RTO (Not going to go in) Forum

[nickofdime]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

Highly firm dependent, but my V25 in non-DC/NYC is pretty lax despite a 3 day mandate. I shoot for 2 days when I can, but I also haven't been in in like 2 weeks. I know partners who are the same way. Try taking the temperature of your colleagues, as that will be the best indicator of what your firm ends up doing.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

There is a middle ground between not going in the entire three days a week, and only going in "when absolutely necessary." Completely ignoring the mandate unless someone specifically schedules you to come in will likely get noticed. Skipping weeks occasionally, or coming in for two days rather than three, likely won't.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

I think a fair number of folks are treating it similarly to you, but I think the tide will start turning when the market for legal talent tightens and/or firms start using it as an excuse to cut bonuses for folks not adhering to the RTO policy.

[Anonymous User]

There was/is a big push at my firm to bring people back 3 days a week ostensibly to welcome/integrate the stubs and 1st years who haven't been in person and met everyone. There was a large dept meeting on the first day back. Roughly two thirds of the attorneys were there. Most were openly derisive of the new policy under their breath. Several flat out said to me in one-on-ones, "if they want to enforce this, they can just fire me" and I haven't seen them since. As far as I can tell, nobody has been fired in the month since. I'd say roughly 75% of the associates are physically in the office one morning a week, usually Tuesday or Wednesday. Maybe half make it the full day once a week. Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays are absolutely dead in the office except for a half dozen partners and the stubs.

[Anonymous User]

Why are folks so butt hurt about doing the absolute minimum (showing up)?

I mean, we're making well into six-figures strictly for our availability.

This lends credence to the notion that we're the overly-entitled 'everybody-gets-a-trophy' generation.

This is oppression? Look how people live.

I'm disgusted.

I imagine those who fail to get in line will be the first to go when the wave of recession layoffs ensue...

User Merger Queen outed for anon abuse

[Anonymous User]

Why are folks so butt hurt about doing the absolute minimum (showing up)?

I mean, we're making well into six-figures strictly for our availability.

This lends credence to the notion that we're the overly-entitled 'everybody-gets-a-trophy' generation.

This is oppression? Look how people live.

I'm disgusted.

I imagine those who fail to get in line will be the first to go when the wave of recession layoffs ensue...

Redline psycho is that you?

[Anonymous User]

Why are folks so butt hurt about doing the absolute minimum (showing up)?

I mean, we're making well into six-figures strictly for our availability.

This lends credence to the notion that we're the overly-entitled 'everybody-gets-a-trophy' generation.

This is oppression? Look how people live.

I'm disgusted.

I imagine those who fail to get in line will be the first to go when the wave of recession layoffs ensue...

Easy there, boot licker. V20 firms are putting 3rd years into four person bullpens and pretending that’s normal … the office environment has totally deteriorated since COVID.

[Anonymous User]

Do you have a long commute? If not, what's so bad about going into the office a couple times a week?

If you care about your future at your firm, I'd recommend complying, or detailing extenuating circumstances to HR and getting some kind of official waiver. The economy stinks, and firms are going to be looking for easy ways to cut bonuses, or even headcount, and RTO compliance is low hanging fruit.

If you don't care about staying at the firm much longer, then whatever, do you - probably a pretty long runway before any real consequences to not showing up.

[Anonymous User]

Are there any firms still not requiring RTO (think Quinn, Goodwin, KE)?

[MergerQueen]

Are there any firms still not requiring RTO (think Quinn, Goodwin, KE)?

Heard Goodwin told some folks to never, ever come back. But I don't think this is quite what you're seeking.

[Anonymous User]

Why are folks so butt hurt about doing the absolute minimum (showing up)?

I mean, we're making well into six-figures strictly for our availability.

This lends credence to the notion that we're the overly-entitled 'everybody-gets-a-trophy' generation.

This is oppression? Look how people live.

I'm disgusted.

I imagine those who fail to get in line will be the first to go when the wave of recession layoffs ensue...

Easy there, boot licker. V20 firms are putting 3rd years into four person bullpens and pretending that’s normal … the office environment has totally deteriorated since COVID.

Which "V20" is doing this? Provide substantiation or you're done here.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

definitely please attempt “mass disobedience” and report back on the results

[Anonymous User]

Are there any firms still not requiring RTO (think Quinn, Goodwin, KE)?

Heard Goodwin told some folks to never, ever come back. But I don't think this is quite what you're seeking.

Zing lol

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, it really depends. Lawyers are notoriously risk averse, which means this is an uphill battle. Ideally, and this would happen in many other industries, employees would recognize it is stupid, band together, and not go in. In law, people recognize it is stupid, then go in anyway because they're afraid/think this is their shot to get to the top.

