Caught Dodging Work Forum

[Anonymous User]

Lateraled to a new firm a year ago into new practice area. New firm is fine, people are nice, but I hate the practice area and the new work. Was immediately clear to me that I made the wrong move and wouldn't be staying for a long time. Honestly haven't done well on getting work in my time here. Between hating the work, lack of motivation, catching COVID at one point, etc. my hours are low (low low).

I resolved to make my move in-house (I am a mid level) and, fortunately, have managed to line up a good number of interviews (10+). The process is ongoing, and going well at least - I'm making it through to second rounds and think I'm going to be able to pull an offer or two. Unfortunately though, I don't have a job in-hand.

Because of this interview process, I've been dip, duck, diving, and dodging as much work as I can to facilitate interviewing, but I finally got the call from partners who, in so many words, said it's time to get my ass in gear and start billing. I am firmly confident that they don't know I'm interviewing, but I know that they're watching my utilization closely. They also want people in the office quite a bit, and that's making this process complicated as well.

I'm not making a moral judgment on the firm here - they are right to want to get hours out of me. Unfortunately I was too aggressive in pushing off work (without having had much in the first place previously) and now eyes are on me as I try to navigate my way out.

So here I am TLS - asking for your advice. Any general tips or advice on how to pull this off?

[Anonymous User]

Lateraled to a new firm a year ago into new practice area. New firm is fine, people are nice, but I hate the practice area and the new work. Was immediately clear to me that I made the wrong move and wouldn't be staying for a long time. Honestly haven't done well on getting work in my time here. Between hating the work, lack of motivation, catching COVID at one point, etc. my hours are low (low low).

I resolved to make my move in-house (I am a mid level) and, fortunately, have managed to line up a good number of interviews (10+). The process is ongoing, and going well at least - I'm making it through to second rounds and think I'm going to be able to pull an offer or two. Unfortunately though, I don't have a job in-hand.

Because of this interview process, I've been dip, duck, diving, and dodging as much work as I can to facilitate interviewing, but I finally got the call from partners today who, in so many words, said it's time to get my ass in gear and start billing. I am firmly confident that they don't know I'm interviewing, but I know that they're watching my utilization closely. They also want people in the office quite a bit, and that's making this process complicated as well.

I'm not making a moral judgment on the firm here - they are right to want to get hours out of me. Unfortunately I was too aggressive in pushing off work (without having had much in the first place previously) and now eyes are on me as I try to navigate my way out.

So here I am TLS - asking for your advice. Any general tips or advice on how to pull this off?

My general reaction to this is the process of going in-house can take a long time, especially given your timing (Thanksgiving - New Year's is the time of maximum zone out for most companies who take a general attitude of "we'll get to it in the New Year" which given internal process suddenly can become March). To be fair, the process of getting fired by a law firm can take a long time too, but the climate has shifted and firms seem more willing to cut people quickly these days (see, e.g., Cooley). Given all of this, and the fact that it's much easier to get a job while you have a job and don't have to explain your temporary unemployment situation, I'd start, you know, doing a reasonable job at keeping your hours going until you actually have an in-house job in-hand. Not saying you need to try to become a superstar but you should do enough to get people off your back for the next month (or six) that it'll take to actually secure a position in-house. Once you have the offer letter you can plan your quick and graceful exit.

[Anonymous User]

Lateraled to a new firm a year ago into new practice area. New firm is fine, people are nice, but I hate the practice area and the new work. Was immediately clear to me that I made the wrong move and wouldn't be staying for a long time. Honestly haven't done well on getting work in my time here. Between hating the work, lack of motivation, catching COVID at one point, etc. my hours are low (low low).

I resolved to make my move in-house (I am a mid level) and, fortunately, have managed to line up a good number of interviews (10+). The process is ongoing, and going well at least - I'm making it through to second rounds and think I'm going to be able to pull an offer or two. Unfortunately though, I don't have a job in-hand.

