Cooley: What's the Worst that Can Happen (Full-Ride) Forum

[aspiring0L]

Let's say a friend grew up in a nice suburb of Detroit (Grosse Point) and has a phenomenal job there after going to U. Michigan (BS in computer science) . Maybe he works at a fund like Huron or in a SWE/management role at Ford or GM, clearing six figures at age 23 . He is seen as a rising star in the corporate world . The only issue here is that he has a burning passion for the law, he can't get enough of movies like My Cousin Vinnie, novels by John Grisham, and firm gossip on TLS . Unable to leave his cushy salary that will enjoy compounding interest since he is earning decent money at a young age, he can't return to Ann Arbor for a full-time program despite his 175 LSAT . The problem seems solved when he discovers Lansing has an evening and weekend law program which will lead to his JD and eventually license ! After cursory research he discovers it is not exactly respected . What should our young Detroit-based financier do ? In other words, with a full-ride and no lost opportunity cost employment-wise, what is the worst outcome from attending Cooley ?

[jhett]

The worst? You waste time and money getting a degree from a school that absolutely does not help you in any way career-wise.

If your "friend" is OK with that outcome, they can go ahead.

One alternate possibility is to inquire whether the inverse is possible: attend law school full-time while working part-time at the current employer (possibly with financial assistance for school). This usually comes with a promise to return to the company post-graduation, for example transferring into the legal department.

[aspiring0L]

The worst? You waste time and money getting a degree from a school that absolutely does not help you in any way career-wise.

If your "friend" is OK with that outcome, they can go ahead.

One alternate possibility is to inquire whether the inverse is possible: attend law school full-time while working part-time at the current employer (possibly with financial assistance for school). This usually comes with a promise to return to the company post-graduation, for example transferring into the legal department.

I said full-ride so aside from gas money there is no financial cost. Regarding time, my friend just craves anything law-related. Podcasts, court TV, you name it and he wants in.

Those companies won't be paying for that, they don't think a JD would help with financial modeling/SWE/business management.

Thank you for your input, it seems not much of anything can go wrong with some weekends back on campus in Lansing or one or two nights a week with some exciting lectures.

[Anonymous User]

Nothing is worse than the emoji abuse. Nothing.

Also this is the troll from the doctor thread, so whatever man you're not gonna listen anyway.

[aspiring0L]

Nothing is worse than the emoji abuse. Nothing.

Also this is the troll from the doctor thread, so whatever man you're not gonna listen anyway.

Even Cooley at sticker with a 136 LSAT?

This is not for me to listen, this is for my "friend."

[Sackboy]

Mods, just ban this user. They're not even an interesting troll.

[aspiring0L]

Mods, just ban this user. They're not even an interesting troll.

Not a troll. And my last post garnered four pages of input from other users. Seems to be some interest.

[aspiring0L]

Mods, you're the dumbest motherfuckers if you don't ban this troll.

Wow, that is a good way to get in their good graces. You seem well-grounded and mature.

[nixy]

Although you're a troll, I'll bite because someone else might have a similar question:

The worst? You waste time and money getting a degree from a school that absolutely does not help you in any way career-wise.

The above is the right answer. There are always a few people with good outcomes from Cooley, but the worst outcome is that it costs you money and time - in this scenario, mostly time. You're not likely to get a job out of Cooley that will compete with your current cushy salary, and if you don't want to give up the salary to go to law school I don't see you wanting to give it up to practice law.

The biggest red flag is that the scenario you outline doesn't include any interest in practicing law - being into law-related stuff and having a passion for John Grisham, My Cousin Vinnie, and firm gossip has nothing to do with actually practicing law. And going to law school just because you find law interesting is a huge waste of time, since it's intended to get you a license to practice, not to indulge an intellectual passion. (Nor do I think Cooley is a great place to indulge an intellectual passion since the teaching will be geared to the accepted student body.)

So given that law school probably won't really scratch your "I love the law!" itch (because movies, books, and firm gossip on TLS aren't an accurate representation of what law school or legal practice are like), it doesn't really sound like you want to practice law, and it will still actually be a fair amount of work on top of a full-time job, it seems pretty pointless even if it won't cost literal money, but if that's how you/your "friend" wants to spend their time, that's cool. Your/their choice.

