ADA or PD for eventual private crim defense career Forum

[Anonymous User]

Which one is better preparation for eventually being a private practice criminal defense attorney? I would also like to be an AFPD eventually, but I don't see any way I will get anything like that straight out of law school. I worry that being an assistant prosecutor will be a black mark on my record if I apply for AFPD positions down the road.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, it probably will. I've seen AFPD offices range in what you might call their zealousness (like some will fight the USAO on absolutely everything just on principle, others are more strategic and pick their battles), but I've never seen any former prosecutors working in any AFPD offices. Not saying it's completely impossible, just that I think it's pretty uncommon.

I have seen prosecutors' offices hire former PDs, though, so that way round is fine. That said, I don't know of anyone who's gone AFPD --> prosecutor's office (rather than state PD to prosecutor). I think in part that's self-selection - someone who advances in public defense to the AFPD probably has probably determined by that point that they absolutely don't want to prosecute.

I think you can market yourself for private criminal defense out of either background - if you start as a PD you can obviously sell yourself as having great experience in criminal defense, but it's also pretty successful to be a former prosecutor and sell yourself as really knowing how the sausage gets made. In terms of actual training, I think either will effectively prepare you to do criminal defense. I would think the biggest issue in going from prosecution to private criminal defense would be lack of experience in dealing with clients, but there are a lot of former prosecutor criminal defense attorney so I don't think it's a huge obstacle.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, it probably will. I've seen AFPD offices range in what you might call their zealousness (like some will fight the USAO on absolutely everything just on principle, others are more strategic and pick their battles), but I've never seen any former prosecutors working in any AFPD offices. Not saying it's completely impossible, just that I think it's pretty uncommon.

I have seen prosecutors' offices hire former PDs, though, so that way round is fine. That said, I don't know of anyone who's gone AFPD --> prosecutor's office (rather than state PD to prosecutor). I think in part that's self-selection - someone who advances in public defense to the AFPD probably has probably determined by that point that they absolutely don't want to prosecute.

I think you can market yourself for private criminal defense out of either background - if you start as a PD you can obviously sell yourself as having great experience in criminal defense, but it's also pretty successful to be a former prosecutor and sell yourself as really knowing how the sausage gets made. In terms of actual training, I think either will effectively prepare you to do criminal defense. I would think the biggest issue in going from prosecution to private criminal defense would be lack of experience in dealing with clients, but there are a lot of former prosecutor criminal defense attorney so I don't think it's a huge obstacle.

That's what I suspected. It seems I'll probably have to forget about being an FPD (which, to me, seems kind of like a dream gig) if I take a prosecutor job.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 20+ year lawyer and am acquainted with AFPDs who were former prosecutors. I've also been personally invited to interview with the FPD, back when I was a state prosecutor who had a very good relationship with the criminal defense bar. So I would take over-generalizations and black-and-white characterizations with a grain of salt. Getting prosecution experience gives you excellent insight into how to be a better public defender. Having both PD and prosecution experience just makes you a better lawyer in general.

If I was emperor I would force everyone in criminal law to go back and forth constantly as is done in other countries, so that the culture of irrational hatred of the other side (which is not consistent with representing your clients or the State effectively) could finally die. But that's a pipe dream and I digress.

[Anonymous User]

There’s a lot going on here but there’s a few things I think are important to consider:
1. If you want AFPD, I do think that being a prosecutor is going to be a black mark. There could be some offices where this is not true, but if you’re in a major city I think the relationships between FPD and USAO are very contentious.
2. If you go the DA route, I think you would be very well served if you eventually switch to private defense. Even more so if you’re working in the same city or area where you were a DA. The one caveat, that was mentioned by a previous poster, is dealing with clients. As a DA your client is the government. You talk to victims but at the end of the day you listen to their input but you are NOT required to agree with them or do what they want. As defense attorney, this relationship is completely different. PDs have to deal with a client who simply will not listen to your advice.
3. One other thing I will say is although I’m sure in certain state courts or even federal districts it wouldn’t be a black mark to go from AFPD/PD to AUSA/DA, I don’t think that’s true everywhere. If you work in a major city, where there is a contentious relationship between the two, I don’t think you could get hired as a DA/AUSA. In practice, it seems like some PDs work especially hard to paint DA/USAO offices as corrupt (I’m not saying this is wrong, especially if it serves the client). But, if a PD office has that reputation, I have no doubt it may affect hiring if someone eventually wants to go to a prosecutor’s office. As another person noted, it’s probably unlikely to make that switch but I do know at few people who have (unsuccessfully) tried to go from PD at the state level to AUSA.

