OCI/EIP redo possible? Forum

[krhhh34]

For a student who struck out at T14 despite high grades (bid DC) what would be the downsides of adding a degree to redo recruiting. Let’s say MBA at a school like Harvard, Columbia, Penn, UVA, Cal or even tax/securities LLM at Georgetown. Obviously financial and opportunity costs, but that’s possibly outweighed bc of the non-firm alternative, especially if you’re not paying some or all in loans? Thinking would be that a four year program gives another shot at summer slots.

[ignorantfoot96]

For a student who struck out at T14 despite high grades (bid DC) what would be the downsides of adding a degree to redo recruiting. Let’s say MBA at a school like Harvard, Columbia, Penn, UVA, Cal or even tax/securities LLM at Georgetown. Obviously financial and opportunity costs, but that’s possibly outweighed bc of the non-firm alternative, especially if you’re not paying some or all in loans? Thinking would be that a four year program gives another shot at summer slots.

I think you would be better off trying to do 3L recruiting than pursuing an MBA. However, if you could do a tax LLM at Georgetown or NYU then it might be a way to try again with an OCI like thing. I would recommend reaching out to NYC firms and trying your luck there. DC is incredibly difficult even for T-14 grads and it's why career services usually recommend mixing up NYC and DC bids to reduce chance of strikeout.

[nealric]

For a student who struck out at T14 despite high grades (bid DC) what would be the downsides of adding a degree to redo recruiting. Let’s say MBA at a school like Harvard, Columbia, Penn, UVA, Cal or even tax/securities LLM at Georgetown. Obviously financial and opportunity costs, but that’s possibly outweighed bc of the non-firm alternative, especially if you’re not paying some or all in loans? Thinking would be that a four year program gives another shot at summer slots.

You won't get a true second bite at the apple by doing this. Georgetown and NYU tax LLMs do a "OCI" type event, but it's not nearly as robust as 2L OCI at those same schools (and there are a lot more accounting firm offers given than Biglaw). It's probably only marginally better than 3L OCI. Obviously, MBA OCI would be a different kettle of fish entirely.

My advise would be to only go these routes if that's what you really want in a career. If you've decided you really want to be a tax lawyer, then by all means do an LLM. If you've decided you'd rather be a management consultant or banker, by all means do an MBA. But don't enroll in these programs just because you want another session of on-campus recruiting.

Given your academic background, it's not totally impossible to work your way into biglaw through the backdoor even if 3L hiring is a bust. A bigfed, midlaw, or a boutique that practices in a biglaw-adjacent practice area would put you in a position to eventually lateral into biglaw.

Obviously, there are no guarantees, but no reason not to try 3L OCI with a wider geographic net. NYC is a much easier market than DC for entry-level hiring. And even if you want DC long-term, it's easier to get in as an NYC biglaw lateral than most non-biglaw laterals.

[krhhh34]

DC is incredibly difficult even for T-14 grads and it's why career services usually recommend mixing up NYC and DC bids to reduce chance of strikeout.
[/quote]

I actually switched from bidding a bunch of NYC firms as back ups to less grade-sensitive DC firms because career services told me I should do that if I wanted to be in DC. Hence why I am on the internet instead of asking career services about a four-year MBA program. At my school, I know I could participate in OCI/EIP again with 2Ls (and, of course, I could direct apply online pre-OCI, which I wish I had done in June anyway).

[Anonymous User]

I struck out at OCI from a T-14 for a 2015 summer associate gig in SF/SV/Seattle, but I was able to get a SA for that same summer in SV by applying to openings that popped up at my career services office over the next few months. It may have also helped that I added on some internships. Obviously the market is different right now, but I would focus my attention there right now and then 3L OCI if you really want biglaw above all else.

[krhhh34]

I struck out at OCI from a T-14 for a 2015 summer associate gig in SF/SV/Seattle, but I was able to get a SA for that same summer in SV by applying to openings that popped up at my career services office over the next few months. It may have also helped that I added on some internships. Obviously the market is different right now, but I would focus my attention there right now and then 3L OCI if you really want biglaw above all else.

