.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:04 amI don't mind this stuff and I even get excited/fired up by it, but it's definitely not good for me because I take it all too personally and let my emotions about work tiffs spill over into my home life.
So with that in mind, the thing that has helped me cope the most is to just play nice and fair and ignore everything else, which is very much part of the culture at my firm. Sure, we get steamrolled every once in a while because the other side wants to play hardball and shout, but that really only happens with things that don't matter in the long run. See, people resort to playing games (pushing buttons?) when they don't have a leg to stand on. But a good litigator knows when to save their resources/chits/credibility for a more important battle. Having colleagues that thought about disputes this way really helped me to see the forest through the trees as an associate. When you do fight back it's from a position of strength rather than as an alternative to a good argument, and you tend to get what you want from the other side because they know you're not bullshitting. So for all but the most important stuff, I try to dissociate, play it nice, and laugh about how opposing counsel is getting worked up about something that is just not important at all.
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Anonymous User
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Re: Lit Contentiousness
20+ year trial lawyer here, biglaw and government over the years. I'm in a position now where I could go for a judgeship if I wanted to, or supervisory positions, or enter politics, but I love the trial litigation too much.
Your question is actually excellent, and more of us need to talk about it in our profession. I have many personal friends, including excellent litigators, who just could not continue handling the personal stress of litigation. Depositions can be stressful. Dealing with just one nasty opposing counsel can be stressful. If you are particularly sensitive to the stress from this level of conflict, then I do think it is fair to simply recognize it and leave. There is no judging here. Dealing with assholes on the other side takes it toll. It shouldn't be a price we pay, but it IS a price we pay.
How have I dealt with it myself? For one, I am a super nice guy. I will absolutely murder you on the stand under cross examination, and obliterate your stupid arguments in front of the jury. So don't get me wrong. But why do I need to fight you about absolutely anything unless we are actually in front of that jury, which is 2% of our cases approximately once per year if I'm lucky? I will grant you extensions. I will call you to give you a tip about our judge to avoid you getting yelled at. I will refuse to bullshit you about anything. I go out of my way to be professional, courteous, polite, and friendly. For all but the extreme level psychopath litigators out there, this works.
The psychopaths do drain you. But they also are more rare than you think. If you have a really bad one, this too shall pass. When the case is over, you won't see another one for a long time.
Your question is actually excellent, and more of us need to talk about it in our profession. I have many personal friends, including excellent litigators, who just could not continue handling the personal stress of litigation. Depositions can be stressful. Dealing with just one nasty opposing counsel can be stressful. If you are particularly sensitive to the stress from this level of conflict, then I do think it is fair to simply recognize it and leave. There is no judging here. Dealing with assholes on the other side takes it toll. It shouldn't be a price we pay, but it IS a price we pay.
How have I dealt with it myself? For one, I am a super nice guy. I will absolutely murder you on the stand under cross examination, and obliterate your stupid arguments in front of the jury. So don't get me wrong. But why do I need to fight you about absolutely anything unless we are actually in front of that jury, which is 2% of our cases approximately once per year if I'm lucky? I will grant you extensions. I will call you to give you a tip about our judge to avoid you getting yelled at. I will refuse to bullshit you about anything. I go out of my way to be professional, courteous, polite, and friendly. For all but the extreme level psychopath litigators out there, this works.
The psychopaths do drain you. But they also are more rare than you think. If you have a really bad one, this too shall pass. When the case is over, you won't see another one for a long time.
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Anonymous User
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Re: Lit Contentiousness
Anyone dealing with this issue internally as well, not just with opposing counsel?
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lavarman84
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Re: Lit Contentiousness
I largely face off against government attorneys, so it's not too bad. Most of them are pretty chill about things. And I'm pretty chill about things. So it works. I'm a straight shooter and try to treat opposing counsel respectfully. I've run across a jerk every now and then, and it's annoying. But I've found that the jerks often are compensating for something. The best attorneys I've faced went about things in a professional, courteous manner.
If there's something that will burn me out, it's the never-ending stream of good people who need help. I never feel like I'm doing enough.
If there's something that will burn me out, it's the never-ending stream of good people who need help. I never feel like I'm doing enough.
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Anonymous User
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Re: Lit Contentiousness
The 20+ lawyer here, and yes, some of the worst psychopaths I've dealt with were the ones I had to report to. If you're dealing with a lot of stress because of the people or a person you work with, that is a sign that you and the employer need to part ways. Start making exit plans.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:49 pmAnyone dealing with this issue internally as well, not just with opposing counsel?