[aspiring0L]

Although you're a troll, I'll bite because someone else might have a similar question:

The worst? You waste time and money getting a degree from a school that absolutely does not help you in any way career-wise.

The above is the right answer. There are always a few people with good outcomes from Cooley, but the worst outcome is that it costs you money and time - in this scenario, mostly time. You're not likely to get a job out of Cooley that will compete with your current cushy salary, and if you don't want to give up the salary to go to law school I don't see you wanting to give it up to practice law.

The biggest red flag is that the scenario you outline doesn't include any interest in practicing law - being into law-related stuff and having a passion for John Grisham, My Cousin Vinnie, and firm gossip has nothing to do with actually practicing law. And going to law school just because you find law interesting is a huge waste of time, since it's intended to get you a license to practice, not to indulge an intellectual passion. (Nor do I think Cooley is a great place to indulge an intellectual passion since the teaching will be geared to the accepted student body.)

So given that law school probably won't really scratch your "I love the law!" itch (because movies, books, and firm gossip on TLS aren't an accurate representation of what law school or legal practice are like), it doesn't really sound like you want to practice law, and it will still actually be a fair amount of work on top of a full-time job, it seems pretty pointless even if it won't cost literal money, but if that's how you/your "friend" wants to spend their time, that's cool. Your/their choice.

My friend, even with a JD and license, does not want to practice or leave his current well-compensated/reasonable hours job. Good to know that there are "good outcomes from Cooley" and for it to be expressed so forcefully.

What do you mean by "geared to the accepted student body?"

[nixy]

Although you're a troll, I'll bite because someone else might have a similar question:

The worst? You waste time and money getting a degree from a school that absolutely does not help you in any way career-wise.

The above is the right answer. There are always a few people with good outcomes from Cooley, but the worst outcome is that it costs you money and time - in this scenario, mostly time. You're not likely to get a job out of Cooley that will compete with your current cushy salary, and if you don't want to give up the salary to go to law school I don't see you wanting to give it up to practice law.

The biggest red flag is that the scenario you outline doesn't include any interest in practicing law - being into law-related stuff and having a passion for John Grisham, My Cousin Vinnie, and firm gossip has nothing to do with actually practicing law. And going to law school just because you find law interesting is a huge waste of time, since it's intended to get you a license to practice, not to indulge an intellectual passion. (Nor do I think Cooley is a great place to indulge an intellectual passion since the teaching will be geared to the accepted student body.)

So given that law school probably won't really scratch your "I love the law!" itch (because movies, books, and firm gossip on TLS aren't an accurate representation of what law school or legal practice are like), it doesn't really sound like you want to practice law, and it will still actually be a fair amount of work on top of a full-time job, it seems pretty pointless even if it won't cost literal money, but if that's how you/your "friend" wants to spend their time, that's cool. Your/their choice.

My friend, even with a JD and license, does not want to practice or leave his current well-compensated/reasonable hours job. Good to know that there are "good outcomes from Cooley" and for it to be expressed so forcefully.

What do you mean by "geared to the accepted student body?"

By "geared to the accepted student body" I mean that Cooley accepts pretty much anyone, so that there will be a significant number in the class (not all, but a significant number) who are the kind of students you deplore at the community colleges that Dr. Jill Biden wrote about. That may not contribute to the kind of intellectual experience someone with a passion for law wants (I suppose it depends on the person).

There are always a few people who do well coming out of Cooley, but by definition those are people going into law. Someone who doesn't want to practice shouldn't go to law school at all, because they're seeking a different outcome than law school is designed to provide. (If someone does go to Cooley looking to practice law, the problem is that there's no guarantee they'll get one of the very few good outcomes.)

It's a huge waste of time to go to law school if you don't want to practice law. But it's your time (or whoever's) to waste.

[aspiring0L]

Although you're a troll, I'll bite because someone else might have a similar question:

The worst? You waste time and money getting a degree from a school that absolutely does not help you in any way career-wise.

