Getting Big Law Years After Graduating HYS Forum

[Anonymous User]

Graduated HYS a few years back with zero intention of ever practicing law. Instead, I was pretty set to practice policy in a certain branch of foreign affairs. Got a gig with a think tank and all was well and good until it got hit with some very nasty employment related lawsuits. I had to switch from foreign policy to in-house counsel for litigation overnight. When all was said and done, I came to love employment law substantially more than foreign policy. I ultimately opted to work for a very small firm that we had as outside counsel because I wanted to learn from the ground up beginning with plaintiff side (my org was a rare defense client for the firm) and the head of the firm agreed to allow me to work completely remote, rendering me a digital nomad out of the United States.

I think I will soon reach a point where I have learned all there is to learn from this side of the law and am ready to play in the big leagues. Only problem is I am entirely lost on how to pursue this. I have a few big law contacts that we had as outside counsel, and I know they would serve as glowing references. I personally do not have any contacts in the kinds of highly competitive firms I'd be most interested in, and I am not even sure at this point if trying to approach them in such a non-traditional fashion is even worth it.

I am meeting with a career advisor from my alma mater, but just wanted to see if anyone else had some creative ideas because I think that's what I need. I am pursuing this the exact opposite of the very simple way I wish I did it, had I known I actually wanted to practice law (OCI - 2L Summer - Offer - Firm - Lateral if desired). I feel like I am in the wild west of seeking to move into the big leagues.

Anyone who has been through something similar or even knows something anecdotally, please share!

[existentialcrisis]

Seems like you need a clerkship and then could recruit for firms from there?

[Anonymous User]

Not helpful to you but doing foreign policy work and being a digital nomad is my dream, and I'm a US-based big law lawyer. Trade?

[Anonymous User]

Civil trial lawyer here with 20+ years of experience. In an era when it's really hard to be a civil trial lawyer, I actually am one.

I've had some really interesting experiences going up against HYS law graduates, some very young and some very experienced. I sincerely offer you this point for the purpose of being helpful, so I hope it is. Like graduates of any other school you can think of, it's been a very mixed bag, but there's something about these HYS grads that makes them unique, and often in a bad way. Not always. I'm just saying, often.

The good ones are like the good ones from any other school: super stars. Not only do these lawyers have good people skills, but unsurprisingly they tend to be excellent motion writers and very good thinkers on questions of legal analysis, evidentiary objections, that sort of thing, even if it's on their feet.

The bad ones have been really horrifically bad. Their careers have actually ended up kind of in the dumps. Their reputations are at best mediocre, but at worst they are terrible lawyers who seem to land new unsuspecting clients only because of the HYS pedigree. This helps them survive in the business but they are not prospering. Some of them have also struck me as having weird personality disorders that lead to bigger problems: rudeness to judges or court staff, obnoxiously stubborn stances in dealing with opposing counsel that often translates to unexpected defeats in court, arrogance in believing they are correct about a proposition of law that--again--translates to unexpected defeats, and more.

If you're a relatively young guy or gal, I just urge you to be strategic about the awesome gift you've been given of that HYS degree, because it isn't a given that it will automagically lead to success. Get really good training on how to be a litigator, for example, if you think you like litigation. (I think you must, if you like employment law, as it is possible but difficult to practice employment law on the advice-and-counsel side without also getting involved in litigation). But this probably means stay away from biglaw and think more about DOJ, state AG offices, or public interest firms that actually litigate. Hell, become a local prosecutor if you want to really dive deep in. A real trial lawyer who knows their way around a jury with a HYS degree? That sounds terrifying to me.

Either way, put some thought into that as well as you examine your career options.

[Anonymous User]

Civil trial lawyer here with 20+ years of experience. In an era when it's really hard to be a civil trial lawyer, I actually am one.

I've had some really interesting experiences going up against HYS law graduates, some very young and some very experienced. I sincerely offer you this point for the purpose of being helpful, so I hope it is. Like graduates of any other school you can think of, it's been a very mixed bag, but there's something about these HYS grads that makes them unique, and often in a bad way. Not always. I'm just saying, often.

The good ones are like the good ones from any other school: super stars. Not only do these lawyers have good people skills, but unsurprisingly they tend to be excellent motion writers and very good thinkers on questions of legal analysis, evidentiary objections, that sort of thing, even if it's on their feet.

