Cooley layoffs Forum

[RedNewJersey]

Unless you've got crazy leverage, most of the hours difference will shake out in the PPP, though, no? End of the day, they're doing layoffs to preserve whatever their PPP is, with the assumption being that the firm going from 2000 to 1600 has a lower PPP to begin with than the firm going 2300 to 1900.

It's of course true that it all comes out of PPP, but I'm just saying the decrease in PPP might be more intense for firms whose associates bill less during boom time. Think about it this way. Suppose associates break even at 600 billable hours. Moving from 2000-->1600 means profitable hours drop from 1400-->1000, or 33% (midpoint method: 400/1200=33%). Whereas, if you move from 2300-->1900, that's 1900-->1500, or 23.5% (midpoint method: 400/1700). The percentage drop in PPP would be higher (so avoiding layoffs would be more costly), for the firm with lower-hour associates. There's also just a sense that 1600 hours on average means many associates don't have enough work for a full-time job. That's not really true if it's 1900.

You could just say "they should just take less in PPP," but the pain would be more for some firms than others, which is a reason to think they'll do more intense layoffs.

Also, the fact that PPP is lower to begin with cuts both ways. True, it means you lose PPP less in absolute terms, but it also means you have less leeway before rainmakers leave for a better offer. If Cooley dropped to, like, $3M PPP, I think they'd lose partners.

[Anonymous User]

Disgraceful.

Even worse, this will open the floodgates for other firms to conduct mass layoffs that they can't possibly characterize as "performance". Nobody wants to be first, but with Cooley as first mover, others will jump on board, and it will become normalized in the next little bit. All eyes on K&E.

Lol of course there’s K&E shade being dropped into a thread about some other firm. K&E already did its layoffs back in September/October (which was discussed at great lengths all across the legal internet and media), but it was only 0.6% of the firm, not 9% like here. K&E isn’t tied to directly to tech (or any other particular industry for that matter) and is instead totally wrapped up in PE. If PE ever gets wrecked, K&E will get wrecked, but otherwise it’s more insulated from economic turmoil than firms that mostly serve actual companies (just like the PE clients are).

Also, while this thread is already derailed, notice the comments about how firms like Cooley spout lots of BS about their “culture” and how soft and friendly they are, but then turn around a screw you without a second thought during a downturn? This is what people like me have always tried to point out about K&E - you may not like their “we’re here to make money and you’re here to make us money” attitude but in reality it’s the exact same at every other law firm and at least K&E is honest about it.

*End derailment of Cooley thread*

Well, you can't just spout off a bunch of misinformation and declare "end of derailment". And its true, you can't get through a single TLS thread without some recent K&E lateral acting as apologist.

K&E did stealth layoffs back in sept/oct. So did Cooley. We are now, unfortunately, in a situation where, thanks to Cooley opening the floodgates, we are talking about shameless public layoffs.

I know for a fact not all of those K&E stealths were performance based. I also know for a fact lots of ppl are slow. I also know for a fact that one of their offices had a really scary in person mandatory meeting for certain practice groups where they had a "come to jesus" moment with their associates. You and I also know that K&E hired ppl who never would have been hired so that K&E can get every dollar during 2021. Diversification of practice areas is not a hedge against over-hiring.

I am not sure how the bolded helps your case. K&E threw up a middle finger in 2021 and hired anyone with a pulse - to get that money. You should be concerned about what K&E is willing to do in 2022 without the insane deal flow.

Different anon. The misinformation is coming from you, not him. All your "concerns" are irrelevant.
Kirkland laid off about two dozens associates, mostly across Texas offices in corporate, as part of the annual review cycle, and that's it. 2022 profits will be mildly up vs. 2021; we're doing swell over here. Cooley just laid off 10% of its workforce. The two are not the same. There is no "floodgate" being opened. I'm going to coin the term "Kirkland Derangement Syndrome" for some TLS posters who can't seem to get the firm out of their heads. Really it's astonishing that you're trying to make some sort of equivalence between the bloodbath that just happened at Cooley.

[Anonymous User]

Disgraceful.

Even worse, this will open the floodgates for other firms to conduct mass layoffs that they can't possibly characterize as "performance". Nobody wants to be first, but with Cooley as first mover, others will jump on board, and it will become normalized in the next little bit. All eyes on K&E.

Lol of course there’s K&E shade being dropped into a thread about some other firm. K&E already did its layoffs back in September/October (which was discussed at great lengths all across the legal internet and media), but it was only 0.6% of the firm, not 9% like here. K&E isn’t tied to directly to tech (or any other particular industry for that matter) and is instead totally wrapped up in PE. If PE ever gets wrecked, K&E will get wrecked, but otherwise it’s more insulated from economic turmoil than firms that mostly serve actual companies (just like the PE clients are).