The above is the right answer. There are always a few people with good outcomes from Cooley, but the worst outcome is that it costs you money and time - in this scenario, mostly time. You're not likely to get a job out of Cooley that will compete with your current cushy salary, and if you don't want to give up the salary to go to law school I don't see you wanting to give it up to practice law.

The biggest red flag is that the scenario you outline doesn't include any interest in practicing law - being into law-related stuff and having a passion for John Grisham, My Cousin Vinnie, and firm gossip has nothing to do with actually practicing law. And going to law school just because you find law interesting is a huge waste of time, since it's intended to get you a license to practice, not to indulge an intellectual passion. (Nor do I think Cooley is a great place to indulge an intellectual passion since the teaching will be geared to the accepted student body.)

So given that law school probably won't really scratch your "I love the law!" itch (because movies, books, and firm gossip on TLS aren't an accurate representation of what law school or legal practice are like), it doesn't really sound like you want to practice law, and it will still actually be a fair amount of work on top of a full-time job, it seems pretty pointless even if it won't cost literal money, but if that's how you/your "friend" wants to spend their time, that's cool. Your/their choice.

My friend, even with a JD and license, does not want to practice or leave his current well-compensated/reasonable hours job. Good to know that there are "good outcomes from Cooley" and for it to be expressed so forcefully.

What do you mean by "geared to the accepted student body?"

By "geared to the accepted student body" I mean that Cooley accepts pretty much anyone, so that there will be a significant number in the class (not all, but a significant number) who are the kind of students you deplore at the community colleges that Dr. Jill Biden wrote about. That may not contribute to the kind of intellectual experience someone with a passion for law wants (I suppose it depends on the person).

There are always a few people who do well coming out of Cooley, but by definition those are people going into law. Someone who doesn't want to practice shouldn't go to law school at all, because they're seeking a different outcome than law school is designed to provide. (If someone does go to Cooley looking to practice law, the problem is that there's no guarantee they'll get one of the very few good outcomes.)

It's a huge waste of time to go to law school if you don't want to practice law. But it's your time (or whoever's) to waste.

Roger that. Thing is that Cooley is known for having a very diverse student body and one that comes from a more varied socioeconomic strata than other law schools so one could interpret your comments very differently. Thank you for clarifying. My friend said that is one of the reasons the school catches a lot of flack, some old threads here on the school have very, very bigoted remarks.

[nixy]

Roger that. Thing is that Cooley is known for having a very diverse student body and one that comes from a more varied socioeconomic strata than other law schools so one could interpret your comments very differently. Thank you for clarifying. My friend said that is one of the reasons the school catches a lot of flack, some old threads here on the school have very, very bigoted remarks.

Oh damn, yeah, I just meant that you're looking at a critical mass of people with pretty low GPAs/LSATs - which doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be bad at law school, but many of them could be. Didn't mean to to imply anything else about the student body.

yeah, there have been some bad remarks along those lines here in the past. Cooley's obviously not trying to compete on academic standards with Yale and an argument for having a bunch of schools with low admissions standards is to help increase diversity, including socioeconomic diversity. It's contentious though because those schools often don't offer as much to their grads so they can be seen as exploitative as well, but yeah, some people will unfairly hold the diverse student body against the school.

[12YrsAnAssociate]

Don't go to Cooley. It will be a stain on this person's resume. People will actively disrespect this person for choosing to attend such a terrible school, and it will drown out all the impressive things this person has done so far in life.

And I get where this person is coming from. I also chose a lower ranked school because I got a full ride and could attend classes at night and keep my well-paying day job. But (1) it wasn't a school nearly as bad as Cooley. And (2) even now, long after graduation, my degree from a T50-75 school holds me back, so I regret not going elsewhere.

Can the person work remotely and go ANYWHERE else?

[aspiring0L]

Don't go to Cooley. It will be a stain on this person's resume. People will actively disrespect this person for choosing to attend such a terrible school, and it will drown out all the impressive things this person has done so far in life.

