Saying no as a midlevel Forum

[Anonymous User]

This is not another quiet quitting thread. I'm a midlevel in a specialty area of litigation at a V25. I generally like what I do and don't mind working long/odd hours (never fallen below 2600). But as I become more senior I find it harder and harder to manage my workload. As a junior, I would get "assignments" from seniors/partners that I could always say no to if I was truly under water. I have no problem doing that, and my colleagues trust me when I say I'm too busy.

But I now find myself responsible for larger parts of cases (either on my own or managing a small group of juniors) for which there are simply not enough hours in the day/week/month to do it alone (or at least to do them right). I have no problems saying no to new matters, but it's the ones I'm already on that I'm struggling with. Nobody tells me what to do to meet a deadline (or even that it's mine to meet) - it's on me to make sure it gets done. I used to be able to power through anything put on my plate, but I simply can't do it all and I have a hard time asking for help.

There's an obvious answer here: I need to get better at : pushing work down, managing juniors, staffing matters, and planning ahead. So I'm wondering if anybody has some anecdotes/tips that helped them learn these skills faster. What does "saying no" look like to you as you become more senior and take on more responsibility?

[attorney589753]

It's sneaky hard and people don't talk about it much. Long term taking on everything yourself isn't sustainable. You might need a variety of tactics. One thing is to make sure you stop the bleeding by not accepting any new matters or work until you go comfortably under, and always budget in "extra" time for matters that spiral a bit. You could also do a self-assessment of whether your matters are all adequately staffed, and do you have the right quality of junior associates on your matters. We all know that all third year associates aren't created equal, and if you have a bad associate it can involve micromanaging which isn't feasible given your work load. Another suggestion (probably more controversial and depends on your firm) is that you are reaching the stage of the career where you also have to "manage up" — occasionally telling superiors that you can handle X and Y but need them to take of Z. And, to the extent that isn't working, actively managing expectations that while normally you could complete task X by date A, due to your other matters it won't happen until later, or maybe even that you need a certain matter "overstaffed" in order to allow you to meet the deadlines.

[Anonymous User]

It's sneaky hard and people don't talk about it much. Long term taking on everything yourself isn't sustainable. You might need a variety of tactics. One thing is to make sure you stop the bleeding by not accepting any new matters or work until you go comfortably under, and always budget in "extra" time for matters that spiral a bit. You could also do a self-assessment of whether your matters are all adequately staffed, and do you have the right quality of junior associates on your matters. We all know that all third year associates aren't created equal, and if you have a bad associate it can involve micromanaging which isn't feasible given your work load. Another suggestion (probably more controversial and depends on your firm) is that you are reaching the stage of the career where you also have to "manage up" — occasionally telling superiors that you can handle X and Y but need them to take of Z. And, to the extent that isn't working, actively managing expectations that while normally you could complete task X by date A, due to your other matters it won't happen until later, or maybe even that you need a certain matter "overstaffed" in order to allow you to meet the deadlines.

This is really helpful. Any tips on signaling to partners that I'll need their help? I've asked a handful of times, but mostly only out of desperation.

[attorney589753]

It's sneaky hard and people don't talk about it much. Long term taking on everything yourself isn't sustainable. You might need a variety of tactics. One thing is to make sure you stop the bleeding by not accepting any new matters or work until you go comfortably under, and always budget in "extra" time for matters that spiral a bit. You could also do a self-assessment of whether your matters are all adequately staffed, and do you have the right quality of junior associates on your matters. We all know that all third year associates aren't created equal, and if you have a bad associate it can involve micromanaging which isn't feasible given your work load. Another suggestion (probably more controversial and depends on your firm) is that you are reaching the stage of the career where you also have to "manage up" — occasionally telling superiors that you can handle X and Y but need them to take of Z. And, to the extent that isn't working, actively managing expectations that while normally you could complete task X by date A, due to your other matters it won't happen until later, or maybe even that you need a certain matter "overstaffed" in order to allow you to meet the deadlines.

This is really helpful. Any tips on signaling to partners that I'll need their help? I've asked a handful of times, but mostly only out of desperation.