[CanadianWolf]

I'm a 20+ year lawyer and am acquainted with AFPDs who were former prosecutors. I've also been personally invited to interview with the FPD, back when I was a state prosecutor who had a very good relationship with the criminal defense bar. So I would take over-generalizations and black-and-white characterizations with a grain of salt. Getting prosecution experience gives you excellent insight into how to be a better public defender. Having both PD and prosecution experience just makes you a better lawyer in general.

If I was emperor I would force everyone in criminal law to go back and forth constantly as is done in other countries, so that the culture of irrational hatred of the other side (which is not consistent with representing your clients or the State effectively) could finally die. But that's a pipe dream and I digress.

Take the first paragraph of the above quoted post with an enormous grain of salt.

[CanadianWolf]

Additionally, since many defendants are repeat clients, there would be conflict of interest concerns--especially in smaller metro areas.

Before accepting the accuracy of anyone who claims that prosecutors have become AFPDs, I would want specifics about individuals who have made this move & the jurisdictions/locations involved.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 20+ year lawyer and am acquainted with AFPDs who were former prosecutors. I've also been personally invited to interview with the FPD, back when I was a state prosecutor who had a very good relationship with the criminal defense bar. So I would take over-generalizations and black-and-white characterizations with a grain of salt. Getting prosecution experience gives you excellent insight into how to be a better public defender. Having both PD and prosecution experience just makes you a better lawyer in general.

If I was emperor I would force everyone in criminal law to go back and forth constantly as is done in other countries, so that the culture of irrational hatred of the other side (which is not consistent with representing your clients or the State effectively) could finally die. But that's a pipe dream and I digress.

I'm the second poster in this thread. I agree that knowing both sides is incredibly valuable and I, personally, would hire a former prosecutor who made a good case for wanting to do criminal defense, but am not in that position. It's good to know that it can happen. I'm just saying that after 10 years in criminal law I hadn't seen any AFPDs who were formerly prosecutors. So while as I already said, I'm sure it's not impossible, I still don't think it's common. I do agree that the system would benefit from each doing the other side, and I tend to think of prosecutors/PDs as complementary roles in the same system, rather than mortal enemies, but I know that many people don't feel that way. (My take probably also gives away my background, of course.)

Re: AFPD --> local USAO, I agree this is probably less likely given the sort of personal experience of being adversaries on specific cases. It's hard to imagine the USAOs I'm familiar with hiring any of the local AFPDs, even though in the places I know best, the relationship between the two isn't as contentious as it can be elsewhere. In part that's because I can't imagine any of the AFPDs even applying for the job, though. What I have seen more of is local PDs going to the USAO (sometimes with a stop in local prosecution, but not always). But I'm sure this does vary by office. I suspect some difficulty in going from local PD to USAO isn't just being on the defense side, but arises from the difficulty of getting the job at all (some USAOs are going to favor biglaw alums over any state experience, PD hiring is often less grade/school conscious, that kind of thing). I also sort of suspect if an AFPD moved to another legal market, they might have better success making the switch to a USAO they haven't personally opposed, but that's pure speculation.

(Last point about conflicts - I do know someone in a small market who went to the USAO after stints in both local prosecution and defense, and they did get conflicted out of cases all the time. It didn't pose a real problem given some of the parameters of the hire, but it was definitely a thing.)

[Anonymous User]

I'm an AFPD. Would prefer not to out myself on here- I am in a Southern market - think Birmingham, New Orleans, Memphis, Knoxville type place.

I think going to be a private crim defense attorney it really doesn't matter, ADA and PD will both prep you and I'd just get a feel for each office in your market that you want to do this in. If you plan on staying in your market, it may actually be better to be an ADA first due to the relationships you make with the office, but I do agree with the others insofar as you will lack the xp dealing with clients.