And I get where this person is coming from. I also chose a lower ranked school because I got a full ride and could attend classes at night and keep my well-paying day job. But (1) it wasn't a school nearly as bad as Cooley. And (2) even now, long after graduation, my degree from a T50-75 school holds me back, so I regret not going elsewhere.

Can the person work remotely and go ANYWHERE else?

I hear you, it is not ideal. Her job is not too demanding hours wise but she does not want to compromise on this. All her family and friends are in the Detroit area long with professional network, even three years in Ann Arbor is too much from her perspective.

How does it hold you back and are you in big law? Associate or partner? Any information is helpful as I relay it.

[12YrsAnAssociate]

Don't go to Cooley. It will be a stain on this person's resume. People will actively disrespect this person for choosing to attend such a terrible school, and it will drown out all the impressive things this person has done so far in life.

And I get where this person is coming from. I also chose a lower ranked school because I got a full ride and could attend classes at night and keep my well-paying day job. But (1) it wasn't a school nearly as bad as Cooley. And (2) even now, long after graduation, my degree from a T50-75 school holds me back, so I regret not going elsewhere.

Can the person work remotely and go ANYWHERE else?

I hear you, it is not ideal. Her job is not too demanding hours wise but she does not want to compromise on this. All her family and friends are in the Detroit area long with professional network, even three years in Ann Arbor is too much from her perspective.

How does it hold you back and are you in big law? Associate or partner? Any information is helpful as I relay it.

I'm in biglaw. I'm up for partner this year. My school holds me back because clients care and therefore the firm cares, so there have been opportunities I have missed out on. I don't blame anyone for these decisions. From the client's perspective they have no idea how good a lawyer is, so they look for indicators, like whether the lawyer went to a top school. And from the firm's perspective, they are in the business of selling their expertise to the clients, so the bells and whistles are part of convincing clients that they are the firm to hire.

But keep in mind that my school is FAR better than Cooley, and is FAR more respected than Cooley. I have worked at several biglaw firms and NONE of them would hire a Cooley grad. ZERO. Your friend should not go to law school if Cooley is the only choice.

[aspiring0L]

Don't go to Cooley. It will be a stain on this person's resume. People will actively disrespect this person for choosing to attend such a terrible school, and it will drown out all the impressive things this person has done so far in life.

And I get where this person is coming from. I also chose a lower ranked school because I got a full ride and could attend classes at night and keep my well-paying day job. But (1) it wasn't a school nearly as bad as Cooley. And (2) even now, long after graduation, my degree from a T50-75 school holds me back, so I regret not going elsewhere.

Can the person work remotely and go ANYWHERE else?

I hear you, it is not ideal. Her job is not too demanding hours wise but she does not want to compromise on this. All her family and friends are in the Detroit area long with professional network, even three years in Ann Arbor is too much from her perspective.

How does it hold you back and are you in big law? Associate or partner? Any information is helpful as I relay it.

I'm in biglaw. I'm up for partner this year. My school holds me back because clients care and therefore the firm cares, so there have been opportunities I have missed out on. I don't blame anyone for these decisions. From the client's perspective they have no idea how good a lawyer is, so they look for indicators, like whether the lawyer went to a top school. And from the firm's perspective, they are in the business of selling their expertise to the clients, so the bells and whistles are part of convincing clients that they are the firm to hire.

But keep in mind that my school is FAR better than Cooley, and is FAR more respected than Cooley. I have worked at several biglaw firms and NONE of them would hire a Cooley grad. ZERO. Your friend should not go to law school if Cooley is the only choice.

Understood, I am not trying to make it seem like a great school or give the impression firms are dying to hire their 3Ls. All I am saying, for my friend, is that (1) he or she has zero desire to practice given current employment and (2) some Cooley alums do enter big law. Maybe not at your current or past employers, but it does happen for alums who put in the leg work.

[Wubbles]

The friend is better off taking a bar prep course. Will teach them plenty of law and save time, while keeping their resume clean

[aspiring0L]

The friend is better off taking a bar prep course. Will teach them plenty of law and save time, while keeping their resume clean

While I get your point there is also the network to take into account and you do not get that from a bar prep course. You also lose out on the benefits of the Socratic method.