Yes, a few tips. First, try not to do it in a moment of desperation, but rather a moment of calmness (so spend an hour on the weekend organizing your thoughts and notes together). Second, try to make your notes as specific and actionable as possible; most partners (for better or worse) probably don't care how you "feel" but understand the work has to get divided up and done. Underlying both of these points is you need to be direct and clear about it, not casual, and try to tie it back to desired client outcomes — you are looking for solutions to deliver quality client work. Third, at many firms (don't know about yours) they probably have actually bad midlevels, so try to drop your guilt about asking for help — you're not ignoring them, you're being proactive. (Similar to if a good junior associate asked you for help, you're not judging them.) We've been implicitly taught in our careers not to ask for help, but you are adding value to them and the firm by extending your ability to stay there long-term.

[Anonymous User]

This is not another quiet quitting thread. I'm a midlevel in a specialty area of litigation at a V25. I generally like what I do and don't mind working long/odd hours (never fallen below 2600). But as I become more senior I find it harder and harder to manage my workload. As a junior, I would get "assignments" from seniors/partners that I could always say no to if I was truly under water. I have no problem doing that, and my colleagues trust me when I say I'm too busy.

But I now find myself responsible for larger parts of cases (either on my own or managing a small group of juniors) for which there are simply not enough hours in the day/week/month to do it alone (or at least to do them right). I have no problems saying no to new matters, but it's the ones I'm already on that I'm struggling with. Nobody tells me what to do to meet a deadline (or even that it's mine to meet) - it's on me to make sure it gets done. I used to be able to power through anything put on my plate, but I simply can't do it all and I have a hard time asking for help.

There's an obvious answer here: I need to get better at : pushing work down, managing juniors, staffing matters, and planning ahead. So I'm wondering if anybody has some anecdotes/tips that helped them learn these skills faster. What does "saying no" look like to you as you become more senior and take on more responsibility?

Dude - what? You're taking on more work even when pacing 2600 hours?

I generally just start to say no when I'm starting to pace at 200 hours/month. I figured 200 is my breaking point where I can sustain that for like several months in a row without feeling terrible but anymore and I just can't.

[Anonymous User]

This is not another quiet quitting thread. I'm a midlevel in a specialty area of litigation at a V25. I generally like what I do and don't mind working long/odd hours (never fallen below 2600). But as I become more senior I find it harder and harder to manage my workload. As a junior, I would get "assignments" from seniors/partners that I could always say no to if I was truly under water. I have no problem doing that, and my colleagues trust me when I say I'm too busy.

But I now find myself responsible for larger parts of cases (either on my own or managing a small group of juniors) for which there are simply not enough hours in the day/week/month to do it alone (or at least to do them right). I have no problems saying no to new matters, but it's the ones I'm already on that I'm struggling with. Nobody tells me what to do to meet a deadline (or even that it's mine to meet) - it's on me to make sure it gets done. I used to be able to power through anything put on my plate, but I simply can't do it all and I have a hard time asking for help.

There's an obvious answer here: I need to get better at : pushing work down, managing juniors, staffing matters, and planning ahead. So I'm wondering if anybody has some anecdotes/tips that helped them learn these skills faster. What does "saying no" look like to you as you become more senior and take on more responsibility?

Dude - what? You're taking on more work even when pacing 2600 hours?

I generally just start to say no when I'm starting to pace at 200 hours/month. I figured 200 is my breaking point where I can sustain that for like several months in a row without feeling terrible but anymore and I just can't.

I think my point was that it's not so simple. I'm not "taking on more work." I haven't said yes to a new case in months. The problem is that I have responsibility for a case (or certain parts of a case), so anything that comes up on that is presumptively mine to deal with. Nobody says "can you help with X" - they just expect me to do it. I can't say no when nobody asks.

[randomthrowaway]

This is not another quiet quitting thread. I'm a midlevel in a specialty area of litigation at a V25. I generally like what I do and don't mind working long/odd hours (never fallen below 2600). But as I become more senior I find it harder and harder to manage my workload. As a junior, I would get "assignments" from seniors/partners that I could always say no to if I was truly under water. I have no problem doing that, and my colleagues trust me when I say I'm too busy.