I have been doing this and recently had a CB after which I was told the firm wanted to but couldn't extend an offer due to economic conditions. Made me very concerned for 3L recruiting—it seems a four-year MBA would majorly reduce risk, albeit with a financial cost, but I am risk-averse now.

[Anonymous User]

I struck out at OCI from a T-14 for a 2015 summer associate gig in SF/SV/Seattle, but I was able to get a SA for that same summer in SV by applying to openings that popped up at my career services office over the next few months. It may have also helped that I added on some internships. Obviously the market is different right now, but I would focus my attention there right now and then 3L OCI if you really want biglaw above all else.

I have been doing this and recently had a CB after which I was told the firm wanted to but couldn't extend an offer due to economic conditions. Made me very concerned for 3L recruiting—it seems a four-year MBA would majorly reduce risk, albeit with a financial cost, but I am risk-averse now.

Same anon as above. Then I would second Nealric's advice, you should only go that route if you're sure you would be at least as happy in a business role in banking/mgmt consulting/etc. as you would in biglaw.

[krhhh34]

I struck out at OCI from a T-14 for a 2015 summer associate gig in SF/SV/Seattle, but I was able to get a SA for that same summer in SV by applying to openings that popped up at my career services office over the next few months. It may have also helped that I added on some internships. Obviously the market is different right now, but I would focus my attention there right now and then 3L OCI if you really want biglaw above all else.

I have been doing this and recently had a CB after which I was told the firm wanted to but couldn't extend an offer due to economic conditions. Made me very concerned for 3L recruiting—it seems a four-year MBA would majorly reduce risk, albeit with a financial cost, but I am risk-averse now.

Same anon as above. Then I would second Nealric's advice, you should only go that route if you're sure you would be at least as happy in a business role in banking/mgmt consulting/etc. as you would in biglaw.

Why? I can still pursue big law with a JD/MBA. I could even participate in OCI next year for big law. This is why I am looking into four-year paths.

See here for the type of program: https://www.law.columbia.edu/academics/ ... ba-program

[Anonymous User]

Probably easier to get a second bite through either of 2 approaches

(1) continue doing well and apply for clerkships. If you are that high in your class at a T14, you have a good shot at district and potentially appellate. Post-clerkship hiring is quasi-comparable to OCI (firms mail chambers asking people to apply, and also just hold open hiring positions on website)

(2) 3L EIP/recruiting. I know a bunch of people who re-recruited at the end of their 2L summer and ended up getting offers. This might be somewhat economy dependent, but it seemed like a lot of firms were offering people.

[krhhh34]

Probably easier to get a second bite through either of 2 approaches

(1) continue doing well and apply for clerkships. If you are that high in your class at a T14, you have a good shot at district and potentially appellate. Post-clerkship hiring is quasi-comparable to OCI (firms mail chambers asking people to apply, and also just hold open hiring positions on website)

(2) 3L EIP/recruiting. I know a bunch of people who re-recruited at the end of their 2L summer and ended up getting offers. This might be somewhat economy dependent, but it seemed like a lot of firms were offering people.

Thank you. I am at a school where class rank is very unclear but I have high but not super high grades (probably top 10-20%). My concerns are
1) It seems much easier to get a clerkship one year out from graduation, and I am not confident I could secure one immediately post-grad. I would still have to find a post-grad job, and 3L hiring seems nonexistent for litigation. I would 100% do this if it weren't for the fact that so many judges hire on far out timelines now.
2) So economy dependent and uncertain that I lean toward paying the extra year of tuition with the hope of having more control over practice area (even something like financial regulatory with JD/MBA) and location.

[Anonymous User]

Probably easier to get a second bite through either of 2 approaches

(1) continue doing well and apply for clerkships. If you are that high in your class at a T14, you have a good shot at district and potentially appellate. Post-clerkship hiring is quasi-comparable to OCI (firms mail chambers asking people to apply, and also just hold open hiring positions on website)

(2) 3L EIP/recruiting. I know a bunch of people who re-recruited at the end of their 2L summer and ended up getting offers. This might be somewhat economy dependent, but it seemed like a lot of firms were offering people.

