Fired from small firm Forum

[BaronBarrister]

Came from a T14, joined a small law firm after a summer associate position in a smaller market. Very low salary, but it promised a "work-life balance" and I was hoping to eventually transition to a larger firm. 80% of the firm's work is in a niche area, and I was part of a two-person "litigation" department managed by a partner who seemingly does not have an independent book of business, or a very small one. There was very little work if any my first two months, and extremely negative and harsh feedback started soonafter. A month after a very harsh sit-down and formal write-up, I was fired from this firm. They smugly told me I'd do "just fine" because I'm from a top law school -- yet, now I feel like I'm left shit out of luck. I made some mistakes early on, but also produced some solid work, but there simply wasn't enough to keep my hours up. In other cases, I believe the attorney working above me was simply incompetent. There were occasions where my hours were written off on a memo because my conclusion was "not on track," and then three weeks later, they doubled back and decided I was correct on that particular issue -- of course, my hours stayed written off. So while on the one hand, I'm happy to be out of a terrible situation, I now feel I'm perhaps in an even worse one being unemployed with no experience under my belt.

Am I cooked for future law firm jobs? How can I land another position with just four months of small-firm experience on my resume? Any feedback or advice on this very shitty situation would be appreciated.

[Giro423]

Came from a T14, joined a small law firm after a summer associate position in a smaller market. Very low salary, but it promised a "work-life balance" and I was hoping to eventually transition to a larger firm. 80% of the firm's work is in a niche area, and I was part of a two-person "litigation" department managed by a partner who seemingly does not have an independent book of business, or a very small one. There was very little work if any my first two months, and extremely negative and harsh feedback started soonafter. A month after a very harsh sit-down and formal write-up, I was fired from this firm. They smugly told me I'd do "just fine" because I'm from a top law school -- yet, now I feel like I'm left shit out of luck. I made some mistakes early on, but also produced some solid work, but there simply wasn't enough to keep my hours up. In other cases, I believe the attorney working above me was simply incompetent. There were occasions where my hours were written off on a memo because my conclusion was "not on track," and then three weeks later, they doubled back and decided I was correct on that particular issue -- of course, my hours stayed written off. So while on the one hand, I'm happy to be out of a terrible situation, I now feel I'm perhaps in an even worse one being unemployed with no experience under my belt.

What should I do in this situation? Am I cooked for future law firm jobs? How can I land another position with just four months of small-firm experience on my resume? Any feedback or advice on this very shitty situation would be appreciated.

That blows. You should out them eventually. I would explain this situation to other firms as, although you were let go, it was not the right fit personally or professionally and you were going to leave anyway. Lateral interviewers are often surprisingly sympathetic to shit past experiences and want to hear about them.

I would reach out to a recruiter. If they think there’s any chance they can place you somewhere, anywhere, they’ll talk to you. And they should be able to, if it’s a good recruiter. Maybe not at a v100 right away but somewhere.

I don’t think you are fucked. There are some hiring lit right now, especially if you are willing to move.

[Anonymous User]

That blows. You should out them eventually. I would explain this situation to other firms as, although you were let go, it was not the right fit personally or professionally and you were going to leave anyway. Lateral interviewers are often surprisingly sympathetic to shit past experiences and want to hear about them.

You should absolutely not do these things. Negative comments do not persuade anyone. No one will care. No one will really believe you and no one has the time to "investigate" and find out whether such whining is justified or not. It will just cause you to be viewed as shady. Do not speak negatively about prior employers. Ever. Ever. For any reason.

When asked why you left the firm, prepare an answer that is neutral but not dishonest. You should not hide that you were let go. Your honesty and being candid will be your best plus point for this negative mark on your CV. It's kind of hard to bullshit lawyers, as you know. Plus, we all know each other within 2 degrees of separation. You don't know who knows what behind the scenes. Don't bullshit but don't gripe. It didn't work out. You've learned lessons and are moving on, and by the way you're a good lawyer because reasons X, Y, and Z.

I was fired from a small firm for bullshit reasons too. The strategy is not really different from anyone else being fired in any other scenario. Your being basically a first-year lawyer--it sounds like from your description--this doesn't really hurt you that much. They're not totally wrong when they say your law school pedigree has greater effect right now than it would for older lawyers. Get out there with the resume and cold calling.