The bad ones have been really horrifically bad. Their careers have actually ended up kind of in the dumps. Their reputations are at best mediocre, but at worst they are terrible lawyers who seem to land new unsuspecting clients only because of the HYS pedigree. This helps them survive in the business but they are not prospering. Some of them have also struck me as having weird personality disorders that lead to bigger problems: rudeness to judges or court staff, obnoxiously stubborn stances in dealing with opposing counsel that often translates to unexpected defeats in court, arrogance in believing they are correct about a proposition of law that--again--translates to unexpected defeats, and more.

If you're a relatively young guy or gal, I just urge you to be strategic about the awesome gift you've been given of that HYS degree, because it isn't a given that it will automagically lead to success. Get really good training on how to be a litigator, for example, if you think you like litigation. (I think you must, if you like employment law, as it is possible but difficult to practice employment law on the advice-and-counsel side without also getting involved in litigation). But this probably means stay away from biglaw and think more about DOJ, state AG offices, or public interest firms that actually litigate. Hell, become a local prosecutor if you want to really dive deep in. A real trial lawyer who knows their way around a jury with a HYS degree? That sounds terrifying to me.

Either way, put some thought into that as well as you examine your career options.

This was a wild ride from start to finish. I was going to suggest OP clerkship to help pivot, but I guess they should also consider checking their privilege and then maybe double checking for a social disorder too. YYMV

[existentialcrisis]

Civil trial lawyer here with 20+ years of experience. In an era when it's really hard to be a civil trial lawyer, I actually am one.

I've had some really interesting experiences going up against HYS law graduates, some very young and some very experienced. I sincerely offer you this point for the purpose of being helpful, so I hope it is. Like graduates of any other school you can think of, it's been a very mixed bag, but there's something about these HYS grads that makes them unique, and often in a bad way. Not always. I'm just saying, often.

The good ones are like the good ones from any other school: super stars. Not only do these lawyers have good people skills, but unsurprisingly they tend to be excellent motion writers and very good thinkers on questions of legal analysis, evidentiary objections, that sort of thing, even if it's on their feet.

The bad ones have been really horrifically bad. Their careers have actually ended up kind of in the dumps. Their reputations are at best mediocre, but at worst they are terrible lawyers who seem to land new unsuspecting clients only because of the HYS pedigree. This helps them survive in the business but they are not prospering. Some of them have also struck me as having weird personality disorders that lead to bigger problems: rudeness to judges or court staff, obnoxiously stubborn stances in dealing with opposing counsel that often translates to unexpected defeats in court, arrogance in believing they are correct about a proposition of law that--again--translates to unexpected defeats, and more.

If you're a relatively young guy or gal, I just urge you to be strategic about the awesome gift you've been given of that HYS degree, because it isn't a given that it will automagically lead to success. Get really good training on how to be a litigator, for example, if you think you like litigation. (I think you must, if you like employment law, as it is possible but difficult to practice employment law on the advice-and-counsel side without also getting involved in litigation). But this probably means stay away from biglaw and think more about DOJ, state AG offices, or public interest firms that actually litigate. Hell, become a local prosecutor if you want to really dive deep in. A real trial lawyer who knows their way around a jury with a HYS degree? That sounds terrifying to me.

Either way, put some thought into that as well as you examine your career options.

This was a wild ride from start to finish. I was going to suggest OP clerkship to help pivot, but I guess they should also consider checking their privilege and then maybe double checking for a social disorder too. YYMV

Yeah what a weird post.

[bigboybob]

What privilege? I didn't see any. Probably worked hard just like the rest of us. Check your ignorance.

[Anonymous User]

Seems like you need a clerkship and then could recruit for firms from there?

OP Here. I'd love to clerk but don't have any academic references. I coasted in law school. It took being forced to choose between unemployment and practicing law to make me realize I actually enjoyed law.

[Anonymous User]

Not helpful to you but doing foreign policy work and being a digital nomad is my dream, and I'm a US-based big law lawyer. Trade?

OP here.

Ha! So I am practicing employment law for a small plaintiff-side firm, not doing foreign policy. The digital nomad thing is a great experience, but I can only make so much progress in my career doing it. At some point I see in the not so distant future, visiting one more country will have less marginal utility than making a substantial jump in my career.

If you ever get the opportunity to work for a firm that lets you work from anywhere, definitely jump on it. I work 40 hrs a week and make half of what big law pays, but arguably work half as much as some in big law (depending on practice area).

Lots of trade offs. I wonder if the ideal scenario is getting big law in the USA and lateraling to an international firm in a place with many cool nearby countries.