Thank you. I am at a school where class rank is very unclear but I have high but not super high grades (probably top 10-20%). My concerns are
1) It seems much easier to get a clerkship one year out from graduation, and I am not confident I could secure one immediately post-grad. I would still have to find a post-grad job, and 3L hiring seems nonexistent for litigation. I would 100% do this if it weren't for the fact that so many judges hire on far out timelines now.
2) So economy dependent and uncertain that I lean toward paying the extra year of tuition with the hope of having more control over practice area (even something like financial regulatory with JD/MBA) and location.

If you're top 20% at HLS and struck out in DC I'd also recommend doing interview practice before whatever you do next.

[krhhh34]

Probably easier to get a second bite through either of 2 approaches

(1) continue doing well and apply for clerkships. If you are that high in your class at a T14, you have a good shot at district and potentially appellate. Post-clerkship hiring is quasi-comparable to OCI (firms mail chambers asking people to apply, and also just hold open hiring positions on website)

(2) 3L EIP/recruiting. I know a bunch of people who re-recruited at the end of their 2L summer and ended up getting offers. This might be somewhat economy dependent, but it seemed like a lot of firms were offering people.

Thank you. I am at a school where class rank is very unclear but I have high but not super high grades (probably top 10-20%). My concerns are
1) It seems much easier to get a clerkship one year out from graduation, and I am not confident I could secure one immediately post-grad. I would still have to find a post-grad job, and 3L hiring seems nonexistent for litigation. I would 100% do this if it weren't for the fact that so many judges hire on far out timelines now.
2) So economy dependent and uncertain that I lean toward paying the extra year of tuition with the hope of having more control over practice area (even something like financial regulatory with JD/MBA) and location.

If you're top 20% at HLS and struck out in DC I'd also recommend doing interview practice before whatever you do next.

Thanks. My interviewing definitely started out a little rocky in screeners but I pivoted quickly after realizing what I was doing wrong, unfortunately it still meant fewer callbacks than I would've liked. Let's say it's HLS/HBS, SLS/GSB, Penn/Wharton, do you think the MBA program would be attractive enough to not make employers really question the decision/see it as a red flag?

[nealric]

I struck out at OCI from a T-14 for a 2015 summer associate gig in SF/SV/Seattle, but I was able to get a SA for that same summer in SV by applying to openings that popped up at my career services office over the next few months. It may have also helped that I added on some internships. Obviously the market is different right now, but I would focus my attention there right now and then 3L OCI if you really want biglaw above all else.

I have been doing this and recently had a CB after which I was told the firm wanted to but couldn't extend an offer due to economic conditions. Made me very concerned for 3L recruiting—it seems a four-year MBA would majorly reduce risk, albeit with a financial cost, but I am risk-averse now.

Same anon as above. Then I would second Nealric's advice, you should only go that route if you're sure you would be at least as happy in a business role in banking/mgmt consulting/etc. as you would in biglaw.

Why? I can still pursue big law with a JD/MBA. I could even participate in OCI next year for big law. This is why I am looking into four-year paths.

See here for the type of program: https://www.law.columbia.edu/academics/ ... ba-program

That wasn't entirely clear from your OP. I thought you were talking about applying to B-school separately and going to B-school OCI. If a joint MBA gives you a true shot at 2L OCI, then perhaps its worth considering if you are looking at a corporate practice and can do the MBA with just an extra year at the same institution. However, be prepared for a compelling story for why you signed on for the MBA other than "I struck out at OCI and wanted another shot."

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Probably easier to get a second bite through either of 2 approaches

(1) continue doing well and apply for clerkships. If you are that high in your class at a T14, you have a good shot at district and potentially appellate. Post-clerkship hiring is quasi-comparable to OCI (firms mail chambers asking people to apply, and also just hold open hiring positions on website)

(2) 3L EIP/recruiting. I know a bunch of people who re-recruited at the end of their 2L summer and ended up getting offers. This might be somewhat economy dependent, but it seemed like a lot of firms were offering people.