Also, while this thread is already derailed, notice the comments about how firms like Cooley spout lots of BS about their “culture” and how soft and friendly they are, but then turn around a screw you without a second thought during a downturn? This is what people like me have always tried to point out about K&E - you may not like their “we’re here to make money and you’re here to make us money” attitude but in reality it’s the exact same at every other law firm and at least K&E is honest about it.

*End derailment of Cooley thread*

Well, you can't just spout off a bunch of misinformation and declare "end of derailment". And its true, you can't get through a single TLS thread without some recent K&E lateral acting as apologist.

K&E did stealth layoffs back in sept/oct. So did Cooley. We are now, unfortunately, in a situation where, thanks to Cooley opening the floodgates, we are talking about shameless public layoffs.

I know for a fact not all of those K&E stealths were performance based. I also know for a fact lots of ppl are slow. I also know for a fact that one of their offices had a really scary in person mandatory meeting for certain practice groups where they had a "come to jesus" moment with their associates. You and I also know that K&E hired ppl who never would have been hired so that K&E can get every dollar during 2021. Diversification of practice areas is not a hedge against over-hiring.

I am not sure how the bolded helps your case. K&E threw up a middle finger in 2021 and hired anyone with a pulse - to get that money. You should be concerned about what K&E is willing to do in 2022 without the insane deal flow.

Different anon. The misinformation is coming from you, not him. All your "concerns" are irrelevant.
Kirkland laid off about two dozens associates, mostly across Texas offices in corporate, as part of the annual review cycle, and that's it. 2022 profits will be mildly up vs. 2021; we're doing swell over here. Cooley just laid off 10% of its workforce. The two are not the same. There is no "floodgate" being opened. I'm going to coin the term "Kirkland Derangement Syndrome" for some TLS posters who can't seem to get the firm out of their heads. Really it's astonishing that you're trying to make some sort of equivalence between the bloodbath that just happened at Cooley.

If you are a different anon, how come you just gendered the other anon?

In any case, I look forward to bumping this post in a few months after K&E conducts layoffs.

[nixy]

If you are a different anon, how come you just gendered the other anon?

Oh for pity’s sake

[Anonymous User]

Disgraceful.

Even worse, this will open the floodgates for other firms to conduct mass layoffs that they can't possibly characterize as "performance". Nobody wants to be first, but with Cooley as first mover, others will jump on board, and it will become normalized in the next little bit. All eyes on K&E.

Lol of course there’s K&E shade being dropped into a thread about some other firm. K&E already did its layoffs back in September/October (which was discussed at great lengths all across the legal internet and media), but it was only 0.6% of the firm, not 9% like here. K&E isn’t tied to directly to tech (or any other particular industry for that matter) and is instead totally wrapped up in PE. If PE ever gets wrecked, K&E will get wrecked, but otherwise it’s more insulated from economic turmoil than firms that mostly serve actual companies (just like the PE clients are).

Also, while this thread is already derailed, notice the comments about how firms like Cooley spout lots of BS about their “culture” and how soft and friendly they are, but then turn around a screw you without a second thought during a downturn? This is what people like me have always tried to point out about K&E - you may not like their “we’re here to make money and you’re here to make us money” attitude but in reality it’s the exact same at every other law firm and at least K&E is honest about it.

*End derailment of Cooley thread*

Well, you can't just spout off a bunch of misinformation and declare "end of derailment". And its true, you can't get through a single TLS thread without some recent K&E lateral acting as apologist.

K&E did stealth layoffs back in sept/oct. So did Cooley. We are now, unfortunately, in a situation where, thanks to Cooley opening the floodgates, we are talking about shameless public layoffs.

I know for a fact not all of those K&E stealths were performance based. I also know for a fact lots of ppl are slow. I also know for a fact that one of their offices had a really scary in person mandatory meeting for certain practice groups where they had a "come to jesus" moment with their associates. You and I also know that K&E hired ppl who never would have been hired so that K&E can get every dollar during 2021. Diversification of practice areas is not a hedge against over-hiring.

I am not sure how the bolded helps your case. K&E threw up a middle finger in 2021 and hired anyone with a pulse - to get that money. You should be concerned about what K&E is willing to do in 2022 without the insane deal flow.