As far as becoming an AFPD- it is a dream gig, it is awesome and very rewarding. I'd say there are two common paths to becoming an AFPD, the most common is to be a PD for 5-10 years and do it well. Out of the 20ish attorneys in my office, I think 11 or 12 were PDs before coming over (or were PDs and then private defense and then jumped over). The other path is clerking/BL. 2 jumped straight over post clerking. 3 of us were in BL (2 clerked) and then jumped over. 1 person in my office was a state prosecutor previously. It is possible to be an ADA and then jump over (however, it is very unlikely- and I'd just assume about 3/4 of the AFPDs you'll meet will be zealots for the cause, and certainly the interviewers will most likely be). I think there's more luck for people who went BL or clerkship to AUSA roles and then jump over to AFPD roles after a year or so and this is *more common, albeit, still not common, but I've seen it done in sister offices and we had one here at ours previously. I think it's okay to be a prosecutor for a year and make the jump, but you've gotta do it quickly and your reason for jumping needs to be something along the lines of standing up for the little guy/govt is bad etc.
Relations with AUSAs are very office and person specific. There are attorneys in my office who fight on everything and do not get along well with the AUSAs and some who do. I've got 1 AUSA that I buttheads with on a regular basis, but the rest I get along fine with and try to plan out my moves for my client.

Sorry, this may have been a long post, but thought I'd at least throw in my 2 cent.

[Anonymous User]

If I got no court experience in law school, meaning no moot court, trial team, trial advocacy, anything, and am generally kind of introverted, would I be best off starting in some rural office to get experience and potentially embarrass myself a ton before becoming an ADA/PD in the city in which I want to actually work?

[Anonymous User]

If I got no court experience in law school, meaning no moot court, trial team, trial advocacy, anything, and am generally kind of introverted, would I be best off starting in some rural office to get experience and potentially embarrass myself a ton before becoming an ADA/PD in the city in which I want to actually work?

AFPD here again- Nope, won't matter. I'd network to where you want to go now. They'll train you. And some cities actually give you a ton of xp compared to rural areas. Again, just gotta know your market and the office you're trying to join.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 20+ year lawyer and am acquainted with AFPDs who were former prosecutors. I've also been personally invited to interview with the FPD, back when I was a state prosecutor who had a very good relationship with the criminal defense bar. So I would take over-generalizations and black-and-white characterizations with a grain of salt. Getting prosecution experience gives you excellent insight into how to be a better public defender. Having both PD and prosecution experience just makes you a better lawyer in general.

If I was emperor I would force everyone in criminal law to go back and forth constantly as is done in other countries, so that the culture of irrational hatred of the other side (which is not consistent with representing your clients or the State effectively) could finally die. But that's a pipe dream and I digress.

Take the first paragraph of the above quoted post with an enormous grain of salt.

Take the above statement with an enormous grain of salt, given that the only actual AFPD on this thread made no suggestions that being a former prosecutor will blacklist you from the FPD's office.

It sounds like this blacklist mythology is something that might legitimately exist in the worlds of 0-5 year lawyers with very little experience. Yes, it's stupid to think that you will go from an ADA to AFPD as a young lawyer. It's not going to happen. As for everyone else, over the long run, if you are a good lawyer who acts ethically, develops good relationships with opposing counsel, and treats people around you well, yes, you can be a prosecutor in your younger days and eventually join the FPD--or the U.S. District Court, or the 9th Circuit, or whatever you like. These things are not impossible, if you behave yourself well and take your job seriously.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 20+ year lawyer and am acquainted with AFPDs who were former prosecutors. I've also been personally invited to interview with the FPD, back when I was a state prosecutor who had a very good relationship with the criminal defense bar. So I would take over-generalizations and black-and-white characterizations with a grain of salt. Getting prosecution experience gives you excellent insight into how to be a better public defender. Having both PD and prosecution experience just makes you a better lawyer in general.