Welcome to the private sector in general by the way. People are fucking assholes. This is why I've been in government and will likely never leave. Check out the public sector jobs out there. We need good and smart lawyers. Check out the USAO in your jurisdiction. DOJ is hiring like crazy nationwide.

[Anonymous User]

Do not speak negatively about prior employers. Ever. Ever. For any reason.

It feels very bad to borrow $300,000 at 7% interest and then get fired as a junior associate lol. Especially if you don't come from a wealthy background and have no marketable skills.

Still, you're right that it's absolutely unwise to shittalk former employers during job interviews, because you're essentially being assessed on how much shit you're willing to eat.

But if it weren't for whistleblowers on sites like TLS, we wouldn't know that Paul Hastings and Cadwalader are extremely toxic firms to be avoided at all costs, for instance.

[ughbugchugplug]

Do not speak negatively about prior employers. Ever. Ever. For any reason.

It feels very bad to borrow $300,000 at 7% interest and then get fired as a junior associate lol. Especially if you don't come from a wealthy background and have no marketable skills.

Still, you're right that it's absolutely unwise to shittalk former employers during job interviews, because you're essentially being assessed on how much shit you're willing to eat.

But if it weren't for whistleblowers on sites like TLS, we wouldn't know that Paul Hastings and Cadwalader are extremely toxic firms to be avoided at all costs, for instance.

I think the poster meant don’t say it in a job interview. It’s bad form and never reflects well on you, and you probably won’t be believed. But definitely tell us on here.

This sucks and you are in a bad situation, but you’re going to be ok. Just apply broadly and do your best. Try government as wel.

[Anonymous User]

Do not speak negatively about prior employers. Ever. Ever. For any reason.

It feels very bad to borrow $300,000 at 7% interest and then get fired as a junior associate lol. Especially if you don't come from a wealthy background and have no marketable skills.

Still, you're right that it's absolutely unwise to shittalk former employers during job interviews, because you're essentially being assessed on how much shit you're willing to eat.

But if it weren't for whistleblowers on sites like TLS, we wouldn't know that Paul Hastings and Cadwalader are extremely toxic firms to be avoided at all costs, for instance.

The original responder to this here. Yes, it does feel very bad to get fired, for many different reasons. As someone who has been fired by assholes myself, however, it is important to not let this go to your head. Just because you were fired does not mean you aren't an excellent lawyer or that you weren't doing your job properly. The magical assumption that the universe only fires associates for good cause is bullshit. The legal profession is filled with incompetent older lawyers/partners who don't know what the hell they're doing and have various personality disorders.

And yes, I said not to say negative things solely in the context of a job interview. On TLS it's open season.

[andythefir]

I’m sorry that happened to you. Do you eventually want to be in a similar practice? If not or you don’t know, I’d have plan A be a clerkship and plan B be government work where you can get a positive reference. 1 positive and 1 negative reference is a way better look than just the negative, but 2 negative references and you’re in a really bad spot.

[Anonymous User]

Agree with the above and sorry this happened to you. Once you confirm you were not asked to leave for misconduct or something like that, I think most lawyers looking at this situation will assume the issue was on the firm's side, not you.

Even if you made mistakes, that is expected of new lawyers and a firm is expected to give you some grace / training.

[ughbugchugplug]

Also wanted to add I think this is more common in small firms than is sometimes recognized, for good and bad reasons. Small firms really can’t afford dead weight if an associate doesn’t immediately take to the job. A big law firm can put that guy in the doc review mines until he adjusts to being a lawyer, but a small firm needs you to hit the ground running. As such, I had a coworker fired from my boutique as a 4th year who came over from big law and just wasn’t ready to get going on his own yet, and they couldn’t work around that.

On the other hand, small firm lawyers often are small firm lawyers because they aren’t big firm lawyers. They might be there because they weren’t that smart or had some personality flaw that prevented ascending a more prestigious route. So, you might get dunces or assholes.

In short, go to big law, do not pass Go.

[nealric]

Do not speak negatively about prior employers. Ever. Ever. For any reason.

It feels very bad to borrow $300,000 at 7% interest and then get fired as a junior associate lol. Especially if you don't come from a wealthy background and have no marketable skills.