Different anon. The misinformation is coming from you, not him. All your "concerns" are irrelevant.
Kirkland laid off about two dozens associates, mostly across Texas offices in corporate, as part of the annual review cycle, and that's it. 2022 profits will be mildly up vs. 2021; we're doing swell over here. Cooley just laid off 10% of its workforce. The two are not the same. There is no "floodgate" being opened. I'm going to coin the term "Kirkland Derangement Syndrome" for some TLS posters who can't seem to get the firm out of their heads. Really it's astonishing that you're trying to make some sort of equivalence between the bloodbath that just happened at Cooley.

If you are a different anon, how come you just gendered the other anon?

In any case, I look forward to bumping this post in a few months after K&E conducts layoffs.

I have no idea what you're talking about re "gendered"; I am a different anon, there's no conspiracy, friend. Your commenting in this discussion has been uniformly unproductive, your desire for a "gotcha" in the form of a future announcement of mass layoffs by another firm is troubling, and, again, it's insane to try to equate cutting two dozen corp. associates in Texas to a 10% cut in a V50's workforce. Hope that helps.

[Anonymous User]

Disgraceful.

Even worse, this will open the floodgates for other firms to conduct mass layoffs that they can't possibly characterize as "performance". Nobody wants to be first, but with Cooley as first mover, others will jump on board, and it will become normalized in the next little bit. All eyes on K&E.

Lol of course there’s K&E shade being dropped into a thread about some other firm. K&E already did its layoffs back in September/October (which was discussed at great lengths all across the legal internet and media), but it was only 0.6% of the firm, not 9% like here. K&E isn’t tied to directly to tech (or any other particular industry for that matter) and is instead totally wrapped up in PE. If PE ever gets wrecked, K&E will get wrecked, but otherwise it’s more insulated from economic turmoil than firms that mostly serve actual companies (just like the PE clients are).

Also, while this thread is already derailed, notice the comments about how firms like Cooley spout lots of BS about their “culture” and how soft and friendly they are, but then turn around a screw you without a second thought during a downturn? This is what people like me have always tried to point out about K&E - you may not like their “we’re here to make money and you’re here to make us money” attitude but in reality it’s the exact same at every other law firm and at least K&E is honest about it.

*End derailment of Cooley thread*

Well, you can't just spout off a bunch of misinformation and declare "end of derailment". And its true, you can't get through a single TLS thread without some recent K&E lateral acting as apologist.

K&E did stealth layoffs back in sept/oct. So did Cooley. We are now, unfortunately, in a situation where, thanks to Cooley opening the floodgates, we are talking about shameless public layoffs.

I know for a fact not all of those K&E stealths were performance based. I also know for a fact lots of ppl are slow. I also know for a fact that one of their offices had a really scary in person mandatory meeting for certain practice groups where they had a "come to jesus" moment with their associates. You and I also know that K&E hired ppl who never would have been hired so that K&E can get every dollar during 2021. Diversification of practice areas is not a hedge against over-hiring.

I am not sure how the bolded helps your case. K&E threw up a middle finger in 2021 and hired anyone with a pulse - to get that money. You should be concerned about what K&E is willing to do in 2022 without the insane deal flow.

Lol K&E lives rent free in all of your guys heads.

I'm a 2021 lateral that came from a V5 - kinda offended that you think they just hired any random lawyer off the street. They paid a shit ton of money in lateral bonuses to get who they wanted.

Recently they laid off like 25 associates in a firm of 2500+ attorneys. Really silly to compare the two situations. This isn't to say they K&E won't have future layoffs or even mass layoffs in the future. They'll do whatever makes sense at the time to help their bottom line. However, the idea that their isn't a firm in the world out there that won't do the same is laughable. You are a revenue producer. The minute you don't produce revenue, you are just a cost center. That's it. It's not a family. It's not a culture. It's just arithmetic.

FWIW, I hated K&E before I got here because they ruined my weekends and were annoying AF to deal with from the other side. Now that I'm here, I realize that (i) the clients are the ones who push ridiculous shit 90% of the time and (ii) most of the anti-K&E propaganda that I believed in was pushed by my former firm. The head of my group called me when I put in my notice, offered to match K&E's signing bonus and told me K&E would work me to the bone if I went. Funny enough, I'm much happier and less stressed out than I've been in a long time.

I do get worked to the bone, but I also got worked to the bone at my previous firm.

Edit: To add to this, all layoffs are partially performance based layoffs. If you have to reduce your workforce by 10%, you fire the bottom 10%. If you have to reduce your workforce by 90%, you fire the bottom 90%. That doesn't indicate that the person who got fired is totally incompetent or wouldn't be successful to another firm. It just indicates they weren't valued by the firm firing them.

[Anonymous User]

Curious if anyone knows whether the associates who came in less were more likely to get laid off.

[Anonymous User]

Deleted

[Anonymous User]

Disgraceful.