But I now find myself responsible for larger parts of cases (either on my own or managing a small group of juniors) for which there are simply not enough hours in the day/week/month to do it alone (or at least to do them right). I have no problems saying no to new matters, but it's the ones I'm already on that I'm struggling with. Nobody tells me what to do to meet a deadline (or even that it's mine to meet) - it's on me to make sure it gets done. I used to be able to power through anything put on my plate, but I simply can't do it all and I have a hard time asking for help.

There's an obvious answer here: I need to get better at : pushing work down, managing juniors, staffing matters, and planning ahead. So I'm wondering if anybody has some anecdotes/tips that helped them learn these skills faster. What does "saying no" look like to you as you become more senior and take on more responsibility?

Dude - what? You're taking on more work even when pacing 2600 hours?

I generally just start to say no when I'm starting to pace at 200 hours/month. I figured 200 is my breaking point where I can sustain that for like several months in a row without feeling terrible but anymore and I just can't.

I think my point was that it's not so simple. I'm not "taking on more work." I haven't said yes to a new case in months. The problem is that I have responsibility for a case (or certain parts of a case), so anything that comes up on that is presumptively mine to deal with. Nobody says "can you help with X" - they just expect me to do it. I can't say no when nobody asks.

You have to learn to delegate. It's that simple. I had issues with delegating as well because I could just do the work quicker than it would take to bring someone up to speed and review/revise. But when you get more and more senior and have more responsibility on your plate, it's not possible to do everything yourself. And, while yes, there will be some growing pains as you delegate more and maybe it means more hours for you in the short run. But when those juniors learn how to do that stuff, your qualify of life improves immensely. Then there is a massive time savings for you, and time spent reviewing/revising is frankly easier than drafting from scratch. As for tips on how to delegate, I'm not sure there's a lot of magic to it other than to just delegate as much as you can. Any time I get a new project, I staff a junior on it so that junior is up to speed from day one and that saves time down the line. Since you have existing projects going on, just carve off whatever you can and get other people involved.

[Anonymous User]

This is not another quiet quitting thread. I'm a midlevel in a specialty area of litigation at a V25. I generally like what I do and don't mind working long/odd hours (never fallen below 2600). But as I become more senior I find it harder and harder to manage my workload. As a junior, I would get "assignments" from seniors/partners that I could always say no to if I was truly under water. I have no problem doing that, and my colleagues trust me when I say I'm too busy.

But I now find myself responsible for larger parts of cases (either on my own or managing a small group of juniors) for which there are simply not enough hours in the day/week/month to do it alone (or at least to do them right). I have no problems saying no to new matters, but it's the ones I'm already on that I'm struggling with. Nobody tells me what to do to meet a deadline (or even that it's mine to meet) - it's on me to make sure it gets done. I used to be able to power through anything put on my plate, but I simply can't do it all and I have a hard time asking for help.

There's an obvious answer here: I need to get better at : pushing work down, managing juniors, staffing matters, and planning ahead. So I'm wondering if anybody has some anecdotes/tips that helped them learn these skills faster. What does "saying no" look like to you as you become more senior and take on more responsibility?

Dude - what? You're taking on more work even when pacing 2600 hours?

I generally just start to say no when I'm starting to pace at 200 hours/month. I figured 200 is my breaking point where I can sustain that for like several months in a row without feeling terrible but anymore and I just can't.

I think my point was that it's not so simple. I'm not "taking on more work." I haven't said yes to a new case in months. The problem is that I have responsibility for a case (or certain parts of a case), so anything that comes up on that is presumptively mine to deal with. Nobody says "can you help with X" - they just expect me to do it. I can't say no when nobody asks.

Ohh gotcha, sorry about that. You mean you take on work, that work explodes beyond what is reasonable, and then you don't know what to do with it.

I'm a mid-level in a different practice area (M&A), so this advice may not work, but I honestly just pick and choose my battles. If I'm overwhelmed, and there's two matters going crazy at the same time, I focus on the one with worse staffing.

For example, if I have a really good second year under me on a deal, I'll just stop paying attention/step away and pray that they can step up.

Probably not the greatest management tactic because it means you're overburdening your star players while the underperformers skate by because they have my supervision; however, I have no real solution for this. It's actually kind of a vicious cycle because that added experience makes the good junior even better/more advanced and then I can pile on more.