Still, you're right that it's absolutely unwise to shittalk former employers during job interviews, because you're essentially being assessed on how much shit you're willing to eat.

But if it weren't for whistleblowers on sites like TLS, we wouldn't know that Paul Hastings and Cadwalader are extremely toxic firms to be avoided at all costs, for instance.

Providing information on a larger organization is very different from a small firm. The chances of anyone else here working for that firm are quite low, and nobody can anonymously comment on a very small firm. However, if it's a super niche practice area/market, odds are other people in that niche are familiar with the individuals involved and may have their own thoughts on the strength of the practice.

Anyhow, as a general rule, there's no profit to be gained by badmouthing a previous employer even if they did do you wrong. You want to be able to provide a factually true narrative that frames the departure as not the result of anything you did wrong, but also does not blame the formal employer. It can be as simple as "It turned out [random niche] is not for me and the firm did not have room in any other practice group. I decided I needed to devote myself full-time to exploring other practice areas" (obviously not one to use if you are interviewing in the same niche). But the story you tell needs to be something that feels emotionally true to you (as well as being factually true). People tend not to like unmitigated BS, but they also don't like trash talking.

It's a setback, but your legal career is far from over. I know people who went years unemployed and underemployed during the great recession who eventually worked their way up to positions they are very happy in. Your former bosses are correct that a T14 pedigree may help, at least with getting your foot in the door somewhere else. One good thing about being laid off so quickly is that the next crop of graduating 3Ls won't be graduating until May and won't have bar results until next fall. Since most small firm like to wait until bar results (absent some prior relationship), you have some time before directly competing with the next wave of graduates.

As a final note, it's highly unlikely the firing really had anything to do with your performance. 3 months simply isn't enough time to evaluate someone's performance (especially a brand-new attorney) unless it's just incompetence beyond the pale (highly unlikely if you are actually trying and haven't committed any malfeasance). Sounds more like the firm/practice group was struggling and couldn't really support a Jr. Associate. Sometimes circumstances change between the time and the offer is extended. Some employers will simply admit the truth and really go to bat for you, but others may not even admit to themselves why they let someone go. If the truth is economic, it probably hurts too much for them to accept.

[Anonymous User]

Also wanted to add I think this is more common in small firms than is sometimes recognized, for good and bad reasons. Small firms really can’t afford dead weight if an associate doesn’t immediately take to the job. A big law firm can put that guy in the doc review mines until he adjusts to being a lawyer, but a small firm needs you to hit the ground running. As such, I had a coworker fired from my boutique as a 4th year who came over from big law and just wasn’t ready to get going on his own yet, and they couldn’t work around that.

On the other hand, small firm lawyers often are small firm lawyers because they aren’t big firm lawyers. They might be there because they weren’t that smart or had some personality flaw that prevented ascending a more prestigious route. So, you might get dunces or assholes.

In short, go to big law, do not pass Go.

I don't think the risks are all that different. To have a healthy legal career, you need to put in no more than 3-4 years in biglaw. But that's a huge generalization. You might end up becoming friends with a really good human being and mentor in your biglaw circle, and enjoy the work. Maybe you should stay 10 years. Most of you of course will work for psychopaths and crazy people, so 3-4 years is pushing it.

Those risks exist with small firms too. There are some gems out there. The owners of a good small firm are very often biglaw refugees themselves. Maybe they're good people who despise billable hour culture and toxic work environments. In that case, you can enjoy possibly decades of a career with them--such as lawyers I have actually met. On the other hand, I know one small firm that broke off from a big firm mainly because the principal small firm owner got caught having sex with a secretary which turned into a massive scandal and investigation. That lawyer, it won't surprise anyone, is a manipulative douche in general, so the small firm he founded was also in turn not a wonderful place to be.

You're all taking calculated risks at the end of the day. Control only what you can control: your sense of ethics and your pride in being a good lawyer who does your job well. Everything else is kind of a dice roll.

[Anonymous User]

Also wanted to add I think this is more common in small firms than is sometimes recognized, for good and bad reasons. Small firms really can’t afford dead weight if an associate doesn’t immediately take to the job. A big law firm can put that guy in the doc review mines until he adjusts to being a lawyer, but a small firm needs you to hit the ground running. As such, I had a coworker fired from my boutique as a 4th year who came over from big law and just wasn’t ready to get going on his own yet, and they couldn’t work around that.