Because of this interview process, I've been dip, duck, diving, and dodging as much work as I can to facilitate interviewing, but I finally got the call from partners today who, in so many words, said it's time to get my ass in gear and start billing. I am firmly confident that they don't know I'm interviewing, but I know that they're watching my utilization closely. They also want people in the office quite a bit, and that's making this process complicated as well.

I'm not making a moral judgment on the firm here - they are right to want to get hours out of me. Unfortunately I was too aggressive in pushing off work (without having had much in the first place previously) and now eyes are on me as I try to navigate my way out.

So here I am TLS - asking for your advice. Any general tips or advice on how to pull this off?

My general reaction to this is the process of going in-house can take a long time, especially given your timing (Thanksgiving - New Year's is the time of maximum zone out for most companies who take a general attitude of "we'll get to it in the New Year" which given internal process suddenly can become March). To be fair, the process of getting fired by a law firm can take a long time too, but the climate has shifted and firms seem more willing to cut people quickly these days (see, e.g., Cooley). Given all of this, and the fact that it's much easier to get a job while you have a job and don't have to explain your temporary unemployment situation, I'd start, you know, doing a reasonable job at keeping your hours going until you actually have an in-house job in-hand. Not saying you need to try to become a superstar but you should do enough to get people off your back for the next month (or six) that it'll take to actually secure a position in-house. Once you have the offer letter you can plan your quick and graceful exit.

Got it - that makes sense. I think my current view is to just accept all new work that comes in and figure it out with interviews. If I have to step out of the office for 30 minutes to take a phone call that's just what I'll do.

Do you (or any TLS readers) have any advice on taking Webex interviews while having to go into the office? As I get more advanced into the process, I'm interviewing with GC's who can't necessarily meet at the ideal 8-10AM time frame and have to meet at 1 PM, when I need to be in the office. Should I book some conference space at a hotel across the street or something and do a quick walk over to take the interview?

[Lawman1865]

Lateraled to a new firm a year ago into new practice area. New firm is fine, people are nice, but I hate the practice area and the new work. Was immediately clear to me that I made the wrong move and wouldn't be staying for a long time. Honestly haven't done well on getting work in my time here. Between hating the work, lack of motivation, catching COVID at one point, etc. my hours are low (low low).

I resolved to make my move in-house (I am a mid level) and, fortunately, have managed to line up a good number of interviews (10+). The process is ongoing, and going well at least - I'm making it through to second rounds and think I'm going to be able to pull an offer or two. Unfortunately though, I don't have a job in-hand.

Because of this interview process, I've been dip, duck, diving, and dodging as much work as I can to facilitate interviewing, but I finally got the call from partners today who, in so many words, said it's time to get my ass in gear and start billing. I am firmly confident that they don't know I'm interviewing, but I know that they're watching my utilization closely. They also want people in the office quite a bit, and that's making this process complicated as well.

I'm not making a moral judgment on the firm here - they are right to want to get hours out of me. Unfortunately I was too aggressive in pushing off work (without having had much in the first place previously) and now eyes are on me as I try to navigate my way out.

So here I am TLS - asking for your advice. Any general tips or advice on how to pull this off?

My general reaction to this is the process of going in-house can take a long time, especially given your timing (Thanksgiving - New Year's is the time of maximum zone out for most companies who take a general attitude of "we'll get to it in the New Year" which given internal process suddenly can become March). To be fair, the process of getting fired by a law firm can take a long time too, but the climate has shifted and firms seem more willing to cut people quickly these days (see, e.g., Cooley). Given all of this, and the fact that it's much easier to get a job while you have a job and don't have to explain your temporary unemployment situation, I'd start, you know, doing a reasonable job at keeping your hours going until you actually have an in-house job in-hand. Not saying you need to try to become a superstar but you should do enough to get people off your back for the next month (or six) that it'll take to actually secure a position in-house. Once you have the offer letter you can plan your quick and graceful exit.