Even worse, this will open the floodgates for other firms to conduct mass layoffs that they can't possibly characterize as "performance". Nobody wants to be first, but with Cooley as first mover, others will jump on board, and it will become normalized in the next little bit. All eyes on K&E.

Lol of course there’s K&E shade being dropped into a thread about some other firm. K&E already did its layoffs back in September/October (which was discussed at great lengths all across the legal internet and media), but it was only 0.6% of the firm, not 9% like here. K&E isn’t tied to directly to tech (or any other particular industry for that matter) and is instead totally wrapped up in PE. If PE ever gets wrecked, K&E will get wrecked, but otherwise it’s more insulated from economic turmoil than firms that mostly serve actual companies (just like the PE clients are).

Also, while this thread is already derailed, notice the comments about how firms like Cooley spout lots of BS about their “culture” and how soft and friendly they are, but then turn around a screw you without a second thought during a downturn? This is what people like me have always tried to point out about K&E - you may not like their “we’re here to make money and you’re here to make us money” attitude but in reality it’s the exact same at every other law firm and at least K&E is honest about it.

*End derailment of Cooley thread*

Well, you can't just spout off a bunch of misinformation and declare "end of derailment". And its true, you can't get through a single TLS thread without some recent K&E lateral acting as apologist.

K&E did stealth layoffs back in sept/oct. So did Cooley. We are now, unfortunately, in a situation where, thanks to Cooley opening the floodgates, we are talking about shameless public layoffs.

I know for a fact not all of those K&E stealths were performance based. I also know for a fact lots of ppl are slow. I also know for a fact that one of their offices had a really scary in person mandatory meeting for certain practice groups where they had a "come to jesus" moment with their associates. You and I also know that K&E hired ppl who never would have been hired so that K&E can get every dollar during 2021. Diversification of practice areas is not a hedge against over-hiring.

I am not sure how the bolded helps your case. K&E threw up a middle finger in 2021 and hired anyone with a pulse - to get that money. You should be concerned about what K&E is willing to do in 2022 without the insane deal flow.

Lol K&E lives rent free in all of your guys heads.

I'm a 2021 lateral that came from a V5 - kinda offended that you think they just hired any random lawyer off the street. They paid a shit ton of money in lateral bonuses to get who they wanted.

Recently they laid off like 25 associates in a firm of 2500+ attorneys. Really silly to compare the two situations. This isn't to say they K&E won't have future layoffs or even mass layoffs in the future. They'll do whatever makes sense at the time to help their bottom line. However, the idea that their isn't a firm in the world out there that won't do the same is laughable. You are a revenue producer. The minute you don't produce revenue, you are just a cost center. That's it. It's not a family. It's not a culture. It's just arithmetic.

FWIW, I hated K&E before I got here because they ruined my weekends and were annoying AF to deal with from the other side. Now that I'm here, I realize that (i) the clients are the ones who push ridiculous shit 90% of the time and (ii) most of the anti-K&E propaganda that I believed in was pushed by my former firm. The head of my group called me when I put in my notice, offered to match K&E's signing bonus and told me K&E would work me to the bone if I went. Funny enough, I'm much happier and less stressed out than I've been in a long time.

I do get worked to the bone, but I also got worked to the bone at my previous firm.

Edit: To add to this, all layoffs are partially performance based layoffs. If you have to reduce your workforce by 10%, you fire the bottom 10%. If you have to reduce your workforce by 90%, you fire the bottom 90%. That doesn't indicate that the person who got fired is totally incompetent or wouldn't be successful to another firm. It just indicates they weren't valued by the firm firing them.

Some things never change. After years, you still get upset Kirkland associates coping hard.

[Anonymous User]

Recently they laid off like 25 associates in a firm of 2500+ attorneys. Really silly to compare the two situations. This isn't to say they K&E won't have future layoffs or even mass layoffs in the future. They'll do whatever makes sense at the time to help their bottom line. However, the idea that their isn't a firm in the world out there that won't do the same is laughable. You are a revenue producer. The minute you don't produce revenue, you are just a cost center. That's it. It's not a family. It's not a culture. It's just arithmetic.

Felt like this was a PR/recruiting shill post from the start, then saw “their isn’t a firm …” and was convinced. Either that or the poster’s made the right move from the V5 to K&E - seems a much better fit, somehow.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Recently they laid off like 25 associates in a firm of 2500+ attorneys. Really silly to compare the two situations. This isn't to say they K&E won't have future layoffs or even mass layoffs in the future. They'll do whatever makes sense at the time to help their bottom line. However, the idea that their isn't a firm in the world out there that won't do the same is laughable. You are a revenue producer. The minute you don't produce revenue, you are just a cost center. That's it. It's not a family. It's not a culture. It's just arithmetic.