[Wubbles]

The friend is better off taking a bar prep course. Will teach them plenty of law and save time, while keeping their resume clean

While I get your point there is also the network to take into account and you do not get that from a bar prep course. You also lose out on the benefits of the Socratic method.

There aren't networking benefits to be gained for their current profession at Cooley.

The socratic method is useless and not necessarily even used in all classes.

[aspiring0L]

The friend is better off taking a bar prep course. Will teach them plenty of law and save time, while keeping their resume clean

While I get your point there is also the network to take into account and you do not get that from a bar prep course. You also lose out on the benefits of the Socratic method.

There aren't networking benefits to be gained for their current profession at Cooley.

The socratic method is useless and not necessarily even used in all classes.

Got it, would the network be useful if they practiced?

Seems like the worst that can happen at Cooley with a full-ride is not so bad.

[Anonymous User]

Sounds like your "friend" has made up her mind, so I guess I shouldn't waste my effort trying to explain why everything you've said is wrong, but I will anyways.

(1) Do Cooley grads get biglaw? I don't know. I actually doubt it, although I guess if you want to be very loose about what constitutes biglaw, sure. Maybe some Cooley grads land at some big firms. But the odds are unbelievably low, and the opportunity cost is very high. 99+% will NOT land biglaw. The odds are that your friend will not land biglaw. And for the rest of her life, she will have to admit that she wasted 3 years to go to a terrible law school that she got nothing out of.

(2) What network? Most of these students don't land a law job, let alone a reputable one.

(3) What benefit to the socratic method? How is this going to help her? This comment really shows that you know nothing and don't belong here.

This is my last response because I don't think you are even listening to the good advice you're getting here.

[Anonymous User]

whatever man you're not gonna listen anyway.

I tried to tell you guys

[aspiring0L]

Sounds like your "friend" has made up her mind, so I guess I shouldn't waste my effort trying to explain why everything you've said is wrong, but I will anyways.

(1) Do Cooley grads get biglaw? I don't know. I actually doubt it, although I guess if you want to be very loose about what constitutes biglaw, sure. Maybe some Cooley grads land at some big firms. But the odds are unbelievably low, and the opportunity cost is very high. 99+% will NOT land biglaw. The odds are that your friend will not land biglaw. And for the rest of her life, she will have to admit that she wasted 3 years to go to a terrible law school that she got nothing out of.

(2) What network? Most of these students don't land a law job, let alone a reputable one.

(3) What benefit to the socratic method? How is this going to help her? This comment really shows that you know nothing and don't belong here.

This is my last response because I don't think you are even listening to the good advice you're getting here.

He or she has not made up their mind so all input is useful. To address your points:

1. Yes, some of them get big law, a simple LinkedIn search will dispel any uncertainty you have. As said above, the opportunity cost is not much of a factor. At worst, he or she keeps their employment and graduates with a JD in their mid to late 20s and moves on. So what if they lost 1-2 nights a week taking classes? The odds are less than 50% an entering student at Fordham/GW/BC/BU/Irvine/Emory/Notre Dame will obtain big law, yet people advocate them all the time, especially with scholarship. This also does not take into account any positive regional reputation Cooley has in the Detroit metro. Many judges and public officials went there. Combine that with a BS from U. Michigan and you have a massive alumni network (including the growing Cooley one in Florida).

2. Most Cooley graduates have a law job. 40% are working in positions requiring a legal license, not including solos, and over 10% of alumni are solos because it is a specialized school geared towards that entrepreneurial track. Most alumni practice law. https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/cooley

3. As lawyers tout, ad nauseum, the Socratic method and legal education more generally teach people how to think, process information, and apply rigorous analysis. The Socratic method gives preparation in public speaking, being quick on one's feet, and dives deep into relevant material. Saying it is not helpful pretty much implies legal education is not helpful for anyone.

[aspiring0L]

whatever man you're not gonna listen anyway.

I tried to tell you guys

Why don't you read what I wrote rather than assuming my friend is taking out loans to enter big law from Cooley?