It would be relatively simple if everybody in a group just did not go in. That would be the end of it. In reality, even if you somehow have good rapport with your colleagues and you agree to not go in, some genius will go in. This will cause others to worry about their prospects and feel peer pressure, causing a domino effect. Then they also go in for "just a couple days." Give it another month or two and everybody will be in 3-4 days a week, and you're home alone as the sole objector and people are trashing you behind your back because you have the gall to not come in, even though they actually all want to do what you do.

So, in the end, you can not go in and risk it a bit. I don't go in. Ever, despite it being mandated for the past 6 months. It's been fine so far. Or you can play it a bit safer and just come in 1-2 days a week. You will probably fly under the radar and be able to do that ad infinitum.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a first year at a firm that mandates 3-4 days a week, and people are complying. Really wish I had chosen a different firm. Or maybe it's a NY biglaw thing?

[Anonymous User]

I'm at a V25 that has a 3-day-in policy. A few observations:

1) The management of the firm obviously genuinely cares about people coming in; this isn't just a lip-service thing they believe that attorneys being in the office is essential for maintaining culture and performance.

2) There has been a definite uptick in people coming in after Labor Day. I feel like many people used that as a line in the sand and said "once we're through summer, I guess I'll start."

3) That said, compliance isn't close to 100%. I'd guess maybe 50% of attorneys (skewed younger) are coming in all 3 days. Maybe 75% are doing at least 1-2 days.

4) There is a hardcore contingent of people who have obviously made the decision that they aren't ever coming in unless they're literally threatened with termination (and maybe not even then). I think these are people w/ particular family, commute situations or who were always just highly antisocial and were waiting for this moment all their lives.

5) There's a (smaller) hardcore contingent of people (skewed older) who you can tell would give everything to have the office forced back in 5 days a week -- older boomer / gen X types and then some superstriver younger partners.

Just some notes from the ground. My guess is firms are going to push increasingly hard to get people to adhere to the 3-day a week thing, particularly since they've given up on Mondays and Fridays. But there's a natural limit to how hard they can push; they may need to use incentives ($100 more into your paycheck for every day you swipe in!) because you can't totally enforce a 3-day-in thing since attorneys are traveling too--monitoring compliance would be almost impossible.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

Today technically is an anchor day. I woke up to go in but missed the train (actually) from Boston, so I guess my "disobedience" takes this lame form today, but I hope it helps. I have a feeling people will comply until covid comes back through the city. The question is, do you, as an individual, have enough leverage not to comply, including enough work to bill over the next few months? I think going in a few times between now and December is probably the best policy, just to literally show your face. I have no intention to comply with multiple days, however. I let go of my lease in New York and have been aggressively saving every penny for a few months. Goal is to go enough not to be fired at this December review (which would be unlikely based on my practice) and to reassess after the winter if I want to keep the job for another year or if I've saved enough to maybe move on to my next job (if I do want to work through to 2024, then maybe I'll go in more).

As to the poster above, I think I'm #4. The pandemic has really changed me and I am definitely less social -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything and don't feel like going to the office is where I will derive that meaning for me. I guess that means I need a new job. But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? I feel that people keep speaking about those of us in the #4 category like we're just the equivalent of legal industry serial killers who never wanted to come in because it cuts into our backwoods murdering time, and therefore we deserve to have our livelihoods threatened for what was, only months ago, complying with the constantly changing mandates. At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

I don't mind and often genuinely enjoy my job, even from home, and I want to do good work for the firm. But, my life (including financially with how expensive the city is now and the never ending uncertainty with student loan debt -- I have 200k+) I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. Not that this is anybody's problem but my own. I couldn't have known graduating in 2020 what would happen to me these last two years. It's not spiteful, I'm just trying to fucking make it. But, firm management (the whole industry over) is just wildly disconnected with reality for some of us. It makes me depressed to feel like I've failed at even this simple thing and yet it is literally so untenable for my life right now that I don't know what else I can do but fail.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, it really depends. Lawyers are notoriously risk averse, which means this is an uphill battle. Ideally, and this would happen in many other industries, employees would recognize it is stupid, band together, and not go in. In law, people recognize it is stupid, then go in anyway because they're afraid/think this is their shot to get to the top.