[Anonymous User]

Civil trial lawyer here with 20+ years of experience. In an era when it's really hard to be a civil trial lawyer, I actually am one.

I've had some really interesting experiences going up against HYS law graduates, some very young and some very experienced. I sincerely offer you this point for the purpose of being helpful, so I hope it is. Like graduates of any other school you can think of, it's been a very mixed bag, but there's something about these HYS grads that makes them unique, and often in a bad way. Not always. I'm just saying, often.

The good ones are like the good ones from any other school: super stars. Not only do these lawyers have good people skills, but unsurprisingly they tend to be excellent motion writers and very good thinkers on questions of legal analysis, evidentiary objections, that sort of thing, even if it's on their feet.

The bad ones have been really horrifically bad. Their careers have actually ended up kind of in the dumps. Their reputations are at best mediocre, but at worst they are terrible lawyers who seem to land new unsuspecting clients only because of the HYS pedigree. This helps them survive in the business but they are not prospering. Some of them have also struck me as having weird personality disorders that lead to bigger problems: rudeness to judges or court staff, obnoxiously stubborn stances in dealing with opposing counsel that often translates to unexpected defeats in court, arrogance in believing they are correct about a proposition of law that--again--translates to unexpected defeats, and more.

If you're a relatively young guy or gal, I just urge you to be strategic about the awesome gift you've been given of that HYS degree, because it isn't a given that it will automagically lead to success. Get really good training on how to be a litigator, for example, if you think you like litigation. (I think you must, if you like employment law, as it is possible but difficult to practice employment law on the advice-and-counsel side without also getting involved in litigation). But this probably means stay away from biglaw and think more about DOJ, state AG offices, or public interest firms that actually litigate. Hell, become a local prosecutor if you want to really dive deep in. A real trial lawyer who knows their way around a jury with a HYS degree? That sounds terrifying to me.

Either way, put some thought into that as well as you examine your career options.

OP Here.

The people I consider the best lawyers and mentors went to mid-tier regional schools that people on the opposite coast never heard of. You are spot on about it being a mixed bag in terms of HYS grads, at least from one perspective. Namely, I really don't see what an HYS degree would add to these lawyers I really respect. They're already excellent.

I definitely don't think my HYS degree makes me better than any other lawyer. My only hope is it will get my foot in the door at a large firm. I truly wish I could sit down partners and make them read my body work of work instead of just looking at my degree, but sadly that happens only at a later stage. In a lot of ways, I am way prouder of my writing samples than my degrees. My degree is who I was when I graduate law school. The person I am as a lawyer on the same footing as all the other lawyers from all the other schools puts the me on graduation day to shame.

You also have a fantastic point about whether big law will allow me to litigate. My old organization was one of the rare defendants that litigated the hell out of its cases. But when all was said and done, we spent low 7 figures, and outside counsel was pressing us every step of the way to settle.

This is something I really need to think about because I really do want to experience all aspects of employment law and the litigation process. I even find civil procedure enjoyable. That said, I know how many cases settle. So how much litigating and geeking out on civ pro will I actually get to do if its big law (defense)?

[Anonymous User]

OP I’m curious what it was like pivoting from policy to litigation. Im a 3L and I have the chance to work for a federal agency doing policy work but I’m concerned that taking myself out of the litigation game so early on will narrow my job options and career path down the line. I will be working with litigators but not actually doing any of the work myself to bring a case to trial.

Any advice?

[CanadianWolf]

Civil trial lawyer here with 20+ years of experience. In an era when it's really hard to be a civil trial lawyer, I actually am one.

I've had some really interesting experiences going up against HYS law graduates, some very young and some very experienced. I sincerely offer you this point for the purpose of being helpful, so I hope it is. Like graduates of any other school you can think of, it's been a very mixed bag, but there's something about these HYS grads that makes them unique, and often in a bad way. Not always. I'm just saying, often.

The good ones are like the good ones from any other school: super stars. Not only do these lawyers have good people skills, but unsurprisingly they tend to be excellent motion writers and very good thinkers on questions of legal analysis, evidentiary objections, that sort of thing, even if it's on their feet.

The bad ones have been really horrifically bad. Their careers have actually ended up kind of in the dumps. Their reputations are at best mediocre, but at worst they are terrible lawyers who seem to land new unsuspecting clients only because of the HYS pedigree. This helps them survive in the business but they are not prospering. Some of them have also struck me as having weird personality disorders that lead to bigger problems: rudeness to judges or court staff, obnoxiously stubborn stances in dealing with opposing counsel that often translates to unexpected defeats in court, arrogance in believing they are correct about a proposition of law that--again--translates to unexpected defeats, and more.