Got it - that makes sense. I think my current view is to just accept all new work that comes in and figure it out with interviews. If I have to literally step out of the office for 30 minutes to take a phone call that's just what I'll do.

Do you (or any TLS readers) have any advice on taking Webex interviews while having to go into the office? As I get more advanced into the process, I'm interviewing with GC's who can't necessarily meet at the ideal 8-10AM time frame and have to meet at 1 PM, when I need to be in the office. Should I book some conference space at a hotel across the street or something and do a quick walk over to take the interview?

To the extent helpful, I second the previous poster. I also note that your potential in-house employers should understand that you are busy and have a professional life as well. In some ways, I suppose they may even expect it (since they are interviewing a competent and well regarded law firm associate, etc etc). Obviously it is important to make yourself available when possible, but I don't think they will be shocked if you aren't available at every time slot they suggest.

As far as the web-ex interviewing, that's an interesting question. I would have assumed it would be fine to just block off that time and take the interview in your office with the door locked. As long as you aren't too loud, my experience is that people can't generally understand what is being said (and they aren't standing right outside your office door eavesdropping). That being said, given the gravity and importance of not letting it on that you are interviewing, I understand why that could be risky. Alternatively, I would try at best to interview on days you are home. Or perhaps if you know a GC wants to meet at 1:00 PM on webex, don't go in that particular day, or go into the office for the afternoon hours.

[Anonymous User]

Lateraled to a new firm a year ago into new practice area. New firm is fine, people are nice, but I hate the practice area and the new work. Was immediately clear to me that I made the wrong move and wouldn't be staying for a long time. Honestly haven't done well on getting work in my time here. Between hating the work, lack of motivation, catching COVID at one point, etc. my hours are low (low low).

I resolved to make my move in-house (I am a mid level) and, fortunately, have managed to line up a good number of interviews (10+). The process is ongoing, and going well at least - I'm making it through to second rounds and think I'm going to be able to pull an offer or two. Unfortunately though, I don't have a job in-hand.

Because of this interview process, I've been dip, duck, diving, and dodging as much work as I can to facilitate interviewing, but I finally got the call from partners who, in so many words, said it's time to get my ass in gear and start billing. I am firmly confident that they don't know I'm interviewing, but I know that they're watching my utilization closely. They also want people in the office quite a bit, and that's making this process complicated as well.

I'm not making a moral judgment on the firm here - they are right to want to get hours out of me. Unfortunately I was too aggressive in pushing off work (without having had much in the first place previously) and now eyes are on me as I try to navigate my way out.

So here I am TLS - asking for your advice. Any general tips or advice on how to pull this off?

Just tell them you're trying to move in house ASAP and that you'll send work back to the firm if you can.

[mardash]

Lateraled to a new firm a year ago into new practice area. New firm is fine, people are nice, but I hate the practice area and the new work. Was immediately clear to me that I made the wrong move and wouldn't be staying for a long time. Honestly haven't done well on getting work in my time here. Between hating the work, lack of motivation, catching COVID at one point, etc. my hours are low (low low).

I resolved to make my move in-house (I am a mid level) and, fortunately, have managed to line up a good number of interviews (10+). The process is ongoing, and going well at least - I'm making it through to second rounds and think I'm going to be able to pull an offer or two. Unfortunately though, I don't have a job in-hand.

Because of this interview process, I've been dip, duck, diving, and dodging as much work as I can to facilitate interviewing, but I finally got the call from partners who, in so many words, said it's time to get my ass in gear and start billing. I am firmly confident that they don't know I'm interviewing, but I know that they're watching my utilization closely. They also want people in the office quite a bit, and that's making this process complicated as well.

I'm not making a moral judgment on the firm here - they are right to want to get hours out of me. Unfortunately I was too aggressive in pushing off work (without having had much in the first place previously) and now eyes are on me as I try to navigate my way out.