I also go for consistency in staffing. If I've worked with you before and know you can handle certain processes adequately, I'm just skimming over your work product.

All first-years are kind of a crapshoot of varying ability levels, but I've found that the ones that ask the most questions develop into the best. I've had juniors that were phenomenal in the beginning - great attention to detail, clean work product, etc. - but they didn't take initiative, ask questions or reach up for more substantive work and their skills stagnated. Whereas, I've had others that weren't so great to start but they were eager and interested.

It's annoying to deal with them in the beginning when they're not very good and asking you a lot of questions, but I've found it pays off to make that initial investment.

If I'm really underwater and can't handle it, I'll talk to the partner and let them know why I'm underwater/why this deal is turning out to be a lot more work than we initially thought and ask for more staffing. More staffing isn't always the answer, but there's enough discrete elements in m&a that if I get more staffing, I don't need to run the whole show (for example, we can have one mid-level run the SPA/merger agreement and another mid-level run process for diligence/disclosure schedules).

Idk how applicable this is to your firm/litigation where staffing may be tighter and there may be less discrete tasks like this, but I think if you can you should delegate as much as possible when busy. If someone below you screws up, it'll probably come back to bite you, and you just sorta eat that. I can choose to not sleep and have no social life forever, or I can choose to have an uncomfortable conversation every rare occasion with a partner or client on why things didn't go right. I choose the latter every time.

Edit: Adding to the above regarding delegating to juniors. The most harmful thing you can do to yourself is cut your juniors out of the conversation. Some lawyers I know do this because they're embarrassed to show their juniors they may not know something or they screwed something up. You're really only harming yourself because if they're getting tasks in a vacuum with no context or history, they're going to turn in shitty work that you have to spend time fixing. I keep my juniors CC'd pretty much on every communication unless a partner has explicitly told me not to. If I get a one-off email from a partner or client, I forward it to my juniors as an FYI.

[existentialcrisis]

This is not another quiet quitting thread. I'm a midlevel in a specialty area of litigation at a V25. I generally like what I do and don't mind working long/odd hours (never fallen below 2600). But as I become more senior I find it harder and harder to manage my workload. As a junior, I would get "assignments" from seniors/partners that I could always say no to if I was truly under water. I have no problem doing that, and my colleagues trust me when I say I'm too busy.

But I now find myself responsible for larger parts of cases (either on my own or managing a small group of juniors) for which there are simply not enough hours in the day/week/month to do it alone (or at least to do them right). I have no problems saying no to new matters, but it's the ones I'm already on that I'm struggling with. Nobody tells me what to do to meet a deadline (or even that it's mine to meet) - it's on me to make sure it gets done. I used to be able to power through anything put on my plate, but I simply can't do it all and I have a hard time asking for help.

There's an obvious answer here: I need to get better at : pushing work down, managing juniors, staffing matters, and planning ahead. So I'm wondering if anybody has some anecdotes/tips that helped them learn these skills faster. What does "saying no" look like to you as you become more senior and take on more responsibility?

Dude - what? You're taking on more work even when pacing 2600 hours?

I generally just start to say no when I'm starting to pace at 200 hours/month. I figured 200 is my breaking point where I can sustain that for like several months in a row without feeling terrible but anymore and I just can't.

I think my point was that it's not so simple. I'm not "taking on more work." I haven't said yes to a new case in months. The problem is that I have responsibility for a case (or certain parts of a case), so anything that comes up on that is presumptively mine to deal with. Nobody says "can you help with X" - they just expect me to do it. I can't say no when nobody asks.

Ohh gotcha, sorry about that. You mean you take on work, that work explodes beyond what is reasonable, and then you don't know what to do with it.

I'm a mid-level in a different practice area (M&A), so this advice may not work, but I honestly just pick and choose my battles. If I'm overwhelmed, and there's two matters going crazy at the same time, I focus on the one with worse staffing.

For example, if I have a really good second year under me on a deal, I'll just stop paying attention/step away and pray that they can step up.

Probably not the greatest management tactic because it means you're overburdening your star players while the underperformers skate by because they have my supervision; however, I have no real solution for this. It's actually kind of a vicious cycle because that added experience makes the good junior even better/more advanced and then I can pile on more.