If I was emperor I would force everyone in criminal law to go back and forth constantly as is done in other countries, so that the culture of irrational hatred of the other side (which is not consistent with representing your clients or the State effectively) could finally die. But that's a pipe dream and I digress.

Take the first paragraph of the above quoted post with an enormous grain of salt.

Take the above statement with an enormous grain of salt, given that the only actual AFPD on this thread made no suggestions that being a former prosecutor will blacklist you from the FPD's office.

It sounds like this blacklist mythology is something that might legitimately exist in the worlds of 0-5 year lawyers with very little experience. Yes, it's stupid to think that you will go from an ADA to AFPD as a young lawyer. It's not going to happen. As for everyone else, over the long run, if you are a good lawyer who acts ethically, develops good relationships with opposing counsel, and treats people around you well, yes, you can be a prosecutor in your younger days and eventually join the FPD--or the U.S. District Court, or the 9th Circuit, or whatever you like. These things are not impossible, if you behave yourself well and take your job seriously.

But the only actual AFPD in the thread also said that being an ADA would make it very unlikely and that you would have to make the jump quickly.

I agree that careers are long and people can take circuitous paths and very little is impossible. I also agree that individual reputation is pretty crucial - you're not likely to make the jump from one side to the other if you have a reputation for being underhanded or pointlessly obstructive, not because you're on the other side of the v. (That said, a prosecutor may consider certain behavior underhanded/obstructive that a defense attorney wouldn't, and vice versa, so reputation isn't always objective.) But I'm not sure anyone's been quite as dogmatic as you're fighting against. Plus that's only so helpful for what sounds like a law student trying to figure out a general plan.

OP, if you want to be an AFPD, and you also want to aim for private criminal defense, why not just aim for PD --> AFPD --> private defense (or private defense --> AFPD) and skip prosecution altogether? While plenty of former prosecutors do go into private criminal defense, you absolutely don't have to get prosecutorial experience to succeed as a private criminal defense attorney. You also don't have to decide on one path at this point, either - if you start off as a PD and find that for whatever reason you really want to try prosecution, you'll be in a much better position to evaluate that in a specific market with actual experience behind you than in a vacuum now.

[Anonymous User]

OP, if you want to be an AFPD, and you also want to aim for private criminal defense, why not just aim for PD --> AFPD --> private defense (or private defense --> AFPD) and skip prosecution altogether? While plenty of former prosecutors do go into private criminal defense, you absolutely don't have to get prosecutorial experience to succeed as a private criminal defense attorney. You also don't have to decide on one path at this point, either - if you start off as a PD and find that for whatever reason you really want to try prosecution, you'll be in a much better position to evaluate that in a specific market with actual experience behind you than in a vacuum now.

I guess my top 2 outcomes would be to either be a FPD or own my own criminal defense firm. If I were to go the solo route, then it seems prosecutorial experience would make sense from a relationship perspective. If I were to set my sights on becoming an FPD, then doing state PD work first makes more sense. I've looked at and applied for some of the research & writing specialist gigs with FPD offices but have had no bites thus far. Hopefully that explains my dilemma/where some of the tension is coming from with this.

[Anonymous User]

OP, if you want to be an AFPD, and you also want to aim for private criminal defense, why not just aim for PD --> AFPD --> private defense (or private defense --> AFPD) and skip prosecution altogether? While plenty of former prosecutors do go into private criminal defense, you absolutely don't have to get prosecutorial experience to succeed as a private criminal defense attorney. You also don't have to decide on one path at this point, either - if you start off as a PD and find that for whatever reason you really want to try prosecution, you'll be in a much better position to evaluate that in a specific market with actual experience behind you than in a vacuum now.

I guess my top 2 outcomes would be to either be a FPD or own my own criminal defense firm. If I were to go the solo route, then it seems prosecutorial experience would make sense from a relationship perspective. If I were to set my sights on becoming an FPD, then doing state PD work first makes more sense. I've looked at and applied for some of the research & writing specialist gigs with FPD offices but have had no bites thus far. Hopefully that explains my dilemma/where some of the tension is coming from with this.

