Help me pick between firms/markets Forum
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting
Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous Posting
Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
-
- Posts: 432635
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Help me pick between firms/markets
Wrapping up a COA clerkship and need to make the decision to return to my prior firm in DC or go to a big law firm in a secondary market in the Maryland/Virginia/PA area (sorry for the vagueness, attempting to not out myself). I'll be coming in as a mid level associate. I'll refer to the regional firm as regional even though it has a national presence. The regional firm is the best in its respective market (think Baltimore, Richmond, Philadelphia) and pays Cravath scale salaries, it's also well regarded nationally and the city would be more convenient for me due to my partners career plans. Further, it's headquartered in the city where I would be working.
Going to the DC firm would likely mean living in the secondary city where the regional firm is located and living three days a week in DC at a condo I currently own but rent out while I'm clerking. DC firm is one of the top firms in DC (think Covington, Gibson, Wilmer, etc.) and has very strong regulatory and appellate practices. I have no desire to do appellate work and would prefer to practice commercial litigation or white collar. While I was there, it was difficult to get "real" litigation work. I was mainly staffed on appellate and white collar matters but that may have been because I was leaving to clerk. Long term, I'd like to do a stint as an AUSA or at an agency where I have the opportunity to do trial work (DOJ, SEC Enforcement, etc.) and then return to a firm.
I have little basis for this but assume my prospects of making partner are likely much better at the regional firm. The regional firm has stated they hire with the intent to promote to partner and associates I've spoken to have explained the expectations to make partner are made clear and it seems achievable. The DC firm is much more of a black box and I worry I lack the necessary credentials to make partner there. I'm not overqualified for the regional firm by any means as there are plenty of COA clerks (and a few SCOTUS clerks) and my law school is commensurate with the schools that most associates/partners went to. At the DC firm, the midlevel and senior litigation associates are overwhelmingly HYS grads and feeder/SCOTUS clerks.
My biggest concern is that going to the smaller firm will limit exit options more than a top DC firm would. I also worry that it would be difficult to return to a top firm in DC if I ever decide I'd like to move back. Hours and pay are comparable at both with slightly lower expectations at the regional firms but not by much. Any advice on the situation is greatly appreciated.
Going to the DC firm would likely mean living in the secondary city where the regional firm is located and living three days a week in DC at a condo I currently own but rent out while I'm clerking. DC firm is one of the top firms in DC (think Covington, Gibson, Wilmer, etc.) and has very strong regulatory and appellate practices. I have no desire to do appellate work and would prefer to practice commercial litigation or white collar. While I was there, it was difficult to get "real" litigation work. I was mainly staffed on appellate and white collar matters but that may have been because I was leaving to clerk. Long term, I'd like to do a stint as an AUSA or at an agency where I have the opportunity to do trial work (DOJ, SEC Enforcement, etc.) and then return to a firm.
I have little basis for this but assume my prospects of making partner are likely much better at the regional firm. The regional firm has stated they hire with the intent to promote to partner and associates I've spoken to have explained the expectations to make partner are made clear and it seems achievable. The DC firm is much more of a black box and I worry I lack the necessary credentials to make partner there. I'm not overqualified for the regional firm by any means as there are plenty of COA clerks (and a few SCOTUS clerks) and my law school is commensurate with the schools that most associates/partners went to. At the DC firm, the midlevel and senior litigation associates are overwhelmingly HYS grads and feeder/SCOTUS clerks.
My biggest concern is that going to the smaller firm will limit exit options more than a top DC firm would. I also worry that it would be difficult to return to a top firm in DC if I ever decide I'd like to move back. Hours and pay are comparable at both with slightly lower expectations at the regional firms but not by much. Any advice on the situation is greatly appreciated.
- existentialcrisis
- Posts: 717
- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:23 pm
Re: Help me pick between firms/markets
Being away from home 3 days/week + travel would be an east deal breaker for me.
- trebekismyhero
- Posts: 1095
- Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 5:26 pm
Re: Help me pick between firms/markets
Yeah, this seems like an easy call. If you were going to be a first year associate, it might be a closer call, but you are a mid-level and already have that elite DC firm on your resume. Go with the regional firm and avoid the hassle of commuting/living away from your partner.
-
- Posts: 432635
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Help me pick between firms/markets
OP Here. Agreed and I'm heavily leaning that way. Just worried I'll regret leaving a top firm when I attempt to make the transition into government.trebekismyhero wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:48 pmYeah, this seems like an easy call. If you were going to be a first year associate, it might be a closer call, but you are a mid-level and already have that elite DC firm on your resume. Go with the regional firm and avoid the hassle of commuting/living away from your partner.
-
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:38 pm
Re: Help me pick between firms/markets
Mid level who clerked and is at a firm like yours in DC. My take: go with the regional firm. Your finances will be better because you won’t be commuting; you will be with your partner; you’ll probably have better standing within the firm / better shot at partner if you want that; and most likely be happier. Life is too short, and especially if your firm wasn’t giving you work you were excited about, firm prestige isn’t worth sacrificing your happiness.