On the other hand, small firm lawyers often are small firm lawyers because they aren’t big firm lawyers. They might be there because they weren’t that smart or had some personality flaw that prevented ascending a more prestigious route. So, you might get dunces or assholes.

In short, go to big law, do not pass Go.

I don't think the risks are all that different. To have a healthy legal career, you need to put in no more than 3-4 years in biglaw. But that's a huge generalization. You might end up becoming friends with a really good human being and mentor in your biglaw circle, and enjoy the work. Maybe you should stay 10 years. Most of you of course will work for psychopaths and crazy people, so 3-4 years is pushing it.

Those risks exist with small firms too. There are some gems out there. The owners of a good small firm are very often biglaw refugees themselves. Maybe they're good people who despise billable hour culture and toxic work environments. In that case, you can enjoy possibly decades of a career with them--such as lawyers I have actually met. On the other hand, I know one small firm that broke off from a big firm mainly because the principal small firm owner got caught having sex with a secretary which turned into a massive scandal and investigation. That lawyer, it won't surprise anyone, is a manipulative douche in general, so the small firm he founded was also in turn not a wonderful place to be.

You're all taking calculated risks at the end of the day. Control only what you can control: your sense of ethics and your pride in being a good lawyer who does your job well. Everything else is kind of a dice roll.

OP. Thanks to everyone for the advice.

There were warning signs I should've taken better note of. A summer associate who, was in my opinion, bright, hard-working, and frankly even connected, got no-offered. A senior associate in my department either quit or was fired in between my summer associate gig and starting the job. And another two associates left after I joined. They're always talking about hiring, but it seems like just as many people are out the door as on the way in, if not more. I seriously regret not looking for something else during 3L, as several classmates ended up with 'better' firms from their summers.

[Anonymous User]

OP. Thanks to everyone for the advice.

There were warning signs I should've taken better note of. A summer associate who, was in my opinion, bright, hard-working, and frankly even connected, got no-offered. A senior associate in my department either quit or was fired in between my summer associate gig and starting the job. And another two associates left after I joined. They're always talking about hiring, but it seems like just as many people are out the door as on the way in, if not more. I seriously regret not looking for something else during 3L, as several classmates ended up with 'better' firms from their summers.

With small firms, one way to possibly do some detective work is use the wayback machine or other tools to figure out how the firm roster on the law firm website has changed over the last 5-10 years. High turnover is a massive red flag, as you recognize.

[sparty99]

Came from a T14, joined a small law firm after a summer associate position in a smaller market. Very low salary, but it promised a "work-life balance" and I was hoping to eventually transition to a larger firm. 80% of the firm's work is in a niche area, and I was part of a two-person "litigation" department managed by a partner who seemingly does not have an independent book of business, or a very small one. There was very little work if any my first two months, and extremely negative and harsh feedback started soonafter. A month after a very harsh sit-down and formal write-up, I was fired from this firm. They smugly told me I'd do "just fine" because I'm from a top law school -- yet, now I feel like I'm left shit out of luck. I made some mistakes early on, but also produced some solid work, but there simply wasn't enough to keep my hours up. In other cases, I believe the attorney working above me was simply incompetent. There were occasions where my hours were written off on a memo because my conclusion was "not on track," and then three weeks later, they doubled back and decided I was correct on that particular issue -- of course, my hours stayed written off. So while on the one hand, I'm happy to be out of a terrible situation, I now feel I'm perhaps in an even worse one being unemployed with no experience under my belt.

Am I cooked for future law firm jobs? How can I land another position with just four months of small-firm experience on my resume? Any feedback or advice on this very shitty situation would be appreciated.

I might not even put this firm on your resume if you were there for a few months. If you put this on your resume, say you worked in a two-person litigation department and was laid off due to a lack of work. I think you could say this considering big firms are laying people off now and it would make sense that you were sacked from a small two person firm. Also, government jobs might be a nice route. You can do that 2-3 years then go into big law or big fed.

[Anonymous User]

I might not even put this firm on your resume if you were there for a few months. If you put this on your resume, say you worked in a two-person litigation department and was laid off due to a lack of work. I think you could say this considering big firms are laying people off now and it would make sense that you were sacked from a small two person firm. Also, government jobs might be a nice route. You can do that 2-3 years then go into big law or big fed.