If you're a relatively young guy or gal, I just urge you to be strategic about the awesome gift you've been given of that HYS degree, because it isn't a given that it will automagically lead to success. Get really good training on how to be a litigator, for example, if you think you like litigation. (I think you must, if you like employment law, as it is possible but difficult to practice employment law on the advice-and-counsel side without also getting involved in litigation). But this probably means stay away from biglaw and think more about DOJ, state AG offices, or public interest firms that actually litigate. Hell, become a local prosecutor if you want to really dive deep in. A real trial lawyer who knows their way around a jury with a HYS degree? That sounds terrifying to me.

Either way, put some thought into that as well as you examine your career options.

This was a wild ride from start to finish. I was going to suggest OP clerkship to help pivot, but I guess they should also consider checking their privilege and then maybe double checking for a social disorder too. YYMV

Yeah what a weird post.

Agree that it is a weird post. Was interesting until the final few sentences. No experienced trial lawyer cares about where one attended law school.

[Anonymous User]

Seems like you need a clerkship and then could recruit for firms from there?

OP Here. I'd love to clerk but don't have any academic references. I coasted in law school. It took being forced to choose between unemployment and practicing law to make me realize I actually enjoyed law.

Academic references are definitely a plus, but they aren't necessary for a lot of judges (particularly district court judges). Figure out how to tell your story in a cover letter and apply broadly.

[Anonymous User]

Agree that it is a weird post. Was interesting until the final few sentences. No experienced trial lawyer cares about where one attended law school.

Lol... I'm the weird poster. I'll take the "interesting until the final few sentences" as a mild compliment even if it's backhanded, and quibble about those last few sentences. Where someone goes to law school isn't always relevant, but it is always interesting. It's certainly not relevant to how good or bad any lawyer is, obviously. But I was trying to be really polite about something, and will be more blunt now: I've gone up against some goddamn weirdos from Harvard and Yale. Some of the oddest forms of bad lawyering I ever witnessed came from these folks.

That was all I was trying to say here, probably poorly and using too much rambling. In short, don't be that guy.

[Anonymous User]

At one of HYS. Can confirm there are plenty of weirdos. I doubt very many will make their way to civil trial work, but you never know. Population is def non-zero

[johndhi]

this will be easy as F. biglaw hires a ton of people and it sounds like you'd have extremely relevant experience for an employment group. get hired as a mid-level or something and argue that you should have a shortened partner track if you're able to exceed expectations.

just reach out to the recruiting email address for your favorite big law firm, or to the partners in those groups. you're a great candidate for them.

the fact that you went to HYS has almost nothing to do with this so not sure why that's relevant. you have relevant litigation experience, government-ish experience which is good for biglaw client development resumes, and good credentials. choose your landing spot wisely.

[lavarman84]

Not helpful to you but doing foreign policy work and being a digital nomad is my dream, and I'm a US-based big law lawyer. Trade?

OP here.

Ha! So I am practicing employment law for a small plaintiff-side firm, not doing foreign policy. The digital nomad thing is a great experience, but I can only make so much progress in my career doing it. At some point I see in the not so distant future, visiting one more country will have less marginal utility than making a substantial jump in my career.

If you ever get the opportunity to work for a firm that lets you work from anywhere, definitely jump on it. I work 40 hrs a week and make half of what big law pays, but arguably work half as much as some in big law (depending on practice area).

Lots of trade offs. I wonder if the ideal scenario is getting big law in the USA and lateraling to an international firm in a place with many cool nearby countries.

OP, why biglaw? It sounds like you have a good thing where you are. I know you referred to biglaw as the "big leagues," but I'm not so sure you won't be disappointed when you actually experience it if that's your reasoning for doing it.

[Anonymous User]

Not helpful to you but doing foreign policy work and being a digital nomad is my dream, and I'm a US-based big law lawyer. Trade?

OP here.

Ha! So I am practicing employment law for a small plaintiff-side firm, not doing foreign policy. The digital nomad thing is a great experience, but I can only make so much progress in my career doing it. At some point I see in the not so distant future, visiting one more country will have less marginal utility than making a substantial jump in my career.

If you ever get the opportunity to work for a firm that lets you work from anywhere, definitely jump on it. I work 40 hrs a week and make half of what big law pays, but arguably work half as much as some in big law (depending on practice area).