So here I am TLS - asking for your advice. Any general tips or advice on how to pull this off?

Just tell them you're trying to move in house ASAP and that you'll send work back to the firm if you can.

This is bad advice. OP, the right move is to try to schedule interviews on the day(s) you’re working from home. And as a general matter, although I agree with everything that’s been said about these processes taking months, I think if you’re interviewing with a GC you’re in a good place for that opportunity unless they’re the only lawyer on staff. Every time I’ve interviewed with the GC an offer was extended. Not always immediately, though.

[Anonymous User]

Lateraled to a new firm a year ago into new practice area. New firm is fine, people are nice, but I hate the practice area and the new work. Was immediately clear to me that I made the wrong move and wouldn't be staying for a long time. Honestly haven't done well on getting work in my time here. Between hating the work, lack of motivation, catching COVID at one point, etc. my hours are low (low low).

I resolved to make my move in-house (I am a mid level) and, fortunately, have managed to line up a good number of interviews (10+). The process is ongoing, and going well at least - I'm making it through to second rounds and think I'm going to be able to pull an offer or two. Unfortunately though, I don't have a job in-hand.

Because of this interview process, I've been dip, duck, diving, and dodging as much work as I can to facilitate interviewing, but I finally got the call from partners who, in so many words, said it's time to get my ass in gear and start billing. I am firmly confident that they don't know I'm interviewing, but I know that they're watching my utilization closely. They also want people in the office quite a bit, and that's making this process complicated as well.

I'm not making a moral judgment on the firm here - they are right to want to get hours out of me. Unfortunately I was too aggressive in pushing off work (without having had much in the first place previously) and now eyes are on me as I try to navigate my way out.

So here I am TLS - asking for your advice. Any general tips or advice on how to pull this off?

Just tell them you're trying to move in house ASAP and that you'll send work back to the firm if you can.

This is bad advice. OP, the right move is to try to schedule interviews on the day(s) you’re working from home. And as a general matter, although I agree with everything that’s been said about these processes taking months, I think if you’re interviewing with a GC you’re in a good place for that opportunity unless they’re the only lawyer on staff. Every time I’ve interviewed with the GC an offer was extended. Not always immediately, though.

Understood - unfortunately as far as WFH, this group wants everyone in just about (if not straight up) every day of the week until the Christmas holiday. I'm thinking I might rent a coworking conference room or potentially find a small deserted conference room or something. It's a logistical challenge to be sure.

[mardash]

Do it. It sounds like it will make you more comfortable. Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

You have to be strategic about webex interviews. I just went through a job transition where I had an excellent relationship with the former employer, but I still needed to maintain secrecy that I was applying elsewhere. I managed this very carefully and did not even consider conducting a webex interview from my actual office. What happens if someone walks in on you? What happens if someone does listen in? The risks are tremendous.

You can schedule interviews at the beginning or end of a particular work day, while explaining the sensitivity of the situation, which any normal interviewer will understand. Then just stay at home and get to work a little late that day, or leave work a little early that day to get home and do it from there. Or borrow a friend's conference room or some other space.

[Anonymous User]

Understood - unfortunately as far as WFH, this group wants everyone in just about (if not straight up) every day of the week until the Christmas holiday. I'm thinking I might rent a coworking conference room or potentially find a small deserted conference room or something. It's a logistical challenge to be sure.

The remote conference room thing didn't work for me. A head partner saw me through the glass and came in to crack a joke, and I froze and said "I'm on an important call right now" with a totally freaked out look on my face.

I often put a sticky on my door that says "on a call, please send an email" and that has worked out. Although I once had an office with no insulation in the walls and a gossipy neighbor and that was tricky.

[papermateflair]

Understood - unfortunately as far as WFH, this group wants everyone in just about (if not straight up) every day of the week until the Christmas holiday. I'm thinking I might rent a coworking conference room or potentially find a small deserted conference room or something. It's a logistical challenge to be sure.