Felt like this was a PR/recruiting shill post from the start, then saw “their isn’t a firm …” and was convinced. Either that or the poster’s made the right move from the V5 to K&E - seems a much better fit, somehow.

Plus, that’s not exactly how biglaw works. Someone who goes on vacation for a week or has a slow month is a temporary cost center. The firm can’t fire people the moment they become a cost center, because it costs money to restaff existing matters and then in the next upturn it costs an arm and a leg to hire laterals

[Anonymous User]

For me I think the worst part of it is that I can imagine a conversation going on in the Cooley partnership where they're like maybe we should wait until after the holidays to not ruin the festive mood, but then a few partners piped up and said but then we have to pay them their bonuses so they opted to just do it now.

[Anonymous User]

For me I think the worst part of it is that I can imagine a conversation going on in the Cooley partnership where they're like maybe we should wait until after the holidays to not ruin the festive mood, but then a few partners piped up and said but then we have to pay them their bonuses so they opted to just do it now.

I thought bonus obligations were always couched with “at the firm’s discretion”. In any event, when I worked there Cooley didn’t pay bonuses until late February / early March, which was really annoying.

[Anonymous User]

The prediction from this theory is that, assuming Cooley tries in good faith to be more humane, it will be in a worse position during a downturn. The costs of keeping people would be higher for them than for firms like KE, meaning they are likely to cut more even if they were less ruthless (which, you know, is not clear).

I don’t know if they put in good faith effort or what, but Cooley was not particularly more humane hour-wise than its peer firms…

[Anonymous User]

Passed on an offer here a few months ago. Got the COOLEY CULTURE pitch super hard. It was pretty apparent how tech dependent the firm was (or at least it was pitched as an upside how cool and nifty the clients were).


Edit: I’m not super smart - just lucky

[Anonymous User]

Recently they laid off like 25 associates in a firm of 2500+ attorneys. Really silly to compare the two situations. This isn't to say they K&E won't have future layoffs or even mass layoffs in the future. They'll do whatever makes sense at the time to help their bottom line. However, the idea that their isn't a firm in the world out there that won't do the same is laughable. You are a revenue producer. The minute you don't produce revenue, you are just a cost center. That's it. It's not a family. It's not a culture. It's just arithmetic.

Felt like this was a PR/recruiting shill post from the start, then saw “their isn’t a firm …” and was convinced. Either that or the poster’s made the right move from the V5 to K&E - seems a much better fit, somehow.

Same OP, or the "shill". Yes, I misused "their", "there" and "they're". Really getting to the substance of the matter.

Also, previous poster completely missed my point about revenue generation vs. cost center. Obviously going on vacation or being temporarily slow doesn't mean you're now a cost center.

If the firm perceives that you will be perpetually slow because the market is bad or the firm is failing to garner business, then you will be let go. Those who are expected to be the slowest for the longest period of time will be let go first.

That is not unique to Cooley or Kirkland or Latham or wherever else. It's sad for the associates who got let go, and I hope they land on their feet.

My main point being that, culture is largely bullshit and I truly hope associates and law students stop falling for this culture nonsense. Even on this board, talking about how K&E is way worse than any other major biglaw firm tells me that you've fallen for the bullshit.

The decision should be "can this firm help me achieve my goals? If so, can I survive long enough to achieve those goals?"

However, this is pretty derailed from the point of the thread.

Personally, I think Cooley is making a colossal fucking mistake. Things are going to pick up and the labor force is getting smaller. Their labor force is now going to get even smaller than the average firm since no lateral/law student will want to touch them for awhile. It's much easier to swallow smaller profits for a year or two than it is to shoot yourself in the foot for 10 years. Can't comprehend this short sighted thinking unless their partnership is very old/close to retirement and doesn't give a shit about the future of the firm.

[Anonymous User]

How aggressive was Cooley’s share partner hiring? They seemed to be trying to add expensive partners and act like they could compete for mature pubco life and be the greatest firm from seed to $100 billion big Nasdaq daddy. Just wonder if the lambs are being put out to pasture because they have too many lions to feed in a bad year.

[Anonymous User]

How aggressive was Cooley’s share partner hiring? They seemed to be trying to add expensive partners and act like they could compete for mature pubco life and be the greatest firm from seed to $100 billion big Nasdaq daddy. Just wonder if the lambs are being put out to pasture because they have too many lions to feed in a bad year.

It's known, especially in markets where they were trying to expand, that they were luring questionable senior associates / junior (non-equity) partners from other firms with equity--not applying much diligence or worrying too much about book or business potential.