Lots of trade offs. I wonder if the ideal scenario is getting big law in the USA and lateraling to an international firm in a place with many cool nearby countries.

OP, why biglaw? It sounds like you have a good thing where you are. I know you referred to biglaw as the "big leagues," but I'm not so sure you won't be disappointed when you actually experience it if that's your reasoning for doing it.

Hey OP Here. Totally ghosted this thread. Hopefully you see this. I will DM you. Can you tell me what your gut is as to why someone would be disappointed once landing big law. Keep in mind, I'd be hoping to enter as a mid-level associate.

[Anonymous User]

Not helpful to you but doing foreign policy work and being a digital nomad is my dream, and I'm a US-based big law lawyer. Trade?

OP here.

Ha! So I am practicing employment law for a small plaintiff-side firm, not doing foreign policy. The digital nomad thing is a great experience, but I can only make so much progress in my career doing it. At some point I see in the not so distant future, visiting one more country will have less marginal utility than making a substantial jump in my career.

If you ever get the opportunity to work for a firm that lets you work from anywhere, definitely jump on it. I work 40 hrs a week and make half of what big law pays, but arguably work half as much as some in big law (depending on practice area).

Lots of trade offs. I wonder if the ideal scenario is getting big law in the USA and lateraling to an international firm in a place with many cool nearby countries.

OP, why biglaw? It sounds like you have a good thing where you are. I know you referred to biglaw as the "big leagues," but I'm not so sure you won't be disappointed when you actually experience it if that's your reasoning for doing it.

Hey OP Here. Totally ghosted this thread. Hopefully you see this. I will DM you. Can you tell me what your gut is as to why someone would be disappointed once landing big law. Keep in mind, I'd be hoping to enter as a mid-level associate.

Think about it like this: would you rather be person #3 working for a 10 person small business, or would you rather be middle manager (person #50,000) working for IBM? Sure IBM is the "big leagues," but in large ways the bureaucracy and institutionalization that allows them to manage big matters also makes the job less "fun." As a mid-level, you are going to be doing a lot of managing juniors and managing matters for partners. The matters are probably bigger than what you are used to, but it very well might feel like a big step down too in a lot of ways. The pay is better, for sure, but don't do it because you think it will be more intellectually challenging (to the extent its more challenging, its because of the workload and office politics, rather than deep dives into some novel issue, which biglaw firms don't do that much of).

[lavarman84]

Not helpful to you but doing foreign policy work and being a digital nomad is my dream, and I'm a US-based big law lawyer. Trade?

OP here.

Ha! So I am practicing employment law for a small plaintiff-side firm, not doing foreign policy. The digital nomad thing is a great experience, but I can only make so much progress in my career doing it. At some point I see in the not so distant future, visiting one more country will have less marginal utility than making a substantial jump in my career.

If you ever get the opportunity to work for a firm that lets you work from anywhere, definitely jump on it. I work 40 hrs a week and make half of what big law pays, but arguably work half as much as some in big law (depending on practice area).

Lots of trade offs. I wonder if the ideal scenario is getting big law in the USA and lateraling to an international firm in a place with many cool nearby countries.

OP, why biglaw? It sounds like you have a good thing where you are. I know you referred to biglaw as the "big leagues," but I'm not so sure you won't be disappointed when you actually experience it if that's your reasoning for doing it.

Hey OP Here. Totally ghosted this thread. Hopefully you see this. I will DM you. Can you tell me what your gut is as to why someone would be disappointed once landing big law. Keep in mind, I'd be hoping to enter as a mid-level associate.

I'd be the wrong person to ask for more details, OP. I summered in biglaw and realized it wasn't what I wanted to do. But if the big leagues to you means that you'll be working with people who are far more exacting when it comes to work product, biglaw will certainly be that. If you're thinking you'll be working on far more intellectually challenging, complex, and interesting cases, you may end up disappointed.

I also am assuming if you work at a small plaintiffs' shop that you're given cases to manage with a partner supervising in a fairly hands off way and have a lot of autonomy on how to run that case. (I might be wrong on that, though.) That's not something you're likely to have in biglaw. You'll be a cog in the machine.

If this was purely about making as much money as possible so you can retire young, I wouldn't advise you to reconsider your options. But it sounds like you have a pretty good gig, and I'm thinking you may not end up happy with the choice to move to biglaw if you make it for the reasons you've cited. That said, the most effective use of your time is speak with some people who are mid-levels in biglaw doing employment work. They'll be able to tell you specifically what to expect.