Eventually, I will absolutely take them off, but right now, because I'm so recently out of school, I basically have nothing else. I worked before law school for several years and each summer during (including at this firm), but these last four months are the only difference between me and a fresh grad.

[Anonymous User]

There's a chance, too, that the firm has a reputation for such bullshit among other lawyers, so you won't need to do much explaining - vague "I was let go after we determining it wasn't the right fit" could be more than enough to satisfy even the nosiest interviewer. I clerked for a toxic judge and worked with a notoriously difficult partner and in interviews have often gotten leading questions where the interviewers are clearly looking to trash said people, but I always decline the offer because it is just never a good look for a candidate.

[Anonymous User]

Came from a T14, joined a small law firm after a summer associate position in a smaller market. Very low salary, but it promised a "work-life balance" and I was hoping to eventually transition to a larger firm. 80% of the firm's work is in a niche area, and I was part of a two-person "litigation" department managed by a partner who seemingly does not have an independent book of business, or a very small one. There was very little work if any my first two months, and extremely negative and harsh feedback started soonafter. A month after a very harsh sit-down and formal write-up, I was fired from this firm. They smugly told me I'd do "just fine" because I'm from a top law school -- yet, now I feel like I'm left shit out of luck. I made some mistakes early on, but also produced some solid work, but there simply wasn't enough to keep my hours up. In other cases, I believe the attorney working above me was simply incompetent. There were occasions where my hours were written off on a memo because my conclusion was "not on track," and then three weeks later, they doubled back and decided I was correct on that particular issue -- of course, my hours stayed written off. So while on the one hand, I'm happy to be out of a terrible situation, I now feel I'm perhaps in an even worse one being unemployed with no experience under my belt.

Am I cooked for future law firm jobs? How can I land another position with just four months of small-firm experience on my resume? Any feedback or advice on this very shitty situation would be appreciated.

You are not cooked. I came from a near-the-top of the T14 law school and it seems like my experience really resembles yours. I struggled to keep multiple legal jobs due to ongoing issues with ADHD, only I'm talking several "involuntary transitions" in quick succession. But I kept at it, I changed strategies and shifted my focus and I was able to land at a law job where I have the opportunity to succeed. I know I'm just one case study, but if I can do it, you can do it.

[Anonymous User]

Do not speak negatively about prior employers. Ever. Ever. For any reason.

It feels very bad to borrow $300,000 at 7% interest and then get fired as a junior associate lol. Especially if you don't come from a wealthy background and have no marketable skills.

Still, you're right that it's absolutely unwise to shittalk former employers during job interviews, because you're essentially being assessed on how much shit you're willing to eat.

But if it weren't for whistleblowers on sites like TLS, we wouldn't know that Paul Hastings and Cadwalader are extremely toxic firms to be avoided at all costs, for instance.

Regarding what you are saying, I agree, I do think that people should be honest about their experiences, especially with the growing tuition debt that we have. Regarding the firms you listed as examples, Paul Hastings is not toxic at all--at least my non-NY Office. I enjoy working there.

[Anonymous User]

Do not speak negatively about prior employers. Ever. Ever. For any reason.

It feels very bad to borrow $300,000 at 7% interest and then get fired as a junior associate lol. Especially if you don't come from a wealthy background and have no marketable skills.

Still, you're right that it's absolutely unwise to shittalk former employers during job interviews, because you're essentially being assessed on how much shit you're willing to eat.

But if it weren't for whistleblowers on sites like TLS, we wouldn't know that Paul Hastings and Cadwalader are extremely toxic firms to be avoided at all costs, for instance.

Regarding what you are saying, I agree, I do think that people should be honest about their experiences, especially with the growing tuition debt that we have. Regarding the firms you listed as examples, Paul Hastings is not toxic at all--at least my non-NY Office. I enjoy working there.

Chiming in to agree. Non-NY Paul Hastings, enjoy my job about as much as one can in Biglaw. In several years, I have encountered probably two people I would characterize as toxic? I have heard bad things about the San Diego office and otherwise only generally good things for U.S. offices.

[Anonymous User]

The Paul Hastings comment was either true or S-tier trolling (unsure which)