The remote conference room thing didn't work for me. A head partner saw me through the glass and came in to crack a joke, and I froze and said "I'm on an important call right now" with a totally freaked out look on my face.

I often put a sticky on my door that says "on a call, please send an email" and that has worked out. Although I once had an office with no insulation in the walls and a gossipy neighbor and that was tricky.

I was possibly a little too cavalier about these things when I was lateralling (pre-COVID, so it was a phone call), but I literally took initial interview calls from my office next to the partner I worked for. I figured that unless I was yelling, they couldn't really hear enough to know whether I was interviewing or talking to a friend of a friend who is in law school and wants to know more about the benefits practice. I didn't even put a sign on the door, but surely people at your firm see a door is shut they knock first? If they knock, then you can just tell them you're on a call but will catch up with them in a bit. Doing it in the office is less suspicious to me, unless the walls are literally paper thin.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

For any law students or fresh associates reading this thread, there’s a difference between passively being slow and actively dodging work. You are much more likely to get in trouble for the latter than the former.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't feel comfortable interviewing from my office at work, even with the door closed and locked. I'd take those days off if possible. Even a half day would do. Or block out a doctor's appointment. As to maintenance of hours, I think you should ramp up at work for a bit since you don't have any offers in hand. I'd consider the call from the partner as a warning. It could be months before you land an offer.

[Buglaw]

I interviewed at coffee shops via video and didn’t have any issues. Future employers get that it’s and awkward process

[Anonymous User]

I did a short video interview at work a few weeks back and it was not a good idea. I have video calls I talk on every day, but partners kept walking by my office and one stopped to look in to see who I was on with. I was anxious and performed terribly. I strongly encourage everyone to interview from home.

[Anonymous User]

how low hours are we talking? like 100 or are we talking sub-50? If sub-50, I think the problem is you not the firm - you've been dodging hours, and as usual for associates who dodge work, it finally bit you in the ass. Stop posting on TLS and start billing!

- Partner from a V50 who had a very similar conversation with a new associate in the last few weeks. This associate billed 10 hours and seemed surprised that we had to have a talk with him lol.

[Anonymous User]

how low hours are we talking? like 100 or are we talking sub-50? If sub-50, I think the problem is you not the firm - you've been dodging hours, and as usual for associates who dodge work, it finally bit you in the ass. Stop posting on TLS and start billing!

- Partner from a V50 who had a very similar conversation with a new associate in the last few weeks. This associate billed 10 hours and seemed surprised that we had to have a talk with him lol.

I'm an AUSA. I have another friend who is an AUSA who used to work in private. Her mother died so her hours were low for a bit. A partner "had a very similar conversation" with her about her hours too, despite having actual knowledge that her mother had passed away. And this is why we are AUSAs.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

how low hours are we talking? like 100 or are we talking sub-50? If sub-50, I think the problem is you not the firm - you've been dodging hours, and as usual for associates who dodge work, it finally bit you in the ass. Stop posting on TLS and start billing!

- Partner from a V50 who had a very similar conversation with a new associate in the last few weeks. This associate billed 10 hours and seemed surprised that we had to have a talk with him lol.

I’ve gotten this talk twice in the last 4+ years despite continuously dodging work the whole time. Starting to think whole “it’ll bite you in the ass eventually” thing is overstated. Don’t overplay your hand but don’t let partners set a vague narrative either. Eventually you’ll get to the point where it won’t matter one bit if they fire you because severance will be a blessing.

[Anonymous User]

I did a short video interview at work a few weeks back and it was not a good idea. I have video calls I talk on every day, but partners kept walking by my office and one stopped to look in to see who I was on with. I was anxious and performed terribly. I strongly encourage everyone to interview from home.

Op here - rented a co-working office across the street and snuck out for 45 minutes. Worked like a charm!