Thank you. I am at a school where class rank is very unclear but I have high but not super high grades (probably top 10-20%). My concerns are
1) It seems much easier to get a clerkship one year out from graduation, and I am not confident I could secure one immediately post-grad. I would still have to find a post-grad job, and 3L hiring seems nonexistent for litigation. I would 100% do this if it weren't for the fact that so many judges hire on far out timelines now.
2) So economy dependent and uncertain that I lean toward paying the extra year of tuition with the hope of having more control over practice area (even something like financial regulatory with JD/MBA) and location.

If you're top 20% at HLS and struck out in DC I'd also recommend doing interview practice before whatever you do next.

Thanks. My interviewing definitely started out a little rocky in screeners but I pivoted quickly after realizing what I was doing wrong, unfortunately it still meant fewer callbacks than I would've liked. Let's say it's HLS/HBS, SLS/GSB, Penn/Wharton, do you think the MBA program would be attractive enough to not make employers really question the decision/see it as a red flag?

if you can get accepted to Harvard, Stanford or Wharton for MBA, do that and don't be a lawyer. But that plan only really works IMO if your parents paid for law school. If you already have major loans, my advice is to get a job as a laywer.

[krhhh34]

I struck out at OCI from a T-14 for a 2015 summer associate gig in SF/SV/Seattle, but I was able to get a SA for that same summer in SV by applying to openings that popped up at my career services office over the next few months. It may have also helped that I added on some internships. Obviously the market is different right now, but I would focus my attention there right now and then 3L OCI if you really want biglaw above all else.

I have been doing this and recently had a CB after which I was told the firm wanted to but couldn't extend an offer due to economic conditions. Made me very concerned for 3L recruiting—it seems a four-year MBA would majorly reduce risk, albeit with a financial cost, but I am risk-averse now.

Same anon as above. Then I would second Nealric's advice, you should only go that route if you're sure you would be at least as happy in a business role in banking/mgmt consulting/etc. as you would in biglaw.

Why? I can still pursue big law with a JD/MBA. I could even participate in OCI next year for big law. This is why I am looking into four-year paths.

See here for the type of program: https://www.law.columbia.edu/academics/ ... ba-program

That wasn't entirely clear from your OP. I thought you were talking about applying to B-school separately and going to B-school OCI. If a joint MBA gives you a true shot at 2L OCI, then perhaps its worth considering if you are looking at a corporate practice and can do the MBA with just an extra year at the same institution. However, be prepared for a compelling story for why you signed on for the MBA other than "I struck out at OCI and wanted another shot."

Thanks—I understand that not every school has integrated programs so now I understand the "do you want to be a lawyer" comments. I do want to be a lawyer, I just don't want to end up underemployed. I was originally litigation-focused but I have been questioning that choice lately and I would be open to a corporate or financial regulatory practice now.

[Lawman1865]

I struck out at OCI from a T-14 for a 2015 summer associate gig in SF/SV/Seattle, but I was able to get a SA for that same summer in SV by applying to openings that popped up at my career services office over the next few months. It may have also helped that I added on some internships. Obviously the market is different right now, but I would focus my attention there right now and then 3L OCI if you really want biglaw above all else.

I have been doing this and recently had a CB after which I was told the firm wanted to but couldn't extend an offer due to economic conditions. Made me very concerned for 3L recruiting—it seems a four-year MBA would majorly reduce risk, albeit with a financial cost, but I am risk-averse now.

Same anon as above. Then I would second Nealric's advice, you should only go that route if you're sure you would be at least as happy in a business role in banking/mgmt consulting/etc. as you would in biglaw.

Why? I can still pursue big law with a JD/MBA. I could even participate in OCI next year for big law. This is why I am looking into four-year paths.