Hot take: If you actually want to have a career at the firm and/or care about your long-term development there, I don't think coming in a few days a week is stupid at all. Sitting in our houses on Zoom all day, in our pajamas, talking to our cats, isn't normal. If you view your time at the firm as a 12-24 month stopping off point before you jump in-house, then I could see the other perspective (basically, who gives a shit) but know you're just delaying the inevitable because industry is pushing for RTO too. This fantasy that we're all going to just work from home in our pajamas with video cameras forever is just that, a fantasy; it ain't healthy for employers or employees. All that said, I do think the 5-day in-office work week died during COVID for most white collar setups.

[TUwave]

Are there any firms still not requiring RTO (think Quinn, Goodwin, KE)?

Heard Goodwin told some folks to never, ever come back. But I don't think this is quite what you're seeking.

Zing lol

At least they were brave enough to put their name on it this time.

[RedNewJersey]

The pandemic has really changed me ... -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything .... But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? ... At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

... I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. ...

To me, this does not sound like a work issue, but the beginnings of depression. I understand that for you "society has become unappealing" and you struggle to save money, but I would question which societies at what points in history you would suggest are better. Things could be better, but it's hard to think of that many places or times I'd rather live in.

[Anonymous User]

The pandemic has really changed me ... -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything .... But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? ... At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

... I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. ...

To me, this does not sound like a work issue, but the beginnings of depression. I understand that for you "society has become unappealing" and you struggle to save money, but I would question which societies at what points in history you would suggest are better. Things could be better, but it's hard to think of that many places or times I'd rather live in.

OP here -- I don't think you're literally qualified to diagnose depression in me, especially in light of the recent turn of events, including the increase in cost of living which has been dramatic, even for my lifetime of rising costs, and the pressure of being constantly in debt, on top of a global pandemic. It's really not your place to throw diagnoses around on the internet, especially because, if society has gotten worse (it has), then there is little more to do other than medicate. I am personally deciding whether this job is worth medicating for.

Anyway, even if I am depressed in the alternative, there are hundreds if not thousands of depressed big law attorneys working through these circumstances. You can brush our experiences off as "not work place issues," and "us problems," but the extent to which these types of 24-7 availability jobs exacerbate and cause depression in adults is, at this point, fairly well documented. Further, this issue starts early in a legal professional's career -- it's not for no reason that 40% of law students finish their first year with substance abuse issues. It is absolutely a work-quality of life issue, and one that people deserve to be heard about. Unless, only perfectly happy people who never face depression are the only ones who deserve not to have their livelihoods threatened (in the middle of a global pandemic, and good luck come December to those who'd argue "but that's over").

If it were just a "me problem," I'd be out of debt, quitting this job, and on to things that actually do make me happy.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

Today technically is an anchor day. I woke up to go in but missed the train (actually) from Boston, so I guess my "disobedience" takes this lame form today, but I hope it helps. I have a feeling people will comply until covid comes back through the city. The question is, do you, as an individual, have enough leverage not to comply, including enough work to bill over the next few months? I think going in a few times between now and December is probably the best policy, just to literally show your face. I have no intention to comply with multiple days, however. I let go of my lease in New York and have been aggressively saving every penny for a few months. Goal is to go enough not to be fired at this December review (which would be unlikely based on my practice) and to reassess after the winter if I want to keep the job for another year or if I've saved enough to maybe move on to my next job (if I do want to work through to 2024, then maybe I'll go in more).

As to the poster above, I think I'm #4. The pandemic has really changed me and I am definitely less social -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything and don't feel like going to the office is where I will derive that meaning for me. I guess that means I need a new job. But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? I feel that people keep speaking about those of us in the #4 category like we're just the equivalent of legal industry serial killers who never wanted to come in because it cuts into our backwoods murdering time, and therefore we deserve to have our livelihoods threatened for what was, only months ago, complying with the constantly changing mandates. At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

I don't mind and often genuinely enjoy my job, even from home, and I want to do good work for the firm. But, my life (including financially with how expensive the city is now and the never ending uncertainty with student loan debt -- I have 200k+) I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. Not that this is anybody's problem but my own. I couldn't have known graduating in 2020 what would happen to me these last two years. It's not spiteful, I'm just trying to fucking make it. But, firm management (the whole industry over) is just wildly disconnected with reality for some of us. It makes me depressed to feel like I've failed at even this simple thing and yet it is literally so untenable for my life right now that I don't know what else I can do but fail.

This is where it lost me. Certainly midlevel salaries don't buy us the nicest penthouse in Manhattan, but I don't think it's realistic to say we can't afford to live anywhere near the office (in any city). Certainly the world has gotten more expensive, but we have also seen salary increases (we can debate in another thread about whether those raises really beat inflation or not, but the point stands that we can afford a decently nice place to sleep and to eat).