I also go for consistency in staffing. If I've worked with you before and know you can handle certain processes adequately, I'm just skimming over your work product.

All first-years are kind of a crapshoot of varying ability levels, but I've found that the ones that ask the most questions develop into the best. I've had juniors that were phenomenal in the beginning - great attention to detail, clean work product, etc. - but they didn't take initiative, ask questions or reach up for more substantive work and their skills stagnated. Whereas, I've had others that weren't so great to start but they were eager and interested.

It's annoying to deal with them in the beginning when they're not very good and asking you a lot of questions, but I've found it pays off to make that initial investment.

If I'm really underwater and can't handle it, I'll talk to the partner and let them know why I'm underwater/why this deal is turning out to be a lot more work than we initially thought and ask for more staffing. More staffing isn't always the answer, but there's enough discrete elements in m&a that if I get more staffing, I don't need to run the whole show (for example, we can have one mid-level run the SPA/merger agreement and another mid-level run process for diligence/disclosure schedules).

Idk how applicable this is to your firm/litigation where staffing may be tighter and there may be less discrete tasks like this, but I think if you can you should delegate as much as possible when busy. If someone below you screws up, it'll probably come back to bite you, and you just sorta eat that. I can choose to not sleep and have no social life forever, or I can choose to have an uncomfortable conversation every rare occasion with a partner or client on why things didn't go right. I choose the latter every time.

Edit: Adding to the above regarding delegating to juniors. The most harmful thing you can do to yourself is cut your juniors out of the conversation. Some lawyers I know do this because they're embarrassed to show their juniors they may not know something or they screwed something up. You're really only harming yourself because if they're getting tasks in a vacuum with no context or history, they're going to turn in shitty work that you have to spend time fixing. I keep my juniors CC'd pretty much on every communication unless a partner has explicitly told me not to. If I get a one-off email from a partner or client, I forward it to my juniors as an FYI.

This is all great advice.

[Anonymous User]

Dude - what? You're taking on more work even when pacing 2600 hours?

You must be so far above your group/firm average - what are you even doing.

[Anonymous User]

Dude - what? You're taking on more work even when pacing 2600 hours?

You must be so far above your group/firm average - what are you even doing.

You revived a 10 day old thread just to say this anonymously - what are you even doing?

[Anonymous User]

Obviously someone isn’t billing enough….

[Anonymous User]

Obviously someone isn’t billing enough….

You revived a 10 day old thread just to say this anonymously - what are you even doing?

I just hit my 2,000 and am ducking work rest of year, obviously. If we don't get bonuses under 2000, why should we work past 2000 hours.

[Anonymous User]

Obviously someone isn’t billing enough….

You revived a 10 day old thread just to say this anonymously - what are you even doing?

I just hit my 2,000 and am ducking work rest of year, obviously. If we don't get bonuses under 2000, why should we work past 2000 hours.

Yeah odd post from OP. OP if you don’t mind long hours why do you need to say no?

[Anonymous User]

Yeah odd post from OP. OP if you don’t mind long hours why do you need to say no?

This is OP - thanks for getting this somewhat back on track and away from a useless hours debate. As I said pretty clearly in my OP, I need to say no because there are literally not enough hours to tackle what I have on my plate at various points in time. It's not a question of saying no because it's just expected that I will (and can) do all of it. As others have said, I need to get better at planning ahead and delegating, and tips on those topics have been really helpful. It's just not a skill I have exercised much before because, as my hours betray, I normally just grin and bear it.

[Lacepiece23]

Yeah odd post from OP. OP if you don’t mind long hours why do you need to say no?

This is OP - thanks for getting this somewhat back on track and away from a useless hours debate. As I said pretty clearly in my OP, I need to say no because there are literally not enough hours to tackle what I have on my plate at various points in time. It's not a question of saying no because it's just expected that I will (and can) do all of it. As others have said, I need to get better at planning ahead and delegating, and tips on those topics have been really helpful. It's just not a skill I have exercised much before because, as my hours betray, I normally just grin and bear it.

Every Sunday, go through your matters and make a list of things that need doing. Then, after you’ve made your list, go through and delegate tasks that don’t have to be done by you. You will thank me later.