See here for the type of program: https://www.law.columbia.edu/academics/ ... ba-program

That wasn't entirely clear from your OP. I thought you were talking about applying to B-school separately and going to B-school OCI. If a joint MBA gives you a true shot at 2L OCI, then perhaps its worth considering if you are looking at a corporate practice and can do the MBA with just an extra year at the same institution. However, be prepared for a compelling story for why you signed on for the MBA other than "I struck out at OCI and wanted another shot."

Thanks—I understand that not every school has integrated programs so now I understand the "do you want to be a lawyer" comments. I do want to be a lawyer, I just don't want to end up underemployed. I was originally litigation-focused but I have been questioning that choice lately and I would be open to a corporate or financial regulatory practice now.

I kind of understand what you are getting at OP. I knew a few JD/MBA students, although none necessarily that started that blended program after their 2L year. At the end of the day, you are the one spending the time and spending the money on the additional program (and working to get into that program). I think it is entirely possible that you go this route, take a second bite a year from now and do well (perhaps the market is doing well, you have improved your interviewing skills, and bid realistically), so I actually don't think it is a bad idea necessarily. As an anecdote though, I knew somebody who struck out 2L and for an (actually) separate reason, needed to take a year off. He returned and took another bite at the apple and struck out again (possibly due to grades, but I think people may have questioned the year off + trying again at OCI). This is just an anecdote, but I guess the point is, understand that there is a chance you to this, get the MBA/pay the extra money and get the same result (although I guess there is an element of risk in anything we do).

[krhhh34]

I struck out at OCI from a T-14 for a 2015 summer associate gig in SF/SV/Seattle, but I was able to get a SA for that same summer in SV by applying to openings that popped up at my career services office over the next few months. It may have also helped that I added on some internships. Obviously the market is different right now, but I would focus my attention there right now and then 3L OCI if you really want biglaw above all else.

I have been doing this and recently had a CB after which I was told the firm wanted to but couldn't extend an offer due to economic conditions. Made me very concerned for 3L recruiting—it seems a four-year MBA would majorly reduce risk, albeit with a financial cost, but I am risk-averse now.

Same anon as above. Then I would second Nealric's advice, you should only go that route if you're sure you would be at least as happy in a business role in banking/mgmt consulting/etc. as you would in biglaw.

Why? I can still pursue big law with a JD/MBA. I could even participate in OCI next year for big law. This is why I am looking into four-year paths.

See here for the type of program: https://www.law.columbia.edu/academics/ ... ba-program

That wasn't entirely clear from your OP. I thought you were talking about applying to B-school separately and going to B-school OCI. If a joint MBA gives you a true shot at 2L OCI, then perhaps its worth considering if you are looking at a corporate practice and can do the MBA with just an extra year at the same institution. However, be prepared for a compelling story for why you signed on for the MBA other than "I struck out at OCI and wanted another shot."

Thanks—I understand that not every school has integrated programs so now I understand the "do you want to be a lawyer" comments. I do want to be a lawyer, I just don't want to end up underemployed. I was originally litigation-focused but I have been questioning that choice lately and I would be open to a corporate or financial regulatory practice now.

I kind of understand what you are getting at OP. I knew a few JD/MBA students, although none necessarily that started that blended program after their 2L year. At the end of the day, you are the one spending the time and spending the money on the additional program (and working to get into that program). I think it is entirely possible that you go this route, take a second bite a year from now and do well (perhaps the market is doing well, you have improved your interviewing skills, and bid realistically), so I actually don't think it is a bad idea necessarily. As an anecdote though, I knew somebody who struck out 2L and for an (actually) separate reason, needed to take a year off. He returned and took another bite at the apple and struck out again (possibly due to grades, but I think people may have questioned the year off + trying again at OCI). This is just an anecdote, but I guess the point is, understand that there is a chance you to this, get the MBA/pay the extra money and get the same result (although I guess there is an element of risk in anything we do).

Thank you for your thoughts. There is certainly an element of risk in anything. I would hope that an MBA is not viewed the same as a year off—this is why I am considering the MBA and not some other random master's program (which would probably be significantly less work to get into and could also result in an extra year).