This job is tough and you shouldn't have to feel like a failure because it is very hard and requires a lot of sacrifice, which many people decide is ultimately not worth it, and those people still go on to have very rewarding/successful careers.

[Anonymous User]

If I were still in big law, I"d probably test the waters more incrementally. If the "mandate" is 3 days in per week, I'd comply for a few weeks, then I'd start doing 2 days in every now and then, until that becomes the norm. If no one seems to notice, I'd stick with it, and maybe do 1 day per week here and there, though not a majority of weeks. That way, you reclaim some of that time, without making it so blatantly clear that you are refusing to comply. If you want to stick it to the firm that openly, then you might as well leave and find a place more in line with your current expectations. Otherwise, I'd be a bit more strategic about it.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a third year and our firm has requested 3 days a week mandatory this week onwards. I don't plan to go in except when absolutely necessary. How are folks in other folks handling RTO mandates? Is it mass disobedience or are we just falling in line and letting go of what is the only way to sustain this lifestyle?

Today technically is an anchor day. I woke up to go in but missed the train (actually) from Boston, so I guess my "disobedience" takes this lame form today, but I hope it helps. I have a feeling people will comply until covid comes back through the city. The question is, do you, as an individual, have enough leverage not to comply, including enough work to bill over the next few months? I think going in a few times between now and December is probably the best policy, just to literally show your face. I have no intention to comply with multiple days, however. I let go of my lease in New York and have been aggressively saving every penny for a few months. Goal is to go enough not to be fired at this December review (which would be unlikely based on my practice) and to reassess after the winter if I want to keep the job for another year or if I've saved enough to maybe move on to my next job (if I do want to work through to 2024, then maybe I'll go in more).

As to the poster above, I think I'm #4. The pandemic has really changed me and I am definitely less social -- but, can you blame me? I think society has become unappealing and little is compelling about it, people are meaner, everything is more expensive and dangerous, etc. I personally don't feel connected to anyone or anything and don't feel like going to the office is where I will derive that meaning for me. I guess that means I need a new job. But, how was I supposed to know how I would react to simultaneous global crisis that ripped through my 20s and took society away? I feel that people keep speaking about those of us in the #4 category like we're just the equivalent of legal industry serial killers who never wanted to come in because it cuts into our backwoods murdering time, and therefore we deserve to have our livelihoods threatened for what was, only months ago, complying with the constantly changing mandates. At a certain point, it's just too much stress for little return.

I don't mind and often genuinely enjoy my job, even from home, and I want to do good work for the firm. But, my life (including financially with how expensive the city is now and the never ending uncertainty with student loan debt -- I have 200k+) I really just cannot afford a 3 day return to office. I would love to keep my job, but honestly feel priced out of the city. Prior to losing my lease I had no money at the end of the month with my SLD payments. been doing this job for about 3 years and I only had about $4,000 saved. It just is less profitable for me to do what they're asking than it is to move to regional mid law. Not that this is anybody's problem but my own. I couldn't have known graduating in 2020 what would happen to me these last two years. It's not spiteful, I'm just trying to fucking make it. But, firm management (the whole industry over) is just wildly disconnected with reality for some of us. It makes me depressed to feel like I've failed at even this simple thing and yet it is literally so untenable for my life right now that I don't know what else I can do but fail.

This is where it lost me. Certainly midlevel salaries don't buy us the nicest penthouse in Manhattan, but I don't think it's realistic to say we can't afford to live anywhere near the office (in any city). Certainly the world has gotten more expensive, but we have also seen salary increases (we can debate in another thread about whether those raises really beat inflation or not, but the point stands that we can afford a decently nice place to sleep and to eat).

This job is tough and you shouldn't have to feel like a failure because it is very hard and requires a lot of sacrifice, which many people decide is ultimately not worth it, and those people still go on to have very rewarding/successful careers.

Ok, let me ask you a question: You're 270,000 in debt. You take home about $10,000 a month. Rent in a safe commutable distance to work is conservatively, for one person, between $3,000-$5,000 a month. Ok, so let's go with the middle say I'm paying somewhere around $4000-4,500 just on a place to live. That's about 45% of my income. Then let's tack on $4,000 a month in student loan payments because remember, these jobs aren't forever, and who knows when they'll start the loans back and if I don't keep aggressively paying I'll be back in a situation with interest compounding at 7%! Thank god I managed to stop paying interest...four months ago! So, where are we, around $8,000 in budget? And how much does it cost to eat in NYC? Say $300-700 a month? Would you do this job and return to office if you only took home about $1000 a month or less? (obviously I regret going to law school, but here I am.)