I guess given that your top 2 outcomes are both defense work, I’m a little confused by your interest in prosecution. If you want to be a criminal defense solo, you absolutely don’t have to be a prosecutor first. Plenty of people parlay exclusively criminal defense work into private criminal defense. And I’m a little confused about your reference to the relationship perspective - you develop plenty of relationships with prosecutors by consistently appearing opposite them as well as by working with them (you’re also not going to get better deals from prosecutors just because you worked with them). Don’t get me wrong, many people succeed by going from prosecution to private criminal defense, but that’s definitely not the only way to succeed.

So given that prosecution experience isn’t necessary for private criminal defense and might make it tougher to get to your other top choice, AFPD, I’m a little confused by your commitment to it. Of course if your concern is just getting a job at all and you’d rather be an ADA than do civil work (or be unemployed!), that’s a little different and totally understandable and ignore the rest of what I’ve said.

I think too some of this depends on your market, where you’re applying, your background and experience and connections and such (not asking you to explain any of those, just saying that they’re factors).

[CanadianWolf]

I'm a 20+ year lawyer and am acquainted with AFPDs who were former prosecutors. I've also been personally invited to interview with the FPD, back when I was a state prosecutor who had a very good relationship with the criminal defense bar. So I would take over-generalizations and black-and-white characterizations with a grain of salt. Getting prosecution experience gives you excellent insight into how to be a better public defender. Having both PD and prosecution experience just makes you a better lawyer in general.

If I was emperor I would force everyone in criminal law to go back and forth constantly as is done in other countries, so that the culture of irrational hatred of the other side (which is not consistent with representing your clients or the State effectively) could finally die. But that's a pipe dream and I digress.

Take the first paragraph of the above quoted post with an enormous grain of salt.

Take the above statement with an enormous grain of salt, given that the only actual AFPD on this thread made no suggestions that being a former prosecutor will blacklist you from the FPD's office.

It sounds like this blacklist mythology is something that might legitimately exist in the worlds of 0-5 year lawyers with very little experience. Yes, it's stupid to think that you will go from an ADA to AFPD as a young lawyer. It's not going to happen. As for everyone else, over the long run, if you are a good lawyer who acts ethically, develops good relationships with opposing counsel, and treats people around you well, yes, you can be a prosecutor in your younger days and eventually join the FPD--or the U.S. District Court, or the 9th Circuit, or whatever you like. These things are not impossible, if you behave yourself well and take your job seriously.

Please do not take the above poster's guess seriously.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 20+ year lawyer and am acquainted with AFPDs who were former prosecutors. I've also been personally invited to interview with the FPD, back when I was a state prosecutor who had a very good relationship with the criminal defense bar. So I would take over-generalizations and black-and-white characterizations with a grain of salt. Getting prosecution experience gives you excellent insight into how to be a better public defender. Having both PD and prosecution experience just makes you a better lawyer in general.

If I was emperor I would force everyone in criminal law to go back and forth constantly as is done in other countries, so that the culture of irrational hatred of the other side (which is not consistent with representing your clients or the State effectively) could finally die. But that's a pipe dream and I digress.

Take the first paragraph of the above quoted post with an enormous grain of salt.

Take the above statement with an enormous grain of salt, given that the only actual AFPD on this thread made no suggestions that being a former prosecutor will blacklist you from the FPD's office.

It sounds like this blacklist mythology is something that might legitimately exist in the worlds of 0-5 year lawyers with very little experience. Yes, it's stupid to think that you will go from an ADA to AFPD as a young lawyer. It's not going to happen. As for everyone else, over the long run, if you are a good lawyer who acts ethically, develops good relationships with opposing counsel, and treats people around you well, yes, you can be a prosecutor in your younger days and eventually join the FPD--or the U.S. District Court, or the 9th Circuit, or whatever you like. These things are not impossible, if you behave yourself well and take your job seriously.

Please do not take the above poster's guess seriously.

Well, the above poster has over two decades of experience. At the end of the day I think this is just the wrong place to ask the question, because you have a bunch of anonymous people with opinions, but you can't judge their credibility since they can't speak freely for fear of doxing themselves. Pick up the phone and talk to people in your actual city to get the real scoop on this. Some things are not smart topics to explore on anon forums.