[mardash]

To Nealric’s point, this is definitely going to look more natural if you’re applying to corporate roles. It will be confusing if you’re applying for litigation roles. But from reading the thread it seems you’re pretty set on this and it’s not a terrible idea if for no other reason than this is a bad year for biglaw recruiting.

ETA: also because school is more fun than working

[krhhh34]

To Nealric’s point, this is definitely going to look more natural if you’re applying to corporate roles. It will be confusing if you’re applying for litigation roles. But from reading the thread it seems you’re pretty set on this and it’s not a terrible idea if for no other reason than this is a bad year for biglaw recruiting.

ETA: also because school is more fun than working

Thank you. I don't mean to come off as already set on this, I just understand why this idea prompts a knee-jerk negative reaction. When you say bad year, do you mean this past summer for 2L recruiting or the year ahead for 3L recruiting?

[mardash]

On a relative scale versus a better year, both, but traditionally 3L recruiting broadly speaking is more specific to individual departments’ hiring needs so I could see the direction of the badness being worse for 3L recruiting. But that’s just speculation.

[krhhh34]

To Nealric’s point, this is definitely going to look more natural if you’re applying to corporate roles. It will be confusing if you’re applying for litigation roles. But from reading the thread it seems you’re pretty set on this and it’s not a terrible idea if for no other reason than this is a bad year for biglaw recruiting.

ETA: also because school is more fun than working

Last question—do you have suggestions on what I could do this summer to help it make sense? SEC?

[mardash]

Apply broadly and then once you get through the process and get an offer you can make that call. SEC would be as an great option as any I think. What did you do your 1L summer?

[krhhh34]

Apply broadly and then once you get through the process and get an offer you can make that call. SEC would be as an great option as any I think. What did you do your 1L summer?

The specific job might be a bit too much information to post on the internet, but it was related to corporate and litigation work. Not in DC. I am a bit stuck on what else I should apply to now other than the financial regulatory agencies. My career services office said it doesn't matter what I do for 3L recruiting "as long as it involves research and writing" but I find that hard to believe.

[Rule23andMe]

Apply broadly and then once you get through the process and get an offer you can make that call. SEC would be as an great option as any I think. What did you do your 1L summer?

The specific job might be a bit too much information to post on the internet, but it was related to corporate and litigation work. Not in DC. I am a bit stuck on what else I should apply to now other than the financial regulatory agencies. My career services office said it doesn't matter what I do for 3L recruiting "as long as it involves research and writing" but I find that hard to believe.

If you can swing an agency job for 2L summer, why not do that immediately post-grad too? Gets you to DC and you'll easily be able to exit to a firm job after a few years if that's your goal (among the many other good reasons to go into gov!).
Suppose that's a personal decision but would be my plan A in your shoes (plan B being do gov for 2L summer then 3L recruiting, plan C being the MBA route if you don't get a 2L gov gig)

[krhhh34]

Apply broadly and then once you get through the process and get an offer you can make that call. SEC would be as an great option as any I think. What did you do your 1L summer?

The specific job might be a bit too much information to post on the internet, but it was related to corporate and litigation work. Not in DC. I am a bit stuck on what else I should apply to now other than the financial regulatory agencies. My career services office said it doesn't matter what I do for 3L recruiting "as long as it involves research and writing" but I find that hard to believe.

If you can swing an agency job for 2L summer, why not do that immediately post-grad too? Gets you to DC and you'll easily be able to exit to a firm job after a few years if that's your goal (among the many other good reasons to go into gov!).
Suppose that's a personal decision but would be my plan A in your shoes (plan B being do gov for 2L summer then 3L recruiting, plan C being the MBA route if you don't get a 2L gov gig)

I would love to do this but government is extremely competitive for entry-level hires and my perception was that getting an agency job for 2L summer (even somewhere with honors programs like CFPB, SEC, DOJ) is unlikely to lead to an entry-level position. Unfortunately I would have to apply to dual degree programs in the coming months, so it can't really be a fallback in that way.