I think your worry about exit ops to govt is real though. It depends on the partners at the “regional firm.” I know that at my firm, our partners routinely offer to help us get govt jobs, send postings and leads around, etc. I haven’t bitten on one yet, but I definitely feel empowered if I want a govt stint by the firm and the partners’ connections. That being said, it’s exhausting to compete with scotus and other feeder clerks all the time for work, and the gunnery shit is just plain exhausting tbh. Partnership is very opaque here too, and I think I will need to either get a very good govt job or move to a different firm to make partner, even though I’m like the top associate in my specialization. If I had the chance to live and work somewhere more chill, lower col, with my partner, I’d leap at that. And if your main govt interest is usao, then the regional firm should have very good connections in the local offices if it’s the preeminent firm in the area. And some regional firms have lots of ex DC / govt types and have excellent connections to the broader govt ecosystem, and the partners there might be more willing to go to bat for you given the size and vibe of the firm.
I think your worry about exit ops to govt is real though. It depends on the partners at the “regional firm.” I know that at my firm, our partners routinely offer to help us get govt jobs, send postings and leads around, etc. I haven’t bitten on one yet, but I definitely feel empowered if I want a govt stint by the firm and the partners’ connections. That being said, it’s exhausting to compete with scotus and other feeder clerks all the time for work, and the gunnery shit is just plain exhausting tbh. Partnership is very opaque here too, and I think I will need to either get a very good govt job or move to a different firm to make partner, even though I’m like the top associate in my specialization. If I had the chance to live and work somewhere more chill, lower col, with my partner, I’d leap at that. And if your main govt interest is usao, then the regional firm should have very good connections in the local offices if it’s the preeminent firm in the area. And some regional firms have lots of ex DC / govt types and have excellent connections to the broader govt ecosystem, and the partners there might be more willing to go to bat for you given the size and vibe of the firm.
Want to continue reading?
Register now to search topics and post comments!
Absolutely FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 432635
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Help me pick between firms/markets
This is very helpful, I appreciate it. The regional firm has a small summer program and mostly takes laterals from DC firms. It also has a large DC office and many of the partners are cross-posted as partners in the HQ and DC. I also did some digging on Bloomberg Law and found a ton of examples in the past years of partners departing the regional firm for government jobs and I know they also regularly send people to the local USAO like you said.OPM wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:01 pmMid level who clerked and is at a firm like yours in DC. My take: go with the regional firm. Your finances will be better because you won’t be commuting; you will be with your partner; you’ll probably have better standing within the firm / better shot at partner if you want that; and most likely be happier. Life is too short, and especially if your firm wasn’t giving you work you were excited about, firm prestige isn’t worth sacrificing your happiness.
I think your worry about exit ops to govt is real though. It depends on the partners at the “regional firm.” I know that at my firm, our partners routinely offer to help us get govt jobs, send postings and leads around, etc. I haven’t bitten on one yet, but I definitely feel empowered if I want a govt stint by the firm and the partners’ connections. That being said, it’s exhausting to compete with scotus and other feeder clerks all the time for work, and the gunnery shit is just plain exhausting tbh. Partnership is very opaque here too, and I think I will need to either get a very good govt job or move to a different firm to make partner, even though I’m like the top associate in my specialization. If I had the chance to live and work somewhere more chill, lower col, with my partner, I’d leap at that. And if your main govt interest is usao, then the regional firm should have very good connections in the local offices if it’s the preeminent firm in the area. And some regional firms have lots of ex DC / govt types and have excellent connections to the broader govt ecosystem, and the partners there might be more willing to go to bat for you given the size and vibe of the firm.
-
- Posts: 432635
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Help me pick between firms/markets
Speaking as an AUSA, I don’t think the “regional” firm would hurt you at all in getting a local AUSA gig. It probably won’t hurt you for one of the top offices, either, but will maybe be more neutral. It’s also possible to start at your more local USAO and move to another agency that might serve you better; it depends a little on how long you want to spend in government and what kind of work you want to do at a firm after.
I’m also going to refer back to the really wise post from the past few days saying that people work too hard to keep EVERY door open. I think having to live away from home for 3 days a week (thus also eliminating the income from renting out the condo) makes the DC firm a dealbreaker. You have that firm on your resume and you have the credentials to get a government gig, do good work at a good firm while making your life simpler and see where it takes you.
I’m also going to refer back to the really wise post from the past few days saying that people work too hard to keep EVERY door open. I think having to live away from home for 3 days a week (thus also eliminating the income from renting out the condo) makes the DC firm a dealbreaker. You have that firm on your resume and you have the credentials to get a government gig, do good work at a good firm while making your life simpler and see where it takes you.
-
- Posts: 432635
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Help me pick between firms/markets
I don’t see why this is a tough decision. You’re a COA clerk lwho has already worked at a top firm. You have nothing to prove to anyone credential-wise, and there’s nothing wrong with practicing at the top firm in a slightly smaller market. Plenty of people with top top credentials want that, Jones Day hires SCOTUS clerks every year to work in Ohio. Plus this sounds like Dechert or McGuireWoods or something, which I wouldn’t even call regional. As a midlevel with a condo and a spouse, you’re also not that young anymore, and should be thinking about making connections in the market where you plan to practice permanently.
-
- Posts: 432635
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Help me pick between firms/markets
From the description this sounds like McGuireWoods in Richmond. If so, I would definitely go with that over a DC firm given everything you’ve said.